Time Aligning Drums

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mr. moon
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2006/11/17 21:21:50 (permalink)

Time Aligning Drums

Hi Folks,

Here's an excellent article which goes into time aligning drums after they have been recorded to increase their impact and depth:

Time Align Drums (link)


Be sure to check out all the pages (7 in total), but pay extra close attention to the info on page 6, as it details how to get the drums in phase with one another if you have a mic in the kick. ...The answer may surprise you, it sure did surprise me!!

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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/17 22:17:00 (permalink)
    Mr Moon
    Outstanding link! Lot's of good information in that article. Now I understand Deja Vu.



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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/19 17:10:06 (permalink)
    Moon, very cool, thanks for the link.

    1973 "A" neck.

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    themidiroom
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/20 11:32:12 (permalink)
    Very interesting. I might experiment with this technique since I will be recording drums in a couple weeks.

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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 11:55:24 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: themidiroom

    Very interesting. I might experiment with this technique since I will be recording drums in a couple weeks.



    Hey everyone...

    Yeah, I agree that this was a good find, however, I have to credit Recording magazine for printing the link in one of their articles, so all I'm doing is spreading the news...

    Anywho, I re-aligned some tracks from an older project tune which was released previously, and I have to tell you that there is a difference. Most noticeably, the kick drum really punches through more and the snare is more solid ...less "papery" sounding, if that's even a word ...but you get the idea. I was concerned that the kit would lose its depth and image, since the tracks are being aligned to be in sync with the OH's, but I'm astounded at the results and how the depth actually seemed to increase as did the image and clarity.

    Of course, YMMV, and I'm still in the process of getting the process down.

    I have to tell you, the whole discussion about the kick drum(s) , phase inversion, and such really made me slap my forehead and go "DOH!!"

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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 12:27:42 (permalink)
    hi moon,
    the part about viewing the waveform is the key IMO, it's hard to tell when a piece of gear is reversing the phase unless it's been checked, or you're using the same gear every time. To get good alignment waveforms, it would be worthwhile to record test drum hits, or any instrument making it's way in to a track through multiple sources, specifically for the alignment, at some point in the track, just to make sure a good clean view of the waveform is available. Of course, this technique relies upon the accuracy of the host software's ability to provide waveform pictures that are indeed exactly in phase with the actual data in the wave file.

    post edited by TheFingers - 2006/11/22 12:46:50

    1973 "A" neck.

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    Studio1000
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 12:53:13 (permalink)
    Great Link and Great Info. My question is if you delay the drums to match the overheads does the delay build up and throw the track off at all, or do you nudge the whole thing back. thats the only part i wasnt clear on.
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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 13:52:29 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Studio1000

    Great Link and Great Info. My question is if you delay the drums to match the overheads does the delay build up and throw the track off at all, or do you nudge the whole thing back. thats the only part i wasnt clear on.


    I didn't time delay, I used the slip editing technique (as described beginning on page 5) of matching all the individual instrument tracks to the closest OH track. You just have to be sure to find instances where on that instrument (i.e. tom 1) is being hit alone with no other drums or cymbals so you can match the transient from the tom 1 mic to the closest OH mic. (By closest OH mic, I'm referring to the OH track that is closest in physical proximity to the track's mic that your editing)

    My results sound much the same as those the author posted on page 1 of the article.

    -mr moon

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    xackley
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 14:15:51 (permalink)
    Non destructive, do it by ear, bounce to see the wav.

    http://www.voxengo.com/product/sampledelay/

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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 14:34:48 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: xackley

    Non destructive, do it by ear, bounce to see the wav.

    http://www.voxengo.com/product/sampledelay/


    Huh, that looks pretty cool. May have to try that next time...

    Rather than having to bounce to see the wav to check it out, couldn't you just magnify into the tracks and figure the number of samples of delay needed, and them apply it like that to avoid having to back and forth between bounced version to figure out the correct timing?

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    xackley
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 14:50:26 (permalink)
    I do this with multi miced acuostic guitar. I just do it by ear, till I like what I hear. Easy to change if I change my mind.
    Freezing or bounce would only be necessary to double check, if it really mattered what the wav looked like.

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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 15:30:11 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Studio1000

    Great Link and Great Info. My question is if you delay the drums to match the overheads does the delay build up and throw the track off at all, or do you nudge the whole thing back. thats the only part i wasnt clear on.

    I'd speculate you could nudge them all after aligning them, I would try Audio Snap to mark the transients, and then nudge a group of selected tracks into place with, say, the Bass track, yeah, that's a good choice, the Bass track.

    1973 "A" neck.

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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 16:13:06 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: TheFingers

    ORIGINAL: Studio1000

    Great Link and Great Info. My question is if you delay the drums to match the overheads does the delay build up and throw the track off at all, or do you nudge the whole thing back. thats the only part i wasnt clear on.

    I'd speculate you could nudge them all after aligning them, I would try Audio Snap to mark the transients, and then nudge a group of selected tracks into place with, say, the Bass track, yeah, that's a good choice, the Bass track.



    Personally, I would NOT use Audiosnap, but that's just me. I would just slide (slip) edit the tracks into place. As long as you tracked the drums all at once, they should all be the same length and will align to the entire length of the tune.

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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/22 22:31:30 (permalink)
    Moon, I'm not making myself clear again....I would just use Audio Snap TO MARK THE TRANSIENTS, and then use NUDGE to slide them into place. Sorry for yelling.

    1973 "A" neck.

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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/23 12:34:41 (permalink)
    I am using SHS4 and don't see a way to get a wave form picture other than a solid wave form in my track view. What tool would I need to get to be able to get the wave form that I need to align my drum tracks?



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    xackley
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/23 13:41:58 (permalink)
    you don't have the zoom buttons at the bottom right of Track View?

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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/23 18:05:50 (permalink)
    Yes I do but I was looking for a more definitive way to see the wave form, like what is used in the demo. I guess that I can't get that image on SHS, at least I sure can't find it.




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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/24 17:39:01 (permalink)
    Xacley, could you explain in more detail how you use sample delay to line things up? I'm specifically wanting to know how to use this technic on drums.



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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/27 09:56:32 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: TheFingers

    Moon, I'm not making myself clear again....I would just use Audio Snap TO MARK THE TRANSIENTS, and then use NUDGE to slide them into place. Sorry for yelling.

    No problemo...

    I was just venting my distrust of Audiosnap to do anything, but that's just because I don't find it very intuitive nor functional for me at this point.


    ORIGINAL: TheFingers
    I'd speculate you could nudge them all after aligning them, I would try Audio Snap to mark the transients, and then nudge a group of selected tracks into place with, say, the Bass track, yeah, that's a good choice, the Bass track.

    I guess I'm a bit confused why you'd be matching anything to the bass track in this situation... This technique, as described on the site, is primarily used to match all the drums to the OH's; specifically, to time align all the drums to one common reference point, which in this case are the OH's. By matching the drums to their closest OH mic track, the drums will automatically set into the image created by the pair of OH mics.




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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/11/27 11:10:46 (permalink)
    Hi moon, did you have a nice Thanksgiving?

    I guess I'm a bit confused why you'd be matching anything to the bass track in this situation... This technique, as described on the site, is primarily used to match all the drums to the OH's; specifically, to time align all the drums to one common reference point, which in this case are the OH's. By matching the drums to their closest OH mic track, the drums will automatically set into the image created by the pair of OH mics.




    You're right it was OT, my apologie.

    I was just venting my distrust of Audiosnap to do anything, but that's just because I don't find it very intuitive nor functional for me at this point.


    I spent the entire day on Audio Snap yesterday, after reading Craig Anderton's review of Sonar6, HERE LINK HERE HERE

    It's an awesome tool that does so much, I'm realizing it has a steep learning curve. IMO, if you start using it for very basic tasks, such as checking the timing of various tracks, while working with the markers, (enabling, disabling, promoting), the lights will come on. One thing to note, if you use stretching, the rendering (bounce to clip) results are superior to real-time playback. Vey interesting that clip audio stretching options override the global algorithm settings in the pallette.

    Until next time.....

    1973 "A" neck.

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    fendorst
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/01 08:24:20 (permalink)
    Best recording of drums that I've ever heard was two overhead mics, left and right channels, about 20 feet from the kit, 6 feet off the ground, mics positioned about 8 inches apart. Basically put the mics where a human being's ears would be if he were standing 20 feet from the drum kit.

    The resulting recording sounds exactly like what you'd hear if you were in the room with a drummer playing. Whether it's in or out of phase, in or out of time alignment, it's the natural sound of a drum kit as human ears would hear it.

    Put the time and effort into tuning the drums correctly and getting the kit to sound good as an instrument, all sounds complementing one another, etc. Then concentrate on playing well. Then let reality sound what it sounds like.

    If you want to play around to get different sounds, put the two mics 6 feet away, or 30. Put them higher in the air or closer to the ground. Put them behind the drum set rather than in front, or directly overhead. Each different location will change the mix and sound, and somewhere along the way you'll find the mix you like. In other words, record reality from different perspectives in the room, or move the drum set to a different location in the room, or use a different room. But wherever the mics are placed, use only 2 and keep them 8 inches apart, like human ears.

    Reality sounds good if you make the effort to get it right on takedown. Rather than massage the snot out of a drum track after the fact, adding EQ, compression, time alignment, tweaking faders up and down etc. all over the place, re-record it and get a good sound and mix without any electronic enhancement. This approach helps you focus on what's important, the tone, feeling and musical quality of your instrument, track and performance. Also uses up a lot less CPU power, and simplifies mixing down the road... fewer parameters to continually fiddle with to get it "just right." If you record it just right, it will stay just right because reality is just right.
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    lazarous
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/01 09:26:40 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: fendorst

    Best recording of drums that I've ever heard was two overhead mics, left and right channels, about 20 feet from the kit, 6 feet off the ground, mics positioned about 8 inches apart. Basically put the mics where a human being's ears would be if he were standing 20 feet from the drum kit.

    The resulting recording sounds exactly like what you'd hear if you were in the room with a drummer playing. Whether it's in or out of phase, in or out of time alignment, it's the natural sound of a drum kit as human ears would hear it.


    While I love this type of setup for the styles of music it works with, try getting a metal band to agree to it. The over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick is part of "that sound." I love the simplicity, but this method won't work for every style of music out there.

    Thanks for posting the link, Mr. Moon! Appreciated!

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    fendorst
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/01 10:10:11 (permalink)
    Agree the 2-mic approach won't work for all styles of music. No single technique does. It's simply an alternative to the endless knob-twiddling approach, which also doesn't work for all styles of music and isn't even necessary for many styles.

    In your own words, however, you refer to "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" in metal music, so you do acknowledge the unreality of the endless knob-twiddling approach.

    As for "try getting a metal band to agree with it," the 2-mic approach worked pretty well for Jimmy Page when he was recording John Bonham, and many rock and metal drummers regard that sound as monstrously influential in their own playing. Anyone got a problem with the drums on Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir?" (Yeah, I know, flanged and all that. But the basic recording is of a whole drum kit, not a collection of heavily manipulated individually close-mic'd drums.) Perhaps the metal drummers just don't know the facts. Or they read posts on recording-technique forums and figure the only way to get a good sound is to endlessly fiddle with software rather than simply tune their kit and play well.

    It's all good. Folks who want to twiddle knobs will twiddle knobs. Folks who want to get their kit to sound killer and then give a killer performance will do that. It all comes down to what you enjoy doing most, playing with the recording gear or playing with your instrument. Good results can be had either way. I was simply making the case that reality is an acceptable option vs. "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" found in a lot of music these days.

    And who knows... maybe a metal drummer will read about the 2-mic approach, try it and love it, and a whole new fad will get started. Yin and yang, man. I just know I'd rather play my instrument for 2 hours working on getting the kit and the part to sound good and then record the final performance in one 5-minute take, instead of play my instrument for 5 minutes and then twiddle knobs for 2 hours making the sound over-manipulated and hyped.

    Guess that's why some folks are musicians and others are engineers.
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    TheFingers
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/01 11:20:30 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: fendorst

    Agree the 2-mic approach won't work for all styles of music. No single technique does. It's simply an alternative to the endless knob-twiddling approach, which also doesn't work for all styles of music and isn't even necessary for many styles.

    In your own words, however, you refer to "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" in metal music, so you do acknowledge the unreality of the endless knob-twiddling approach.

    As for "try getting a metal band to agree with it," the 2-mic approach worked pretty well for Jimmy Page when he was recording John Bonham, and many rock and metal drummers regard that sound as monstrously influential in their own playing. Anyone got a problem with the drums on Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir?" (Yeah, I know, flanged and all that. But the basic recording is of a whole drum kit, not a collection of heavily manipulated individually close-mic'd drums.) Perhaps the metal drummers just don't know the facts. Or they read posts on recording-technique forums and figure the only way to get a good sound is to endlessly fiddle with software rather than simply tune their kit and play well.

    It's all good. Folks who want to twiddle knobs will twiddle knobs. Folks who want to get their kit to sound killer and then give a killer performance will do that. It all comes down to what you enjoy doing most, playing with the recording gear or playing with your instrument. Good results can be had either way. I was simply making the case that reality is an acceptable option vs. "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" found in a lot of music these days.

    And who knows... maybe a metal drummer will read about the 2-mic approach, try it and love it, and a whole new fad will get started. Yin and yang, man. I just know I'd rather play my instrument for 2 hours working on getting the kit and the part to sound good and then record the final performance in one 5-minute take, instead of play my instrument for 5 minutes and then twiddle knobs for 2 hours making the sound over-manipulated and hyped.

    Guess that's why some folks are musicians and others are engineers.

    Hello gents, good day. fendorst, you're absolutely correct, especially about some (or is it most) drummers who face a challenge in the tuning department. You mention some good points, I think we just have different perceptions of the reasons for using this time-align technique. Also, this time-alignment does not apply to the use of room mics, (20 ft. human ear configuration) just OH mics. I would add that using time-alignment to make a horrible drum sound better is indeed counter-productive, and the time better spent elsewhere.

    If you have painstakingly done everything you can, and have worthwhile time invested, it is also worthwhile to just go ahead and spend the extra half-hour or so, to get it even better. I have used this on two songs so far, and have enjoyed results very similar to those in the article. One thing they don't mention, IMO it makes drum reverb sound better too.

    The article is worth reading. And the examples are worth listening to. Especially enlightening is the parts regarding + and - transient wavefronts, it's worth a look. Plus, they show ya pictures.

    1973 "A" neck.

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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/02 12:20:11 (permalink)
    I can't seem to be able to use the wave form image that I get with my program to align, even when I magnify. I've been trying to find another way to time align with what I have and another possibility that I've found is to right click on the track, choose properties, change the start time of the track. I played around with this quite a bit but am not positive that it made a big difference. Am I on the right track by doing this?



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    mixsit
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/02 14:34:37 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Drumz

    I can't seem to be able to use the wave form image that I get with my program to align, even when I magnify. I've been trying to find another way to time align with what I have and another possibility that I've found is to right click on the track, choose properties, change the start time of the track. I played around with this quite a bit but am not positive that it made a big difference. Am I on the right track by doing this?

    Using the properties' time stamp is good way to keep track of where you were and are going, or bump the position if that works for you (assuming the increments are fine enough).
    For good visual cues look for the sharpest spike you can find. As you've probably seen, when you zoom in things get pretty mushy.

    Wayne
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    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/02 20:15:45 (permalink)
    Wayne, thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure if the increments are fine enough but it seems they should be. It's a non destructive way to align and experiment.



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    themidiroom
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/04 10:26:59 (permalink)
    I used a variation of this method and it worked out quite well. Normally, I setup a separate drum bus. I fed the overheads directly to that bus. I setup a sub-bus for all the other drum mics to feed the main drum bus. On the sub-bus, I applied a time delay plugin that can shift timing at the sample level. I listened to the mics in relationship to the overheads and adjusted the timing accordingly. On songs where I wanted more of a focused sound, I used a larger delay. On songs where I wanted more of a natural somewhat "roomy" sound, I used less of a delay. The phase relationship between the kick mic and the kick picked up by the overheads seemed to be the key difference I heard.

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    #28
    Drumz
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2006/12/04 12:50:35 (permalink)
    Midi, sounds like what you do would work very well. A lot less tedious than trying to align with a mouse. Thanks, I will give that a try.



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    mr. moon
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    RE: Time Aligning Drums 2008/05/06 15:23:27 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: mr. moon

    Hi Folks,

    Here's an excellent article which goes into time aligning drums after they have been recorded to increase their impact and depth:

    Time Align Drums (link)


    Be sure to check out all the pages (7 in total), but pay extra close attention to the info on page 6, as it details how to get the drums in phase with one another if you have a mic in the kick. ...The answer may surprise you, it sure did surprise me!!

    -mr moon


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