Helpful ReplyTightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular basis?

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panup
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2016/03/18 22:39:01 (permalink)

Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular basis?

I record real drumkits every week. Drums are good but drummers are not always.
I'm very used to fix timing issues manually but now I was wondering if AudioSnap is mature enough to speed up the boring, unmusical phase in song tracking.
 
This is what I did as a novice AudioSnap user:
- Select drum tracks
- Open AudioSnap panel
- Click Power ON button
- Set Averate Tempo to "From Project"
- Click Quantize: 1/16, strength 50%. Change [X] AudioSnap Beats. Swing 50%. Window 100%. Offset 0.
 
Result: bad.
Audio example: http://sonarmods.com/sonarmods/public/forum2016/audiosnap/as-applied.mp3
 
 
Yes, there are AudioSnap tutorials...
 
AudioSnap tips by Craig:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-85-A-Footpedal-for-Your-Processor-m3074655-p2.aspx#3107362
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-85-A-Footpedal-for-Your-Processor-m3074655-p2.aspx#3110584
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/articles/sonarnotes_0510.htm
 
CakeTV videos about AudioSnap 2.0  (6 years old):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eud_9acTjCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwaXi540fZQ
 
Manual:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=AudioSnap.01.html

Is there somewhere "How to use AudioSnap to tighten real drumkit and preserve phase" tutorial?

 
I feel myself stupid when not understanding how these work:
TIMING: Quantize, Extract Groove, Apply Groove.  Which one to use and when? First you have to Extract groove. From where? Some perfect source track or what?
Filter resolution: I woudn't have no idea without reading manuals twice.
Settings: Pool transient window. Uh.
TEMPO - Edit Clip Map: this looks weird.
 
Does anybody use AudioSnap to quantize multitracked, miced drums with good results? Does it beat human (speed / result)? Any advice to give for a total AudioSnap novice?
 
EDIT: <image removed to save bandwidth>
post edited by panup - 2016/03/20 19:16:20
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 03:48:09 (permalink)
Whenever I do this it's only to fix small parts and I have to edit/move transient markers all the time. I have never gotten good results letting Audiosnap do what it wants. The Radius Mix algorithm itself sounds pretty good though.
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Razorwit
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 09:18:09 (permalink)
Hi Panu,
I stopped trying to AS for live multi-tracked drums a while ago...it's just too clunky and my results were never particularly good. These days I export my drums to another program for editing and then pull them back into Sonar to finish mixing. Since this is a Sonar board I try to be polite and refrain from talking about other products, but if you'd like to see how I do it shoot me a PM.
 
Dean

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vanceen
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 11:27:32 (permalink)
I've never found AutoSnap to be useful for drumset recordings.
 
Selection Groups helps a lot, though.

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John T
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 12:25:56 (permalink)
I've done a LOT of this recently. I was working with a mainly electronic act who decided they wanted real drums on five songs on their album. So tracking drums after everything else. Which, if you've ever tried it, you'll know is high on the list of utterly terrible ideas that never work.
 
Anyway, what the client wants, the client must have. So I pulled in a brilliant drummer from another band I'd been recording. The guy has unbelievable time. Came in, and pretty much nailed it, as much as you could hope for. But of course, since everything else was absolutely on the grid, "tight" wasn't really cutting it. Had to be bang on the mark.
 
So... AudioSnap can do this. The sonic results are remarkable and artefact free. But AudioSnap does not make it easy. It's incredibly tortuous.
 
Here are the basic steps:
 
1/ Turn on AS for all your drum tracks.
2/ Select the tracks you want to use to generate your AS markers. Let's say Kick and Snare. Set you threshold so you've got those kits marked and nothing you don't want (NOTE: it's not going to be this easy, more horror to follow)
3/ Select the other drum tracks, excluding the kick and snare, and set the threshold to 100%, meaning there are no markers on these other tracks
4/ Zoom into your kick and snare tracks to check the markers
5/ Notice that AS transient detection is really not very good, and lots of the markers are in the wrong place.
6/ Go through the entire song moving markers into position one at a time. Just the markers, by grabbing the dot in the middle. You don't want to move any beats at this time. This will take forever, and you will hate your life by the end of it.
7/ Now you have a useful set of markers. Select all your drum tracks, right click one, and select "Merge and lock markers"
8/ Right click again and find the options to unlock the markers. Because a locked marker is of literally no use whatsoever. One of many inexplicable design decisions. We just want to merge them, but there seems to be no way of doing that on its own.
 
At this point, you now have a meaningful set of makers, applied to all the drum tracks. So any quantisation you now do will be applied to all tracks in a phase coherent way.
 
In my view, all of those steps above should be on a single button. Select all tracks, click a "Multi-track audiosnap ON" button. Dialog opens asking you to choose the timing control tracks. When we have that, AS will be a credible drum timing tool.
 
As things stand, well, it is possible, and it sounds great, but the process of getting there feels very 1998.
 
Here's one of the tracks if anyone's interested:
 
https://black-helicopters.bandcamp.com/track/diagonal-science
 
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by John T - 2016/03/19 12:51:55

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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 12:36:11 (permalink)
As a follow up note, I have never had any luck with that extract timing / apply groove stuff. I wouldn't even bother with that. Quantise works well after you've set up your markers properly.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:17:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rcklln 2016/03/21 23:26:19
I do this very regularly and I've had great results with it, with a bit of careful preparation. For a lot of modern metal, for which I do here quite often, quantizing drums is a given (like it or not), I also do a lot of stuff with pop productions where loops and sequences are dropped in and need to be locked to the kit, and I've done the "we recorded the tracks to the drum machine, can we get real drums on it now?" thing as well, and that's gone pretty well for the most part, if not an ideal situation.
 
Most of the tutorials I've seen use splitting clips at transients. I really don't like using this method because unless you have a pretty beefy machine, that amount of splits can be really cumbersome to work with, and you run the risk of the cross fades being in places you don't want, or the gaps too wide to do anything useful with.
 
More annoying is Audiosnap, since SPlat, has been iffy at best when it comes to detecting the transients. It was made better and then the algorithm was changed again which made it slightly worse. There's a couple of tricks to get this over the line, though.
 
So my steps to getting a good Audiosnap are very similar to John's steps above, but with a few extra steps that I've found to get around some of Audiosnap's shortcomings:
 
1. Record the drums (duh)
 
2. Find out which tracks are the main timing guides - usually kick and snare tracks. Clone them.
 
3. Solo the cloned tracks. On the clones, you want to aggressively gate the hell out of them so you're just getting the initial pop on the start of each hit and nothing else - the track has to be completely silent between hits. It'll sound like garbage, but that's not the point - we're not going to be using these for anything other than our timing guide.
 
4. Bounce those gated tracks to a new track. That's going to be your guide track now. You can either mute or delete those original cloned and gated tracks now.
 
5. Enable Audiosnap on all of your tracks, including the new guide track. On the Audiosnap palette, drag the Threshold slider all the way up to 100%. This will make every transient on all of the tracks disappear.
 
6. On your guide track, lower the Threshold until you get a useful amount of transients turn up. If you're lucky, they'll be on every hit, and if you're even more lucky, you won't need to go in and manually move anything to be on the beat and you're good to go.
 
7. More than likely things will need adjusting, so zoom in on your guide track with the transients and move, add or delete transient markers until you have one on every hit. Getting your guide right is crucial to this all working well.
 
8. Right-click the guide track, go to Pool > Add Clip to Pool. All of the transients will turn blue, telling you they've been added to the pool.
 
9. Select all of the other drum tracks, right click on any one of them and go to Pool > Apply transient pool markers. You'll see transient lines appear on all of the clips that line up with the blue transients in the guide track.
 
10. Select all of the tracks (including the guide), right click any one of them and go to Quantize and make sure Audiosnap Beats is checked. Quantize to taste.
 
That should get you 95% of the way there. Mute the guide track and listen back - has the quantizing put beats in the wrong place? You need to go back and manually adjust things. Turn your Snap on, find the beat that's not correct, left-mouse lasso around the transients that are on the wrong beat so they're selected across all of the tracks, and drag to the correct position.
 
All where it should be? Great! This is using the Online stretch algorithm so it won't sound amazing, so you'll need to bounce all of the tracks to new clips so it uses the better quality Offline algorithm. Delete the guide track and you're done!
 
Things to consider:
 
This is locking things up pretty tight. If you don't want things quite as tight, you can play around with groove quantizing and things like that. It's fiddly and results are honestly hit and miss.
 
The reason I went to the trouble of making these guide tracks is because transient detection currently sucks whenever there's any slight bit of noise other than what you want to detect on a track. It's almost to the point of being unworkable, in fact in the past I've gone through and manually placed transients because it's been quicker doing that than fixing all of the wrong ones SONAR has "helpfully" put in for me. The guide tracks cut out a LOT of unwanted track bleed and DRAMATICALLY help the detection algorithm.
 
If you need timing from something like a hi-hat or an overhead mic or something, honestly, save yourself the headache and manually put transients in. It'll be about as much work doing that as fixing SONAR's mistakes and you'll likely do a better job at it.
 
A couple of good examples from my band:
 
Against The Wind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fx1qowWvNs
 
Digital Lies (Extended mix, where you can really hear the drums locked in with the sequences): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T0mssdwOw
 
Good luck! 
post edited by Lord Tim - 2016/03/19 14:40:20

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John T
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:32:15 (permalink)
Ah, that's a great idea that gated guide track thing.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:37:19 (permalink)
Yeah, the wrongly placed transients were driving me insane! I was scrambling around trying all kinds of stuff when it dawned on me that it all worked fine on material with clean hits (ie: NOT real drums) so I tried the gating thing out and it REALLY helped.
 
I'd absolutely love it if it was built into the Audiosnap palette so you could just do it all in one go. It's already unnecessarily complex as it is without having to do intermediate steps just so it detects properly. 
 
That all said, it's an absolutely fantastic tool though, and I'm very grateful we have it available!

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:49:13 (permalink)
Great tips, thanks. It's amazing how bad the transient detection is.
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John T
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:51:23 (permalink)
That's the thing, I think. The underlying tech really is excellent. But the workflow design is badly in need of a re-think.

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fitzj
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 14:51:40 (permalink)
Cakewalk should add that feature into audio snap Lord Tim,  thanks for sharing.
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/19 16:19:17 (permalink)
The gated track idea - love it, great tip.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/20 07:58:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2017/04/24 11:09:49
Cheers, guys! 
 
Here's a couple of bonus tips that I've put to good use with Audiosnap:
 
SAMPLE LAYERING / REPLACING
 
Rather than bouncing your gated tracks down to a single guide track, use both of them as your Audio Pool. So you'd get your transients right on each track, then right click each one and choose Pool > Add Clip to Pool, and they'd both turn blue. Then go through my steps above for applying transient markers and quantizing, etc.
 
Now why would I want to do that, aside from having to go through the extra step of creating a unified guide track?
 
If you have transients on every hit, you can use those to create MIDI notes.
 
So after you've done all of the quantizing, etc. don't delete your guides just yet. Instead, select the track you want to convert to MIDI, and then on the Audiosnap Palette, hit the Copy As MIDI button (second one along at the top, next to the power button). Next, insert a new MIDI track. In that track, do Paste and you'll get a track of C3 notes that should line up with your audio transients from the track you copied from (be careful where your cursor is, it usually needs to be at 00:00:00 so it pastes at the right place).
 
This is great because now you have instant sample replacement or layering. Got a dull kick drum? No drama - copy the kick track transients to MIDI, and run that MIDI track into Session Drummer or even TTS-1 and you can have the kick played by the synth. It's especially great for layering on a snare track to add crack or to fatten things up a bit when you have a bit too much hi-hat bleed into the snare mic to turn the snare up any louder.
 
(Obviously delete the guides after you're all done with them, and bounce the tracks to new clips as I mentioned earlier.)
 
The small downside to this is that you have 2 guides rather than 1 to copy the pool transients from, so if a transient is quantized to the wrong spot, you have an extra track to select so everything is moving together. Not a big deal, and I definitely prefer to do it this way because of the extra flexibility you get.
 
 
EASY EDITS
 
When I get session guys in, it's rare that they bother learning the entire song (it's awesome when they do, mind you - MUCH less work for me!). Usually it's a case of going section by section, replicating a drum machine guide with their own human feel, and in a lot of cases we're lining up the replaced drums with pre-recorded instruments, so it needs to be locked into the grid with quantizing.
 
The good thing about that is if the session player is decent, the song can go down really fast because we don't need to worry about redoing entire takes because the groove is wrong in some section, or you want a cymbal accent in the break after Chorus 2 or whatever that's easy to forget when you're thinking about the entire song. Each part can be done exactly as the producer wants. The bad thing is that if the session guy rushes a fill or they're not quite in time with the click, connecting each section smoothly is a real PITA.
 
This is where Audiosnap comes in handy again. I typically edit each section as its own thing. I'll slip edit the takes before and after the section to extend them out past where I need, do the transient detections, quantizing, etc. for each section, then I'll slip edit back the other way so the ends are inside the section. I repeat that for each section until it's all quantized, then I'll go through the boundaries of each part and slip edit to wherever I want them to join. The big plus side of this is that since it's already quantized, it's all now perfectly in time so each part fits together like a glove. Bounce to tracks at the end and you're set!
 
You can do the sample replacement / reinforcement trick with this as well too, but with one important caveat: if you do Copy to MIDI over several sections on a track, there's a bug in SONAR at the moment (which I've reported) that makes the note go up a semitone on each split, so you just need to be mindful that you'll need to shift everything down to the single note so you can send that to the correct instrument on your softsynth.
 
Really useful stuff, and even with the bundled stuff that comes with SONAR, you can get some amazing sounding drum tracks using these techniques. 

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/20 18:03:03 (permalink)
It seems to me 90 percent of AudioSnap problems would be solved if there was simply a better noise gate on the transient detection algorithm.
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John T
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/20 18:49:19 (permalink)
I think it would be nice if there were a variety of detection modes. I mean, the drum replacer detection is superb, largely because it's not general purpose. Would be good to be able to switch between general detection and percussive detection, and do some frequency based fine tuning and so on.

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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 04:58:13 (permalink)
The only thing that worked for me was exporting to a different DAW where the workflow was this:
 
0) install plugin that lets me click once to split-and-crossfade a track
1) selection-group all the drums
2) click slightly before a kick, snare, or other prominent hit to split all drum tracks at that point
3) slide the audio within the clip to visually align the hit with the grid (also sliding all other tracks with it)
4) repeat steps 2 and 3 until done
 
It might be possible to spend the time creating and tweaking markers so that you can quantise at the end, but the way I see it, if you're going through the track manually to adjust markers, you may as well just adjust the audio while you're there. I can imagine a situation where Audiosnap might sound more natural than crossfades but I've not encountered that in practice, and I also wouldn't use a one-size-fits-all quantisation on a drum recording anyway (since a sensible setting for a typical kick and snare beat may not make sense for fills).

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 05:33:22 (permalink)
I can, I can never use simple split-and-move tricks because of overhead bleed and ringing cymbals. It works for simple snare replacement but if I actually MOVE a snare you hear a flam because of the overheads. AudioSnap solves this because it moves the hit on the overhead too and slightly stretches the ringing cymbal.
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Kylotan
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 06:54:07 (permalink)
The example I gave would be moving all tracks simultaneously (via the selection group), so that problem doesn't arise.
 
Now, if we want to talk about drummers who don't hit the snare and crash at the same time, giving you a difficult choice... well, I don't have any fix for that beyond cut-and-paste. :)

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 10:04:44 (permalink)
Yes it does because there is almost always something going on in the overheads. A ride cymbal, a crash, hihats, etc.
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Kylotan
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 10:55:12 (permalink)
You're not going to create a false-flam that wasn't there in the first place if you move all tracks together.

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John T
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 10:55:43 (permalink)
Kylotan's saying he moves the overheads too. It can work, but I find you get weird overlapping artefacts in the overheads quite often.

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#22
Lord Tim
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 11:51:18 (permalink)
^^ yep, exactly my finding too.

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#23
Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/21 13:01:29 (permalink)
I understand he's moving the overheads, I'm saying I can't because if you cut or overlap them you always hear, there's either a cut in a ringing cymbal or hihat or a flam or phasing effect. This is where AudioSnap is potentially very useful and actually does help me, I just need to adjust the markers a lot.
#24
stevec
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/22 14:22:00 (permalink)
I don't do multi-track drums myself, but regardless, this thread has been quite informative.  Saved.
 
This also seems like something worthy of Craig'sList.    

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#25
panup
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2016/03/25 23:12:53 (permalink)
You guys have given awesome tips for AudioSnapping. I will definitely test the hard gating guide track method!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
 
I'll return to this subject after I've gained more experience and may even write an in-depth article about editing multi-track drums (not only AudioSnap).
#26
MagicMike
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2017/04/24 10:18:34 (permalink)
Excellent tips from Lord Tim - cheers!
 
3. Solo the cloned tracks. On the clones, you want to aggressively gate the hell out of them so you're just getting the initial pop on the start of each hit and nothing else - the track has to be completely silent between hits. It'll sound like garbage, but that's not the point - we're not going to be using these for anything other than our timing guide.
 
4. Bounce those gated tracks to a new track. That's going to be your guide track now. You can either mute or delete those original cloned and gated tracks now.
 
I was struggling with AudioSnap on the weekend for a multitrack drum session that was going off click in places. I was getting way too many transients detected on the kick drum track - the kick drum track is well recorded with virtually no bleed. 
 
Will try this later.

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#27
Soundwise
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2017/04/24 11:15:02 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I can, I can never use simple split-and-move tricks because of overhead bleed and ringing cymbals. It works for simple snare replacement but if I actually MOVE a snare you hear a flam because of the overheads. AudioSnap solves this because it moves the hit on the overhead too and slightly stretches the ringing cymbal.

For those who prefer to quantize drums manually, you must group clips before you do edits. That is, to preserve phase, you must split/move grouped clips and not single clips.

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#28
Sanderxpander
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2017/04/24 11:17:54 (permalink)
If I move the overhead with it the cymbals get messed up, or (e.g.) the kick drum that was supposed to be in sync with the snare but isn't completely. AudioSnap solves that.
#29
Soundwise
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Re: Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular bas 2017/04/24 11:27:28 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
If I move the overhead with it the cymbals get messed up, or (e.g.) the kick drum that was supposed to be in sync with the snare but isn't completely. AudioSnap solves that.




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