Time...

Jonesey, I'm just warming up! LOL! Actually, I've been rendering files for hours on all my power boxes and can't do much else on this little pc...so you're stuck with me! Hahaha! Actually, I'm going home now...honest I am!

Reece: you're welcome brother. Mail me anytime and we can talk more. :)

John T: I couldn't agree more. Some guys make that work and the science makes them better. I actually support that and respect it. I really do as much as I may sound anti-science. To me, I don't care how we get from point A to point B as long as we get there with an end result we're happy with. Theory, no theory, pots and pans, good gear, bad gear, none of it matters to me really as long as we can high 5 at the end of the session with happiness and the material sounds the way it should.

Funny story for you. I had a guy come into my studio last week with the weirdest guitar rig I had ever seen. I'm telling you man, this dude literally had every pedal you could name all on one board that he made himself. I never saw so many pedals in my life. I kid you not, there had to be 30 or more of them. I stopped counting after 15 because I kept on losing my place. They were sideways, backwards, any way he could make them fit on this board. It was just...unreal.

So you know...the first thing I'm thinking is, I'm going to be welcomed by a hiss sandwich followed by a 60 cycle hum hoagie, degraded signal and cats in a meatgrinder guitar tone. I was seriously sitting there in awe because I had never seen anything like this before. It took the dude about 20 mnutes to set all this stuff up. Now the moment of truth...

He turns on the amp, hiss, hum, oh man, I just shook my head. Before I said a word, he says "let me go check a few things". He goes out to the live room, reaches into his bag and hooks up 3 more stomp boxes! LOL!!! He comes back in and says "oops, forgot to hook a few things up....we should be good now." I'm sitting there in disbelief....then he plays. The tone is awesome!! LOL!! No noise, no hum, no artifacts, it literally made me smile to where I started laughing out loud and had to apologize because I couldn't believe what I just saw and heard.

Apparently, he forgot that he had taken some of the pedals out for something else and when he first fired up, the chords were hot and not plugged in. So of course that's going to make some noise. When he plugged in the missing devices, the chain was complete. How he made that sound like it did (with a 5150 of all amps which are kinda noisey imho) is beyond me. But the moral of the story is...it doesn't matter how bad something looks or how you get there...as long as you get there with good results...and we wound up with excellent results considering I thought this was going to be a horrible day. LOL!

-Danny

Danny,

I still got an old ADA/Quadraverb/MosValve rig from TMP in Berlin that works like a champ. Sad that when I gig out, the equipment is older than the bartenders/servers at the bar :(

And for the record on earlier posts in this thread, you have always been always a classy person... even in the South Jersey scene that was ripe with phonies.

hockeyjx


Danny,

I still got an old ADA/Quadraverb/MosValve rig from TMP in Berlin that works like a champ. Sad that when I gig out, the equipment is older than the bartenders/servers at the bar :(

And for the record on earlier posts in this thread, you have always been always a classy person... even in the South Jersey scene that was ripe with phonies.

I still got some of that stuff too! ADA Pitchtraq, Quadraverb 1 and 2, loads of other old stuff that would make you laugh. My live rig looks like that dude's pedal board I mentioned...only worse because it's rack gear. LOL!
 
Aww man, thanks a lot. That's really kind of you. I know we hung out at all the same places but I don't think we ever spoke other than in passing? Didn't I do a show with you at G. Wilikers or something one time? Are you still in NJ? I got a gig at a little place in Pennsville Friday night called AJ's if you're not doing anything. Mixed cover set and a full blown old VH set. I'm in PA on Saturday doing a benefit show for our troops (USO) in Levittown at Falls Twp Community Park if that's closer. I think we go on at like 3 pm. I can't remember if you moved or not...sorry. Anyway, thanks again hockey..much appreciated brother. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

hockeyjx


Danny,

I still got an old ADA/Quadraverb/MosValve rig from TMP in Berlin that works like a champ. Sad that when I gig out, the equipment is older than the bartenders/servers at the bar :(

And for the record on earlier posts in this thread, you have always been always a classy person... even in the South Jersey scene that was ripe with phonies.

I still got some of that stuff too! ADA Pitchtraq, Quadraverb 1 and 2, loads of other old stuff that would make you laugh. My live rig looks like that dude's pedal board I mentioned...only worse because it's rack gear. LOL!
 
Aww man, thanks a lot. That's really kind of you. I know we hung out at all the same places but I don't think we ever spoke other than in passing? Didn't I do a show with you at G. Wilikers or something one time? Are you still in NJ? I got a gig at a little place in Pennsville Friday night called AJ's if you're not doing anything. Mixed cover set and a full blown old VH set. I'm in PA on Saturday doing a benefit show for our troops (USO) in Levittown at Falls Twp Community Park if that's closer. I think we go on at like 3 pm. I can't remember if you moved or not...sorry. Anyway, thanks again hockey..much appreciated brother. :)
 
-Danny

I hope you have a warehouse!! 


I get a lot of information out of your posts...everytime you post something I'm finding stuff in there that I am looking for ...


Good work!!

Actually we did play a few times together and I remember us talking on more than a couple of occasions. But I was younger and more impressionable, so I remember more about those days 

I'm in Atlanta now, have been for a while, otherwise I'd be out there.

Were you at the Bonnie's Reunion in 2004 by chance?

Danny,

You taught me a lot and one day I'll learn more from you (when the resources are there) but until then the contents of this thread have given me even more to build on what you've taught me so far.

Thanks for all you do.

Danny Danzi

I'm actually going to be out there [the West Coast] either this summer or by the fall.

What part?  Do you know yet?

Great post to all.  Danny - you are right on.  I do post alot of songs and try to give honest comments to others that I think will help.  I think when we do that, we should try to be helpful without being discouraging.  As you said, someone really mentored you and brought you up many levels.  More than one person has done that for me also even though I have a long way to go!

You offer a ton of value Danny and as you have stated, others do too. 
It's the "meaningful contribution" that matters most to me - and maybe not from the most experienced person.  At times, and not too often, I have seen comments by really good artists with great sounding tracks that didn't seem helpful at all to the Op.   On the otherhand, there are some with lessor skills that can be right on the mark.  So I think it boils down to if you care and have something constructive to add based on experience (like you said) and not just the armchair comment.

However, if someone at your level chimes in, all the better for the rest of us. 

Thanks for your input on many levels. 

Jimmy

My one and only commment and defense:
 
Everybody asks why I when into a diatribe over what Danny said, and notice how I use the word diatribe :meaning:ironic or satirical criticism.  So not as Danny has taken it which was an attack on his soul.  This is first what Danny wrote which made me believe his inference was aimed at me:
 
Rule of thumb 2: If you can't go into detail to tell someone how, when, or why to fix something while having the right recipe that REALLY works, have the ability to deliver the right description while in the right frame of mind like a normal human being with a pulse and a sense of compassion, do us all a favor and don't post anything negative. Actually, don't post anything at all...especially if someone is really crying out and trying to learn. All you'll do is further confuse them with your infinite...ummm...whatever you want to call it but make no mistake, it is NOT wisdom. Mods should ban you for drama and for being an attention prostitute that doesn't care for anyone but themselves packing this forum with garbage...post after post.

Sharing links on the subject further confuses people. If you can't tell it in your own words in a language that an unexperiencied person can understand, don't bother wasting the space. If you do this and then try to be intimidating on top of it, how about just don't? I have a degree in hearing. The scope of my hearing test says "you suck and quite well I might add...so well in fact, you are nearly at the engulf stage".

I can explain something in one long post that *most* people will understand way better than your stupid, boring, cop of another persons findings that sound spoken in a language other than English. In school that was known as "Cribbing". Don't let the net fool you, you're still not a good engineer no matter how good your search engine leads you to believe.

The day your friends start telling the truth is the day they really become your friends. We got enough sugar coating and horsesh!t around here to create our own Candy Land board game. There's nothing wrong with being nice, but for heaven sakes, when someone delivers something that sounds bad and is a Richard Cranium on top of it, don't feed their ego because they are your friend or you feel sorry for them. Just think, if everyone were more honest, we'd not have the creature known as "he whos name we shall not mention". You guys built him, now the rest of us are stuck with him. Thanks.
 
Then there is this:
 
Tip of the day: Don't ever fall into the trap like "those that shall remain nameless and clueless". If you ever don't know something, say you don't know. The people that act like they know everything would be way cooler and welcomed with open arms if they just fessed up that they didn't really know much at all. Instead, we are left with...well, you know the deal there.

Then Philip names me because Philip knows who Danny is talking about, so I suggested to Danny that I had everyright to be here just as much as him, no barbs apart from that, Danny must think that I live in a bubble, if he thinks I don't learn something new everday doing this audio thing.
 
Notice also how I was the first to chime in with no ego and said to BOTR (I wish he would give us his name) hey it takes 10 years of experiments and maybe some school and then listed key jumping off points such as: EQ, Compression and Effects.
I wouldn't even bother with this comment if I wasn't acused of having a massive ego and basicly being told I was a forum wrecker and I should bugger off.  I mean the nerve.  Danny has obviously got passive agressive issues, I'm just plain aggressive.
 
This is the techniques forum and I was putting forward some ideas about there being a third or forth way and here is another thing that all amateurs, hobbyists and pro's alike should be interested in.  The disscussion of ideas. 
 
How dare anyone suggest that we should not disscuss Ideas and that the way we record is set in stone.  Because once again this is the inference that Danny is suggesting.
 
Finally BOTR and this is on topic we need to understand historical perspective, without it we don't know where we have been and we def don't know where we are going.
 
Danny in this thread has pissed on the Mona Lisa, actually criticising people who made what is considered by some one of the finest examples of popular music of all time.  Surely this shows Danny has no artistic perspective at all, very dangerous.  He may know a lot about technique and even that can be questioned when he critiques Bohemian Rhapsody and says and I quote:
 
If my answer is "absolutely not" in my mind, I've matured as an engineer as long as I can do better. I may not be able to write as good or play as good as that band, but in THIS scenario, we're looking at production/quality. I love Queen, but I'd never shoot for the production they got in Bohemian. And...chances are, because of my way of thinking, I might not ever come up with a mix that is as good. Then again...I might come up with something better, you never know. I actually thought of doing that. Replacing the bass, guitar and drums with my own and leaving Freddie sing on it  
 
I'd be seriously questioning any indivdual and their information who said this.
 
Here ended the lesson, I'm off to do what I do best make music, make art and yes stir the pot, hmmm
 
Neb

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/bigdogmetoo.htm

BenMMusTech


My one and only commment and defense:
 
Everybody asks why I when into a diatribe over what Danny said, and notice how I use the word diatribe :meaning:ironic or satirical criticism.  So not as Danny has taken it which was an attack on his soul.  This is first what Danny wrote which made me believe his inference was aimed at me:
 
Rule of thumb 2: If you can't go into detail to tell someone how, when, or why to fix something while having the right recipe that REALLY works, have the ability to deliver the right description while in the right frame of mind like a normal human being with a pulse and a sense of compassion, do us all a favor and don't post anything negative. Actually, don't post anything at all...especially if someone is really crying out and trying to learn. All you'll do is further confuse them with your infinite...ummm...whatever you want to call it but make no mistake, it is NOT wisdom. Mods should ban you for drama and for being an attention prostitute that doesn't care for anyone but themselves packing this forum with garbage...post after post.

Sharing links on the subject further confuses people. If you can't tell it in your own words in a language that an unexperiencied person can understand, don't bother wasting the space. If you do this and then try to be intimidating on top of it, how about just don't? I have a degree in hearing. The scope of my hearing test says "you suck and quite well I might add...so well in fact, you are nearly at the engulf stage".

I can explain something in one long post that *most* people will understand way better than your stupid, boring, cop of another persons findings that sound spoken in a language other than English. In school that was known as "Cribbing". Don't let the net fool you, you're still not a good engineer no matter how good your search engine leads you to believe.

The day your friends start telling the truth is the day they really become your friends. We got enough sugar coating and horsesh!t around here to create our own Candy Land board game. There's nothing wrong with being nice, but for heaven sakes, when someone delivers something that sounds bad and is a Richard Cranium on top of it, don't feed their ego because they are your friend or you feel sorry for them. Just think, if everyone were more honest, we'd not have the creature known as "he whos name we shall not mention". You guys built him, now the rest of us are stuck with him. Thanks.
 
Then there is this:
 
Tip of the day: Don't ever fall into the trap like "those that shall remain nameless and clueless". If you ever don't know something, say you don't know. The people that act like they know everything would be way cooler and welcomed with open arms if they just fessed up that they didn't really know much at all. Instead, we are left with...well, you know the deal there.

Then Philip names me because Philip knows who Danny is talking about, so I suggested to Danny that I had everyright to be here just as much as him, no barbs apart from that, Danny must think that I live in a bubble, if he thinks I don't learn something new everday doing this audio thing.
 
Notice also how I was the first to chime in with no ego and said to BOTR (I wish he would give us his name) hey it takes 10 years of experiments and maybe some school and then listed key jumping off points such as: EQ, Compression and Effects.
I wouldn't even bother with this comment if I wasn't acused of having a massive ego and basicly being told I was a forum wrecker and I should bugger off.  I mean the nerve.  Danny has obviously got passive agressive issues, I'm just plain aggressive.
 
This is the techniques forum and I was putting forward some ideas about there being a third or forth way and here is another thing that all amateurs, hobbyists and pro's alike should be interested in.  The disscussion of ideas. 
 
How dare anyone suggest that we should not disscuss Ideas and that the way we record is set in stone.  Because once again this is the inference that Danny is suggesting.
 
Finally BOTR and this is on topic we need to understand historical perspective, without it we don't know where we have been and we def don't know where we are going.
 
Danny in this thread has pissed on the Mona Lisa, actually criticising people who made what is considered by some one of the finest examples of popular music of all time.  Surely this shows Danny has no artistic perspective at all, very dangerous.  He may know a lot about technique and even that can be questioned when he critiques Bohemian Rhapsody and says and I quote:
 
If my answer is "absolutely not" in my mind, I've matured as an engineer as long as I can do better. I may not be able to write as good or play as good as that band, but in THIS scenario, we're looking at production/quality. I love Queen, but I'd never shoot for the production they got in Bohemian. And...chances are, because of my way of thinking, I might not ever come up with a mix that is as good. Then again...I might come up with something better, you never know. I actually thought of doing that. Replacing the bass, guitar and drums with my own and leaving Freddie sing on it  
 
I'd be seriously questioning any indivdual and their information who said this.
 
Here ended the lesson, I'm off to do what I do best make music, make art and yes stir the pot, hmmm
 
Neb

As I said in that post, it was not directed at anyone in particular. If the shoe fits, wear it. Your name was never mentioned. Guilty conscience? Did something hit home? Everything I said was truth. Not just my truth, THE TRUTH. I and others see the stuff I posted on here all the time. Wake up...hello, McFly? *knocks on head*
 
Queen: I gave the tune props when in full song format. Sue me for not liking the instrument choices when solo'd up. I do not think I would be alone in saying "engineers of today would not accept the sound of that instrumentation unless they were specifically going for THAT sound." I said I loved the band, I said they were talented. So I'm no longer credible for saying I didn't like the instrumentation prints on a classic rock song that was a hit? I also said that I probably wouldn't come up with as good of a mix with more polished instrumentation, yet you never know....there IS a possibility for me to better it...and in my mind, I would. That doesn't mean anyone else would like it...it means *I* would like it better and I'd better it to MY specs.
 
Ok, since you've totally twisted my words around and I'm not to be trusted, I'll go down in flames. Please add these to your list so that my credibility can drop more.
 
I don't like some of the sounds the Beatles got, but I love the Beatles. Oooh...I better build a fortress around me!
 
I can't stomach the sound of Steve Howe's guitar sound on the early YES albums, but I love YES.
 
I am not a Jeff Beck fan and though I appreciate him and can understand why people love him, he just never did anything for me.
 
I don't like Roger Daltry, Pete Townsend or his tone, but I love The Who.
 
I don't like Jimmy Page as a lead guitarist, but I love Led Zep. Ooooh...I better double that fortress now!
 
I don't like Bob Dylan's voice but I love his writing.
 
I don't like Neal Young's guitar playing but I like his tones and song writing.
 
I do not think Eric Clapton is God. I'd rather listen to David Gilmour or Eric Gales. Oh my, did he just say that? No he didn't...better enforce that wall with extra cement and sealer!
 
Janis Joplin was full of energy and a female icon, but had an annoying timbre to me.
 
I never liked The Greatful Dead and never understood why others did. Tones were always good though. Oh boy, now I've done it...9 trillion Dead Heads will show up my door and want to kill me!
 
I do not like The Rolling Stones AT ALL, but can understand why they are loved. Ok, that does it...someone will now drop a bomb on my house!
 
I never liked Aerosmith other than Tyler being one of the best frontmen that ever lived. I grew to like their newer stuff though. Why? Cooler production to MY ears.
 
Does the above make me less credible for not bowing down to these artists? I think not. I'm not slagging them, I just don't like the production some of them got and would not be caught dead attempting to land those tones unless I was asked to. All well and good for the times...some of them, still good for today but not my bag. I don't like things and worship them because "you're supposed to". I have that right. It doesn't tarnish my credibility, my experience or the knowledge I share. 
 
Sharing links: All well and good if the entire topic shared is something like John T shared. However, I have watched people drop links with pages and pages in them to where you have to search to find the answers the OP may have asked. No one should have to read through all that. Get to the point, high-lite or post the part to read, answer in your own words if you can, be thorough, or don't post at all. How many people do you think read through huge posts while searching for answers? Book worms maybe, but certainly not someone that is asking for help on something specific and certainly not someone that may be new to this. Yeah, go on and confuse them more...you're great at that as is.
 
I won't sit here and argue about the rest of your self-serving post that has done nothing to answer the OP's questions. You'd rather attempt to take good people down than do something good because you don't know what you're talking about and you have no good in you.
 
Be careful mentioning Philip's name. The man is a Saint and one of the few people left on this forum that has a little love for you. He didn't side with me or call you out...he showed you love and respect. He's a man of God and doesn't have an ounce of anger or malice towards anyone. Even to those that would attack him. Don't snap at him or bite him, he doesn't deserve it.
 
You snap at and bite those who have tried to help you, listen to you and reason with you. You're the dog that keeps poo'n on the lawns of our community. With each little turd you leave behind, the community gets sick of you. They try to reason with you, attempt to hear you out, listen to your pity posts to show you compassion, give you advice, show you love and courtesy when you don't really deserve it, yet you remain a turd burglar with a relentless trail of dung at every corner.
 
You not only degrade the community, you brag about your efforts because you sincerely feel you are higher up the ladder of intelligence than the rest of us followed by "you just don't get me or my art". We get you Ben...we got you since day 1. Your name may change, but your spots will forever remain. You go off and do what you're best at...just remember, it's not making music. It's making waves, bragging, creating drama and manipulating the truth in an attempt to gain attention in hopes that people bow down and respect you. Then of course, your degrees and how you know so much more than we do come into play and the whole place just goes to hell while you type incoherently and without purpose.
 
You'll never have a leg to stand on in this forum other than those that feel sorry for you. I did at first but I have to admit, I'm tired of ignoring the poo on my lawn and I'd bet all that I own that the majority here are sick of it too. They just choose to ignore you because those who have tried to reason with you always get snapped at because that's the nature of Ben.
 
Sorry Mona Lisa! (I never cared for her either...not my type. Great painting that I could not better or come close to, but I don't feel she is a very attractive woman just like the sounds used in Bohemian Rhapsody were not attractive to me when solo'd. So sue me!)
 
-Danny

Trimph: I actually used to have a warehouse, but sold it in 2005. All my stuff is scattered between my house and my studios now. LOL! I got some really good old stuff that I should part with that I just can't seem to let go. I've been selling my guitars off though because they just sit here and are really worth something to people that enjoy the old classics. I had 48, I'm down to 16. No sense hanging on to these beauties if I don't play them, ya know? I think I'm done selling them off for now though. Just got rid of a few old amps too. The old stomp boxes, Electro Harmonix, Dan Armstrong and all the other neat little things, I'll probably hang onto for life. LOL! Glad you get stuff from my posts, it means a lot...thanks!

Ed: No problem and you're welcome. When that day comes, let me know. :)

Hockey: Ah, Atlanta....I'm usually in Griffon Georgia once a year for our annual Guitar War meetup. The host has since moved to Mexico for the time being so I had the last meetup in one of the big studio's I work out of. The guy let us have the whole place from Friday till Sunday. What a blast of a time. Nah I didn't go to the Bonnies Reunion or the recent Galaxy Reunion they just had. I was never in with that "clique" of people. They were mostly 10-15 years older than me, so I didn't feel it was something I would be into.
 
I still talk to quite a few of the stars from around here though on a regular basis. Tom Keifer from Cinderella, Reggie Wu and Mark Evans from Heavens Edge, Georgie Rumble from The Dead End Kids (he's doing an incredible Bowie tribute at the moment with Rod from Money and Mark Evans on bass) Jimmy Drnec...remember him? Dude is a big time attorney now. He's also playing in Reggie's new original band. I haven't heard them yet but I'm sure they're great.

Bill Mattson from Tangiers, Mark Chasen from WhiteFoxx, Frank from Krank (I actually was playing guitar with Krank for a few months) so quite a few are still around and playing. The only guy I know that has passed on from our time is Mario Perillo from Vulture/Oktober/Dora. Remember him? Incredible guitarist. Everyone else is still pretty much around and playing here and there. If there's anyone you were close to that you want me to say hello to for you, let me know. :) All the best in Atlanta brother...good talking to you.  

Rimshot: Thanks man, much appreciated. Yeah being mentored is quite a gift. I can't thank Wayne Davis enough for opening my eyes and smacking me around with tough love. Bob Katz was a huge help to me also. He's much easier to understand on the phone and through email than he is when you read his book. LOL! Beau Hill (famous producer/engineer from the 80's) has also been an incredible help to me. It's not every day we get a chance to call a guy on the phone and talk for 3 hours that has over 90 million total sales under his belt and one of the best track records for guitar tone in the rock business. So warm, considerate and one of those guys that never interrupts you when you talk. Yet when it's his turn, he has no bones sharing all that he knows.

I wasn't so blessed when I first got into this...like I said, people talked in riddles and never came right out and gave me the answers I was hoping for. From getting guitar tones to how to play something, how to do something, help with recording...I always failed with getting answers. I started to get help in 1998 and have been in good shape ever since. So heck, I try to give as much as I can back. :) We can all be useful on here and learn from each other. But we have to separate those that know things from those that wish they did and try to pull the wool over our eyes. If we don't, we can end up with too much confusion and never grow. Thanks for the kind words man. :)

-Danny

Danny Danzi

 
I don't like some of the sounds the Beatles got, but I love the Beatles. Oooh...I better build a fortress around me!
 
I can't stomach the sound of Steve Howe's guitar sound on the early YES albums, but I love YES.
 
I am not a Jeff Beck fan and though I appreciate him and can understand why people love him, he just never did anything for me.
 
I don't like Roger Daltry, Pete Townsend or his tone, but I love The Who.
 
I don't like Jimmy Page as a lead guitarist, but I love Led Zep. Ooooh...I better double that fortress now!
 
I don't like Bob Dylan's voice but I love his writing.
 
I don't like Neal Young's guitar playing but I like his tones and song writing.
 
I do not think Eric Clapton is God. I'd rather listen to David Gilmour or Eric Gales. Oh my, did he just say that? No he didn't...better enforce that wall with extra cement and sealer!
 
Janis Joplin was full of energy and a female icon, but had an annoying timbre to me.
 
I never liked The Greatful Dead and never understood why others did. Tones were always good though. Oh boy, now I've done it...9 trillion Dead Heads will show up my door and want to kill me!
 
I do not like The Rolling Stones AT ALL, but can understand why they are loved. Ok, that does it...someone will now drop a bomb on my house!

 

Are we brothers? Don't shut the door to the fortress just yet Danny, I'm running..

Hurry up James...I see torches outside! :) I'll sneak you in the back!

It's trivially obvious that recording techniques and production styles have evolved since bohemian rhapsody was made. Far from it being credibility damaging to suggest that it could be re-made better in a technical sense now, this should be obvious to anyone who has even half a clue what they're talking about. 

Whether or not you could make a record that people would in general prefer is another question, of course. Probably not, it is what is, and is a product of its time and place, and the kind of x factor stuff can't be reproduced. 

But BR is nearly 40 years old, for gods sake. And the reason the multi-tracks sound the way they do is because everything had to be bounced over and over again due to track count restrictions. Danny has said nothing remotely controversial on that score; BR is a very impressive example of overcoming constraints, but the idea that it couldn't be *technically* bettered in 2012 is just ludicrous. 

I just hope Ben is true to his word when he says "My one and only commment and defense:"

Anyway, I'm going to attempt to tangent away from all of Ben's utter rubbish and talk a bit more about modern mix techniques.

Someone recently advised me to take a listen to the 40th Anniversary Mix of the Doors' 'Waiting For The Sun' LP. Never been a fan of the band, personally, but that's not the point here. Usefully, both that version *and* the original mix are both on Spotify for comparative purposes. 

Anyway, while they've obviously gone to great pains not to change the essential character of it, it's very interesting. The new mix absolutely slays the old mix. It doesn't sound like a modern record as such, it sounds like a record from 1968, just the clearest, biggest, widest, lushest record from 1968 you've ever heard.

I don't think I'm sticking my neck out to say that this is largely down to technology. The tools available for mixing now are better than they were 40-odd years ago. And the level of understanding of the craft is better, amongst it's most advanced proponents. Both technology and technique are far advanced from what they were in 1968.

And to clarify further, it's not like the original 'Waiting For The Sun' is a bad-sounding record. It's actually pretty state-of-the-art for the time. Sounds a hell of a lot slicker than anything the Beatles were doing at the time, for example. But the new version takes advantage of what's now available and blows it out of the water.

Does this mean everything should be re-mixed? Probably not. The Doors job has been done very tastefully by someone who clearly has a lot of respect for the original material, but a thriving re-mix industry would almost certainly not be like that, and we'd be getting into the realms of colourised film and what have you. I suspect it would be done badly more often than well.

Returning slightly to Danny's earlier point, anyone setting these old records as their technical benchmark for sonic quality (not talking about the subjective experience of it as art here, just talking about the technical aspect) is a thundering idiot. Writing better songs than Queen is quite possibly a tall order. Making better mixes than their 70s LPs, though, is actually aiming pretty low. Go and have a listen to their Jazz LP. I - and many other members of this board - could do a better mix than that in my sleep.

That is what I like about this thing. At this point of time one can, in fact, have that better mix than what was available back then. 

And that, if one wanted to, one could do something like a tape saturation thing ITB...

Danny I see the point you made in the reply to my post. I'm glad there are people like you in this biz that can hear the subtle differences in the sound of the snare and the bass and all that makes a mix stellar as opposed to good. 

As I listen to many of the old albums and bands that were mega hits and packing the arena's of the day...I too cringe at the tone and quality that we thought was unbeatable back then. 

As a songwriter who pitches to publishers and producers, my goal is to know as much as I can to produce a mix in my studio that doesn't get thrown into the trash because the sound quality is not quite "over the high bar". My goal is broadcast/master quality (small "m") so that everything sounds good and can go direct to the producer or the artist, because no one these days takes the time to re-record a demo. I've even heard it said by songwriters in Nashville that the demo of "yesterday" is no more...... the "demo" of today must be master quality to get much of a second listen. 

I had the chance to hear the actual "demo" of a very well known #1 country hit in a seminar...and aside from subtle note differences in the parts and the lead singer's voice.... it could have easily been the same backing tracks on both... it (the "demo") was of that high of a quality.  They played both versions...the demo first and the hit song second.... back to back.  A casual listener would have thought it was the same song twice.

If I was producing for other folks, I would surely want to climb to the highest rung on the ladder possible. As a writer, my bigger concern is to have a song that is well written and with production of sufficient quality to get over the high bar of quality that is considered normal in the industry these days. 

That does not mean that I am content with my level of knowledge and skill..... by no means. I still read, study, listen, and do my best in the time I have for those endevours to improve my chops as engineer and producer. 

Oh and yeah.... on that list you put in post #71.... I pretty much agree with most of it too.

The beauty of how our brains work with sound is that if you want to listen to older music your brain will quickly accommodate the different sound, tone, precision etc and you may choose to sit back and enjoy the music and it can sound as great as it used to sound.

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary.

best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


The beauty of how our brains work with sound is that if you want to listen to older music your brain will quickly accommodate the different sound, tone, precision etc and you may choose to sit back and enjoy the music and it can sound as great as it used to sound.

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary.

best regards,
mike

I do love some of the guitar tone of the day.... Frampton (Rocking the Filmore.... just love the guitar tone) , Townsend, and many more, had some of my favorite guitar tones..... 

mike_mccue


The beauty of how our brains work with sound is that if you want to listen to older music your brain will quickly accommodate the different sound, tone, precision etc and you may choose to sit back and enjoy the music and it can sound as great as it used to sound.

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary.

best regards,
mike

+1

mike_mccue

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary. 

Is it just me or is that a lot of ears?
(sorry, I just could not resist)

bapu

mike_mccue

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary. 

Is it just me or is that a lot of ears?
(sorry, I just could not resist)

Well it could be 1006 people...

John T


Returning slightly to Danny's earlier point, anyone setting these old records as their technical benchmark for sonic quality (not talking about the subjective experience of it as art here, just talking about the technical aspect) is a thundering idiot. Writing better songs than Queen is quite possibly a tall order. Making better mixes than their 70s LPs, though, is actually aiming pretty low. Go and have a listen to their Jazz LP. I - and many other members of this board - could do a better mix than that in my sleep.

True enough. Also I think a great many albums from the '80's should be remixed by law, especially anything Phil Collins was allowed to produce.

jamesg1213

bapu

mike_mccue

You don't have to listen to it with 2012 ears... that is entirely voluntary. 

Is it just me or is that a lot of ears?
(sorry, I just could not resist)

Well it could be 1006 people...

All wanting to be louder than each other.

jamesg1213

Danny Danzi


I don't like some of the sounds the Beatles got, but I love the Beatles. Oooh...I better build a fortress around me!

I can't stomach the sound of Steve Howe's guitar sound on the early YES albums, but I love YES.

I am not a Jeff Beck fan and though I appreciate him and can understand why people love him, he just never did anything for me.

I don't like Roger Daltry, Pete Townsend or his tone, but I love The Who.

I don't like Jimmy Page as a lead guitarist, but I love Led Zep. Ooooh...I better double that fortress now!

I don't like Bob Dylan's voice but I love his writing.

I don't like Neal Young's guitar playing but I like his tones and song writing.

I do not think Eric Clapton is God. I'd rather listen to David Gilmour or Eric Gales. Oh my, did he just say that? No he didn't...better enforce that wall with extra cement and sealer!

Janis Joplin was full of energy and a female icon, but had an annoying timbre to me.

I never liked The Greatful Dead and never understood why others did. Tones were always good though. Oh boy, now I've done it...9 trillion Dead Heads will show up my door and want to kill me!

I do not like The Rolling Stones AT ALL, but can understand why they are loved. Ok, that does it...someone will now drop a bomb on my house!

Are we brothers? Don't shut the door to the fortress just yet Danny, I'm running..

... Perhaps title his book: "The Music Spirit".
 
(A hundred years ago, Robert Henri wrote "The Art Spirit" ... with very similar quakings for portrait artists.  Robert Henri was a top-drawer Western portrait artist but preferred writing and lecturing to inspire other neo-impressionist artists)
 
Having a great treasure and sharing it generously with other artists!: most great artists have grammatical and emotional issues ... we appreciate song-pictures more than the elements ... yet we have to labor, fight, love, and conquer on every level ... and then some ... protecting and guarding the treasure from thieves and self (self being the greatest enemy, IMHO).
 
Truth seems to me, a great mix may take a few hours ... but a lifetime of labor ... or vice versa.

Indeed. A hard drill makes for an easy battle.

Every mix is its own creation.

Every mix has some problems.

Every mix is the end result of choices made way before.

Every time Ben writes something it makes me like him and his point of view less.

jamesyoyo


Every mix is its own creation.

Every mix has some problems.

Every mix is the end result of choices made way before.

Every time Ben writes something it makes me like him and his point of view less.

The first three seem relatively easy to fix, no?

I say leave all the old mixes alone. All that music that was composed, peformed, tracked mixed and mastered came out of that era. Leave it there. It has all got a certain sound because of it. Remixing is not to change the art so much it is only going to change how it sounds.

Think new art now, new music, move forward, start with the latest music technology we have got and go from there. It's going to be a better sounding result as long as the music is still good. The thing about all the great recordings of the past is the music was great. There might be a tendancy now to be able to generate lots of average music rather than keeping it stronger and better. But if we still focus on the music then what we have now is only going to make it great.

What could be cool maybe is taking elements of mixes from the past and creating new music or material. That could lend itself to some interesting art. The only real older thing I would like to experience now is Earth Wind and Fire through a loud 2012 PA! That would be something!

Guitarhacker


Danny I see the point you made in the reply to my post. I'm glad there are people like you in this biz that can hear the subtle differences in the sound of the snare and the bass and all that makes a mix stellar as opposed to good. 

As I listen to many of the old albums and bands that were mega hits and packing the arena's of the day...I too cringe at the tone and quality that we thought was unbeatable back then. 

As a songwriter who pitches to publishers and producers, my goal is to know as much as I can to produce a mix in my studio that doesn't get thrown into the trash because the sound quality is not quite "over the high bar". My goal is broadcast/master quality (small "m") so that everything sounds good and can go direct to the producer or the artist, because no one these days takes the time to re-record a demo. I've even heard it said by songwriters in Nashville that the demo of "yesterday" is no more...... the "demo" of today must be master quality to get much of a second listen. 

I had the chance to hear the actual "demo" of a very well known #1 country hit in a seminar...and aside from subtle note differences in the parts and the lead singer's voice.... it could have easily been the same backing tracks on both... it (the "demo") was of that high of a quality.  They played both versions...the demo first and the hit song second.... back to back.  A casual listener would have thought it was the same song twice.

If I was producing for other folks, I would surely want to climb to the highest rung on the ladder possible. As a writer, my bigger concern is to have a song that is well written and with production of sufficient quality to get over the high bar of quality that is considered normal in the industry these days. 

That does not mean that I am content with my level of knowledge and skill..... by no means. I still read, study, listen, and do my best in the time I have for those endevours to improve my chops as engineer and producer. 

Oh and yeah.... on that list you put in post #71.... I pretty much agree with most of it too.

Thanks Herb, thats's kind of you brother. :) I'm a bit too anal with some of my listening though. It's both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes it stops you from enjoying something. Try as you may, when you know what to listen for as opposed to NOT knowing, you can't turn it off and on like a TV. You can TRY, but I'll never like some things due to the sounds that were used. I mean sure, I can listen and say "I love this tune, but dear lord that guitar tone is killing it" or "why did they have to sing like that and leave that annoying vocal eq".
 
As for your stuff, from what I've heard, it's safe to say you're meeting your goals. We can always count on something special from you. Other than a few drum things here and there (which you and I have discussed before) you never disappoint. Always good vocals, guitar, bass, melodies and of course a solid mix.
 
Your so spot on with the demo stuff being the master. If you got an Indy deal today, your mixes better be superb quality of they won't even look at you unless the material is just off the hook. See, most of the Indy labels have a 50/50 split deal. The 50 you get doesn't do much good if they have to spend loads of money on you.
 
For example, if you were going to release an album and the Indy label you were with hated the quality yet loved the material, they'd pay for you to go into a studio to do it right. So let's say that costs 15k. You owe them 15k now so until they recoup that 15k in sales, you don't make a dime. Once they do, you get 50% of the sales but not until. Making 15k back on an Indy album is a hard sell these days unless it's one of the better, more popular Indy labels. Most Indy artists are lucky if they sell 8,000 to 10,000 discs. The realistic number is more like 2500-4000 unless you hire a radio marketer and go for the throat. That's another cool thing about Indy's though...well, sort of cool. You usually get 100% of your publishing because they don't do any radio marketing. They can't afford $2500 per station, per play just to get to the try or die bin. I could go on and on about this...but now I'm drifting off topic. LOL! But you get the idea of where I'm going.
 
The more prepared and etched in stone your project is, the more of a chance you can do something with it immediately. If you have major label ties, totally different story of course. But yeah, people today want to take what you got and run with it so you always have to be in the best shape you can be in with a mix.
 
My list: I was actually surprised that there are more people that feel as I do. That's really great in my opinion. Just because someone is a star or a tune is a hit doesn't mean it's sacrilegious to comment negatively about it. It's like I try to tell my father who is a "by the book Catholic". Just because a priest or even the Pope says something...that doesn't mean you do it. We were talking about the whole gay marriage thing. He's totally against it because religion says he should be. I'm Catholic too...but I sincerely believe the God that I know and love wants people to be happy as long as they don't hurt anyone. I'd rather accept gay marriage than send our awesome troops overseas to fight a war that means absolutely nothing that has helped to ruin our country's economy. But that's a topic for another forum. :)
 
My point is, just because something is great, popular, "gospel" doesn't mean I have to bow down to it. Respect the art I do...but I don't have to love everything about it or feel I'd be reprimanded for mentioning things I feel just don't sit well with me. At my gig last night, there was a guy talking about B.B King being the greatest player because he helped to create the style. All well and good, appreciated, respected....but to a player in today's times, it's boring and repetitive. After 3 songs, you've heard it all. Techniques have improved. tones have changed, there is just so much more you can do on a guitar than the same 5 licks and 12 bar blues patterns. Sure, the dude is an icon and a part of history as an innovator. But so is Eddie Van Halen and we've taken things further than he has now too. :)
 
-Danny

Danny,

Your list was spot on for me as well.  I might add the Doors and Jethro Tull as never really doing anything for me.  But I can appreciate the song writing.  I better run for the door myself.

Further to that point, I think anyone who's really serious about trying to do good work will always want to try to improve on or progress from what's gone before. So listening to great records and thinking about what could be done better on them is a fairly automatic thing.

Mike: I almost added The Doors due o some of their moody, acid trip like tunes....but JM and that guitar player always got me going in the more up tempo stuff. Tull I kinda dig a times, other times...eh...take em or leave em. Then again, other than Cross Eyed Mary, Locamotive Breath and Aqualung, not much else from them impresses me on the whole. But I do dig some of the elements there. :)

John: +1000 man! If we just accepted things and never dreamed about bettering them, we'd never grow. You know what...I think I AM going to try my hand at that BR tune doing things my way. I really just want to re-record the bass, the drums and the guitars. The vocals are all stellar and Freddie just has to sing. Though I may make a cameo appearance on a verse or two just to say I sang with him! :) This is going to be my side project in my spare time.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. I've always loved Bryan Adams. You've heard the tune Run to You, right? I always thought that tune would sound super cool rocked up. A buddy of mine challenged me to do "a song in a day" with no chance to edit or fix it just to see how I'd fair. Came up with this...the whole thing took about 7 hours.

 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/RunToYouGW.mp3

It's not perfect, but it sure was fun! Actually better in higher quality which I never bothered to do because it needed to be posted on a site that only allowed for 128 bit mp3's. The only thing I hate is the freakin string squeaks in the clean intro....grrr...but the rest is pretty fair. But again...it's not better than the original, just different and a bit more modern. :)

-Danny 

See, I like this better than the original Danny.  You are one talented dude.  I love the raspy voice of Brian Adams though.  Your vocals are excellent as well. 

Ha, nice. Really big spacious sound, very three dimensional. I've never managed to record and mix on the same day without the results being... well, vastly inferior to this, for sure.

This lead playing at the end is the shizz.

Danny post number 3 was a totally courageous and enlightening post.

Anybody that cannot see you as a great asset to any music creation portal needs a schematic diagram shoved somewhere that is designed for exit only purposes.

To piddle around with pedantic detail to the point where you start to drive away those that are actual sources of inspiration and growth among the community is far more detrimental to learning than any amount of point scoring on a narrow campaign of some detail of marginal technical accuracy.

The OP here is no slouch when it comes to ability to the point where the attainment of further improvement will have to come from a more compelling source than someone just chiding away from a point of view of basic principles however sound or founded they may or may not be.

There is a certain person that likes to see 'the evidence' but when he's confronted with it cannot recognize it as being such and gets his nose bent out of shape in exactly the same way as he would riducule others for when it is put in front of him. 

That evidence of course is called the 'proof of the pudding'.

That person behaved toward you in a way I could not tolerate any longer and that put him under scrutiny and he doesn't like the same treatment meted out to him in reciprocation it for sure he gets just as defensive as he laughs at others for.  Not surprising really.

Danny I'm not even a particular fan of the music you make for no other reason that it is not my kinda thing, but one thing that isn't a matter of taste is the quality, the musicianship and expertise that shines out of all the work you do and when I see the results that you are able to transmit like you have to so many of us here I am truly in awe and I don't use that simple 3 letter word in it's normally over-used sense, I actually mean it.

I'm so glad that 'Captain Cryptic and his Know-Alls' doesn't headline this gig and that you are still around it is a tangible priviledge for all of us and hopefully you still benefit too despite some of the destructive tirades you've had aimed toward you that to my mind have been totally unwarranted and indefensible.

I must admit that I did enjoy the fact that one particular person that was so intent in trying to trash a perfectly usable and popular room eq system, and was prepared to gloat over what he percieved as your ignorance about this product with his superior knowledge, then went on to a few weeks later seeming to need a drummer to explain to him how the tuning of his guitar worked without the magic of what he was entertaining was to be provided by the idea of a fancy tuner...lol

The business of winning freinds has never been high on my priorities of a forum either, being able to state an honest and candid opinion of what I'm seeing and being able to ask a sincere question without fear of pointless ridicule though is, and that post #3 is 100% of what I like to see.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. I've always loved Bryan Adams. You've heard the tune Run to You, right? I always thought that tune would sound super cool rocked up. A buddy of mine challenged me to do "a song in a day" with no chance to edit or fix it just to see how I'd fair. Came up with this...the whole thing took about 7 hours. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/RunToYouGW.mp3 It's not perfect, but it sure was fun! Actually better in higher quality which I never bothered to do because it needed to be posted on a site that only allowed for 128 bit mp3's. The only thing I hate is the freakin string squeaks in the clean intro....grrr...but the rest is pretty fair. But again...it's not better than the original, just different and a bit more modern. :)

 
Good to hear some of your work with a frame of reference.  I thought it was really good and considering it was a day project, I'd give you major props.  I like your interpretation. 
 
My first paid project was to create three sound tracks for an artist who wanted to cover some soundtracks that she was singing over in concert and couldn't get a 2 track DAT master.  I highly recommend anyone starting out to do record copies and compare them to the original.  It will develop your ears as well as teach you that good arranging technique will produce a track that is easier to mix.
 
 

Mike: Thanks brother, that means a lot! Yeah I like Bryan's rasp too. I wish I could get it. I'm actually cleaner than what you heard which is why I smoke. Lame excuse and one I'm ashamed of. I stopped smoking years ago when I got horribly sick with pneumonia and when I was back to myself and healthy, when I tried to sing this really pretty thing came out vocally that just didn't fit my music. I tried everything I could to simulate my old voice...no dice. I had always carried my stale cigs around with me if I ever wanted one. Well, after I exhausted everything I said to my guys "the only thing I can think of is I've not smoked." So I grabbed a stale cig, went and had a smoke, got high off it because it had been a while, went back in to sing, and my voice was back. Strange but true. Been smoking ever since...stupid habit. I try not to abuse it..a few cigs a day.

John T: Thanks man...glad you liked the guitar and space. I wonder if it would have come out worse if I would have put more time into it. You how it goes when you're sort of pressured to do something. Sometimes less is more...sometimes more is over-kill. :)

Jon: Excellent post man. We always seem to be on the same page with things. I think though we are different stylistically, we're more alike than we know in other ways. Take the incredibly kind comments out of your post towards me (which I thank you deeply for...they mean a lot and I know you're not an easy sell compliment or power word wise...so that "awe" is well taken..ty!) and your post is even more of a reinforcement to my post 3. It sucks that we even have to go there at all. But, when someone is in need, I think we have to cut to the chase instead of answering questions in riddles. For example, there is one post on page 2 that isn't mine...see if you can find it.

It talks in riddles just like I mentioned to Bubba. As I read each line my answers were "huh? what? are you kidding me? what's that mean? how does this answer anything? I don't get it" and "wtf...you really ARE as clueless as I had always believed you are!" I'm sure you'll find it...it sticks out like a sore thumb with a blinking sign that says "I'm really just trying to make you think I know what I'm talking about...so to further confuse you, I'll talk in riddles and maybe you'll buy into it" Those are the answers I would get from people when I asked questions.

LOL @ Captain Cryptic...dude, I laughed so hard I snorted! I haven't done that since I was 10. Perfect name! Hahahahahaha! With the whole friends thing, you know as well as I do, we'd love to come away with a few at all times, but when you're on a forum where it seems to be a competition of the minds where we also have a lot of lurkers that may not take part because of the consequences of posting, you wind up making friends that you don't know you have...and of course, none of the good people should be punished or deprived because of those that make the "help business" an unpleasant one. Eventually people learn the truth and those that are problem children will be found out. When you see there are no replies to their posts (which I actually hope happens soon because it's the best punishment to show them no one cares and they have 0 credibility) then the community is taking care of its own. :)

Dave: Thanks man..I may have ruined it if I took more time. The HQ is a lot more clear...but it may show more flaws. LOL!! You know what else is good about the cover thing man? It's a no brainer for the most part. With originals, you're constantly checking every little thing because you either wrote the song or are writing it as you go along with the recording. With the cover tune, it's already written so you just play along and add a bit of yourself into it if you can. That alone takes away a lot of stress in my opinion. It's also really cool for testing out instrument ideas as well as different techniques. It's not like an original that may sit on your shelf because you can't quite finish it. The cover always gets done because the frame work is already provided...so it's awesome for reference like you mentioned as well as for other testing and lab work. That's really why I enjoy it so much. I have a whole slew of these things that I've done over the years. It's just so much easier to test things out this way in my opinion. :)

-Danny

Hi Danny, I'm late to the party I know but I just wanted to say that I always find your posts a great help. You are one of those on these forums that are happy to share some of your great knowledge on a subject but also humble enough to say when you don't know about something. Please don't ever stop posting what you do, I for one learn something just about every time.

Thanks to Trimph1 for the props earlier but I'd just like to say that while I like to think I know my way around Sonar pretty well and share what I know there, I'm not even on the same planet as Danny, Jamesyoyo, Tmidi and many others that regularly contribute their thoughts on the song forum and elsewhere when it comes to mixing and general audio knowledge.

That's what I love about this place, there's always someone with some great knowledge ready to plug the gaps in my own. Hopefully I'll continue to learn as they continue to post.

I learned a long while ago to filter out most of the noise...... I rarely bite anymore.

Danny,
  Nice job on "Run to you"  It sounds huge.  Nice version and better than the original in my opinion!   I used to do a ska/punk version of "Last dance for mary jane"  I would love to go back and track it just for fun.  Maybe I will ;)

I love the outro lead bro.   Maybe if more of the popular (shredder type) lead guitarists played with your tastes and melody I would have gotten more into being a lead player myself.   I was never impressed by people that would run the neck and pull off sweeps but it didn't sound musical.... it sounds technical.  This always turned me off when it came to lead work.  When I do lead it tends to be a little slower feely to avoid that.  What you do has a melody, a feel, and a flavor of it's own that adds to the song without standing in front of it, it's technically impressive as hell but it sounds great at the same time.  Nice job!

Karl: Better late than never brother! Thanks for the kind words. No worries, I won't abandon you or anyone else. Sometimes things just get to me...I'm only human. But we can't ever let those that upset us win because well, the good people that really enjoy what we do lose out and they always outweigh the not so good people.

Haha make no mistake, I'm far from a Sonar power user man. I use it like a big tape machine without any key bindings. Let's just say if you saw me work in it, you'd laugh at me. I know I'm totally missing the boat as far as commands and faster work flow goes. But I work fast enough and I'm content with how everything works...so it's all good.

Re the noise...I hear ya. I wish I had that "I'm rubber, your glue whatever you say bounces offa me and sticks to you" (lol) mentality...but unfortunately, it's a flaw in my character. I'm actually much better now believe it or not. I had to punish myself and keep in-doors. I'd go out, someone would look at me for over 5 seconds and well, I had to just say "you got an eye problem...do ya want one?" Then reality set in....here I am with long hair like a chic, a better butt than most of the chic's I know, baby face that doesn't show any beard stubble, how can I be upset at someone for trying to figure out if I'm a man or a woman? LOL!!!!! Silly me! :-Þ

Nah...seriously speaking, I just hate when people cop tudes. There's no reason for it. There's enough fighting in the world. The last thing in my mind when I sign on to a forum is to have to defend myself...however, I have no problems doing so if I need to. It's actually a good thing though because each time it happens, that's one less person I'll never offer a word of advice to for the rest of my days and I can concentrate on helping people that actually care about what I have to offer. :)

Chuck: Thanks man! I'd like to hear your version of Last Dance...that's a cool tune! I hear ya on the shred stuff. Believe it or not, I swear I actually feel the same way. The good thing about growing up in the 80's for me was there was some definite skill in those players. But it got to be more of a sport than a weapon. When it starts sounding like a dude running scales like he's practicing in his room without any feel, direction and the lack of a story line, well, I can appreciate some of the techniques that go on, but to me it sounds like mindless wankage. I do that from time to time...I admit it. But I always do my best to do something with melodic value. You know... a beginning, a middle, a climax and an end type solo. If it fits the song, I'll open up a bit. If it doesn't, I won't even think about it.

The other thing that I think you did good on by avoiding that technical stuff is, you can spend a lifetime honing your chops to do the shred thing. Seriously man....it can easily become a drug once you get into it. Then what happens is, you become this robot that can play some cool leads, but you become a one-trick-pony that also may struggle to write tunes. I used to know guys that were so sick with shred that they couldn't even play rhythm or write a single riff. They would just solo over backing tracks. They'd make you go "wow" but after 10 minutes, it's like..."ok, you play lead good dude...what else can you do?" That's one thing quite a few shredders lack that you don't....the ability to write a song...and write a song with a hook that people can relate to. If I had to choose between insane tech and writing good songs, of course I'd choose to have a bit of both...but if it were one of the other, good songs would win hands down for me. Thanks again brother. :)

-Danny

That was a killer version of "Run to You".It was perfect,it rocked way harder without being to much or taking away from the orignal song.The lead playing at the end was awsome,parts of it sounded kind of Richie Kotzen like.
I've learned alot reading Danny's posts.

Clearly a huge difference between the original and your version..and your version rocks!! This one has space all over it...great stuff!

Danny, I think I'm totally going to have to book you for one of those video mixing tutorials you do of one of my songs for my album in a good 6 months time when they are ready. Would be great to have a really nice mix that I can then learn from to bring all the others up to scratch. Will email you in the future to discuss!!

I paid Jim Roseberry to tell me what components to get to build a nice stable computer and it was money well spent. I'm all for utilising some of the services we can get off people here! We get loads of free information off you guys on these forums so it'd be good to put a little extra $$ back into the pockets of you all!

I love you and hate you Danny...... Love you for sharing your knowledge and the great posts you make. Hate you when you post something as good as "Run to you" 'cos it makes me realize how far I've got left to go.....

Steven: Thanks a lot! I know you don't post a whole lot on here, so it was really great to hear from you! Hahaha...funny you mention Kotzen...years ago, I got an offer to work with Mike Varney and that whole Shrapnel Records thing with all the guitar maniacs. I was really into Kotzen at that time when he played a lot more crazy stuff than he does now. He was way more neo-classical.

I was so hooked on guys like him, Jason Becker, Stephen Ross, Tony MacAlpine, Yngwie, Paul Gilbert. Looking back on those times though....it was one big head-ache for me because I was always so competitive with myself. I'd get to a good level and some new monster would come out on that label and I'd wanna hang myself because I couldn't do what they did. It was never about music for me during those times. It was more "guitar as a sport". Granted, I have no regrets about how I turned out...but I sure am glad I put the whole "olympic guitar acrobatics" thing to the side and learned how to write. :) Glad you liked the song and my posts....I appreciate that! Post more often and get involved with us...it's great to hear from you. :)

Matt: when you are ready brother, let me know and I'll hook you up. Quite a few good men coming out of the woodwork that I am having a blast working with. Some well noted and respected guys on this forum too which had no problems saying "ok, I do this stuff sort of good but I submit, what's wrong with me...fix me Danny!" Usually one vid is all it takes on an entire song and you just "get it" because in reality man, you're already there. You just need certain things pointed out to you, that's all. As soon as you see them and hear them with the differences included, this light bulb goes off in your head and it all makes sense.

The only way I can explain it other than when a nasty storm leaves your area and the clounds part would be...I used to have these long prayer sessions with God when I'd get depressed. Losing my mother really did something to me and I was in search of answers. One night I had a dream that I was sitting on my floor crying my eyes out. This voice came out of nowhere (and I knew it was Him) "one day, all the questions you ask will be answered. Stop worrying, you're not and never will be alone." From there I had the greatest dream about my mom that I'll never forget. It was so real to where it seemed like it was planted in me purposely.

My point in that is, when you see and hear this stuff being applied...."all your questions will be answered" too. You'll come away with that "ah, now I get it!" feeling. It's all right there in front of you really...it's just that at times, there are loads of things we talk about on forums to where no one bothers to show you examples of.

Or, you buy this book that shows you all this stuff and it's a good read....it talks about compression and all this stuff, yet never shows you how to do it or what to listen for on YOUR material. This is where something like this can really help. One quick story for you...this is actually pretty funny.

I was playing guitar and doing everything I could to learn as much as possible. There was this guitarist that sold video's named Doug Marx. The dude looked all cool...typical rock star, all the cool clothes, gear, everything. I had never heard him play, but heck, he looked cool so I bought the entire video lesson collection. Well, to my disappointment, he was horrible man. I'm talking so bad, I could cook the guy in my second year of playing and at this time, I'd been playing for about 10 years. However, this dude went through everything you could ever want in a lesson video. He talked about various amps, how to set them up, effects loops vs. direct in the amp, and most of all...effects.

He had this one vid (he also supplied audio cassettes of the video so you could listen on the road) that showed nothing but effects and when he got to compression, to this day it was the best representation of compression that I have ever experienced. He literally showed you what to listen for...how to tell when it's working even if you don't necessarily hear it, what he liked for fast comps and slower comps...that video itself was worth the entire price I paid and one of the only ones that made a difference in my life. He covered intonation, truss rod adjustments....pup wiring...so that stuff was cool too. But the compression thing....this is where people need to hear examples. Most guys don't even know how to use a compressor the right way because it's an effect that can be used in so many ways. They think "ok, if I don't hear it, it's not working" when in reality, the best compressor IS the one you don't hear working to an over-used extent.

This helps your mixes improve drastically in seconds because nothing is running amuck in your mix. Curbing eq's that are problematic allows for LESS compression to be used. You find out how all this stuff literally walks hand in hand. It's just amazing how little things like "ok this is what THIS sounds like and this is what THIS sounds like" can make an everlasting impression on what you do today as well as what you'll do tomorrow. So yeah man, when you're ready, send me a message and we'll talk. I think you'll get a lot out of this stuff. :)

Karl: LOL!! Thanks brother, feelings are mutual! You got that cool accent going on in your vids...I need that! People will take me a bit more seriously! Intead they get "yooo dude, dis is Danny D...tanks for givin me da chance to teach you a lil som-tin you baystid!" LOL! I've actually been trying to watch that. LOL! I can seriously turn a lesson into a comedy for some people...and SOME welcome it because the entertainment factor plus the learning thing keeps you on your toes. :) For others, I know they'd get offended...so I keep it a bit more proper and less "yooo dude!!" with the big tour hug. Hahahaha! You're too kind to me man...thanks.

Just remember man...someone like me has nothing else in this world other than music. No wife, no girlfriend, no kids, no 9-5 job you hate, my family has all just about moved away from me and it's just my dad, me and my music. I have the time to put into this where others do not. So it puts someone like me in a different place only because I have the time. You know how it goes...the more you do something, the better you get at it, right? If you and others had the time, everything changes man. Not to mention I was involved in all this music stuff playing different instruments since I was 4 years old believe it or not....started as a drummer. So it's all I know really and I'm STILL not where I want to be!
 
And hey, you're pretty knowledable yourself there buddy! You've done some really cool videos that have been useful to me and many others. I'd never think of doing vids like them because...well..umm..to be honest, my work-flow will always suck unless I learn the ways of the dark side. Hahaha! But, where I lack there, I try to make up for in the production aspect. So not all hope is lost. :) Thanks again man. :)

-Danny

Danny Danzi

Chuck: Thanks man! I'd like to hear your version of Last Dance...that's a cool tune! I hear ya on the shred stuff. Believe it or not, I swear I actually feel the same way. The good thing about growing up in the 80's for me was there was some definite skill in those players. But it got to be more of a sport than a weapon. When it starts sounding like a dude running scales like he's practicing in his room without any feel, direction and the lack of a story line, well, I can appreciate some of the techniques that go on, but to me it sounds like mindless wankage. I do that from time to time...I admit it. But I always do my best to do something with melodic value. You know... a beginning, a middle, a climax and an end type solo. If it fits the song, I'll open up a bit. If it doesn't, I won't even think about it.

The other thing that I think you did good on by avoiding that technical stuff is, you can spend a lifetime honing your chops to do the shred thing. Seriously man....it can easily become a drug once you get into it. Then what happens is, you become this robot that can play some cool leads, but you become a one-trick-pony that also may struggle to write tunes. I used to know guys that were so sick with shred that they couldn't even play rhythm or write a single riff. They would just solo over backing tracks. They'd make you go "wow" but after 10 minutes, it's like..."ok, you play lead good dude...what else can you do?" That's one thing quite a few shredders lack that you don't....the ability to write a song...and write a song with a hook that people can relate to. If I had to choose between insane tech and writing good songs, of course I'd choose to have a bit of both...but if it were one of the other, good songs would win hands down for me. Thanks again brother. :)

I completely agree, and I have met several of these guys along the way that couldn't play rythem enough to earn themselves a spot in the band.  Thanks for the props on my songwritting Danny.   Ya know it's funny.... Over this past winter I had every plan to take both guitar lessons to learn some theory to become more well rounded, and some classes with a vocal coach because I am sure there are some bad habits I have aquired.  I got so busy and spent every spare moment trying not to suck as an engineer so that the record would be sound good that I never had time to do either of them.  MAybe next year when business slows down again I will get to tackle those and check them off the list of things I really need to do.

Jeff Evans


  The only real older thing I would like to experience now is Earth Wind and Fire through a loud 2012 PA! That would be something!

This thought puts a huge smile on my face. Get me a ticket when it happens... I want to hear that too.


:-)

ChuckC

Danny Danzi

Chuck: Thanks man! I'd like to hear your version of Last Dance...that's a cool tune! I hear ya on the shred stuff. Believe it or not, I swear I actually feel the same way. The good thing about growing up in the 80's for me was there was some definite skill in those players. But it got to be more of a sport than a weapon. When it starts sounding like a dude running scales like he's practicing in his room without any feel, direction and the lack of a story line, well, I can appreciate some of the techniques that go on, but to me it sounds like mindless wankage. I do that from time to time...I admit it. But I always do my best to do something with melodic value. You know... a beginning, a middle, a climax and an end type solo. If it fits the song, I'll open up a bit. If it doesn't, I won't even think about it.

The other thing that I think you did good on by avoiding that technical stuff is, you can spend a lifetime honing your chops to do the shred thing. Seriously man....it can easily become a drug once you get into it. Then what happens is, you become this robot that can play some cool leads, but you become a one-trick-pony that also may struggle to write tunes. I used to know guys that were so sick with shred that they couldn't even play rhythm or write a single riff. They would just solo over backing tracks. They'd make you go "wow" but after 10 minutes, it's like..."ok, you play lead good dude...what else can you do?" That's one thing quite a few shredders lack that you don't....the ability to write a song...and write a song with a hook that people can relate to. If I had to choose between insane tech and writing good songs, of course I'd choose to have a bit of both...but if it were one of the other, good songs would win hands down for me. Thanks again brother. :)

I completely agree, and I have met several of these guys along the way that couldn't play rythem enough to earn themselves a spot in the band.  Thanks for the props on my songwritting Danny.   Ya know it's funny.... Over this past winter I had every plan to take both guitar lessons to learn some theory to become more well rounded, and some classes with a vocal coach because I am sure there are some bad habits I have aquired.  I got so busy and spent every spare moment trying not to suck as an engineer so that the record would be sound good that I never had time to do either of them.  MAybe next year when business slows down again I will get to tackle those and check them off the list of things I really need to do.

Totally with ya brother. Just remember one thing...if you ever do decide to learn theory or take those vocal lessons, make sure that you just take from it what you feel you need without going over-board. You have something man just the way you are. Fresh, original yet with a hint of your influences. That's a good thing. When you start learning the theory and other stuff, it can sometimes really alter you. Granted, the extra stuff you pick up can make you 1000 times better than you are now...but they key is to keep that dirt you have under your fingernails. Theory and all that goes with it sometimes automatically makes you polish yourself.
 
Sometimes that polish is the death of you. Can you picture Nirvanna being theory monsters? I think the band would have tanked. Cobain just doing what he did while going with his emotions....inspired a generation...like him or hate him. You've heard of George Lynch right? Dude was great...until he graduated from GIT. I can't listen to him for 10 seconds now. What was once heart, soul, feeling and off the cuff experimental brilliance has now turned into "I went to GIT, hear my new scales that I still can't play very well that I really shouldn't be playing live just yet". He's so into the tech thing he's become robotic, stale and actually sloppy because he's attempting to play over his means. So if you tackle that stuff brother, take the good from it...challenge yourself a bit, but keep that heart and feel you got going on. Theory and vocal lessons can help...but it can actually hurt too if you aren't careful.
 
Don't take any of this the wrong way....I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I'm just saying at THIS stage in your life, you have achieved an identity in your songwriting that takes years for some people. "That sound" is where it's at. Ever buy a piece of gear for your business or whatever....it worked great forever...you read something that mentions how you can upgrade it and make it do something better....you do the upgrade, and the thing never works the same way again? I can't tell you how many times I've had that happen.
 
As a matter of fact, I had a vocal coach one time that was an awesome singer. When I finally started to cop the techniques he was showing me, my voice started to change in a way I wasn't happy with. Sometimes our natural ability is better than anything we can be taught. Then again, with the right teacher and you learning the right things to further help you with what you already know, and you can be way better off. It's finding that right happy medium that may take some time. Just be careful if you go down that road. The last thing you want (though it would be cool!) is for you to write a song for you band, got to sing, and you sound like Steve Perry from Journey! Hahahaha! I personally would welcome something like that for my music...but for yours...I dunno man...lol! :) Could you picture your guys lookin at you and saying..."dude, what the heck is wrong with you?!" And you reply "I dunno guys, I'm singing properly now and this beautiful thing is coming out that I can't stop!"
 
That's actually another myth....meaning...I was taught when I took my lessons that "when you learn how to sing properly, you can simulate a damaged trachea and add in all the rasp you want". Pff...maybe for them or other people....dude, I was singing so clean, I couldn't even scream like Rob Halford anymore. As a matter of fact, to this day I can't sing like that anymore yet my normal voice minus the falsetto is higher than ever. The good thing is, I probably saved my voice from being fried. Too much improper singing and you could mess up your pipes for life. So I'm kinda glad I can't do the Halford thing anymore. But I do miss it from time to time. I still can't simulate rasp either...unless I smoke a Newport or something. Singing proper just stopped me from doing anything out of character. I think the reason was because I had a really hard time learning the vocal techniques. Once I found a happy medium of me and what I was being taught, then everything opened up just right. You'll see if you ever try it...like I say though, just be careful....if you come back sounding like Barry Manilow, I'm coming after you! Hahahahahaha! :)
 
-Danny

I don't know what happened to my voice but at one time I was a tenor..then I ended up with a cold/laryngitis like thing and found that if I spoke in a lower voice I could still talk..my singing voice went from tenor to baritone/bass...very strange that.

And no lessons to boot....

I missed Earth Wind and Fire. They were here in Melbourne on April 4th. Apparently they got a standing ovation before they played even. Not bad eh! Concert was amazing I believe.

mattplaysguitar


Danny, I think I'm totally going to have to book you for one of those video mixing tutorials you do of one of my songs for my album in a good 6 months time when they are ready. Would be great to have a really nice mix that I can then learn from to bring all the others up to scratch. Will email you in the future to discuss!!

I paid Jim Roseberry to tell me what components to get to build a nice stable computer and it was money well spent. I'm all for utilising some of the services we can get off people here! We get loads of free information off you guys on these forums so it'd be good to put a little extra $$ back into the pockets of you all!

 
Matt
I did  /  Do Both of these.
 
MONEY WELL SPENT!
 
Both of these people are the best you will find.
I could not recommend them or their service to us enough.
Clifford

Danny Danzi


Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. I've always loved Bryan Adams. You've heard the tune Run to You, right? I always thought that tune would sound super cool rocked up. A buddy of mine challenged me to do "a song in a day" with no chance to edit or fix it just to see how I'd fair. Came up with this...the whole thing took about 7 hours.

 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/RunToYouGW.mp3

It's not perfect, but it sure was fun! Actually better in higher quality which I never bothered to do because it needed to be posted on a site that only allowed for 128 bit mp3's. The only thing I hate is the freakin string squeaks in the clean intro....grrr...but the rest is pretty fair. But again...it's not better than the original, just different and a bit more modern. :)

-Danny 

That's a cracking version Danny, I loved how you came out of the breakdown, that made me smile. Excellent lead on the outro, channelling Guthrie Govan a little there.

With mixing, you are learning a language. Each spoken instrument has a place...has a voice and must be carved up to it sits in the mix. If you aren't taught how to handle this stuff, you're not going to just get it on your own. You can read all the books in the world and watch all the videos in creation. You're not going to learn a thing until someone shows you what to listen for on YOUR material.

This is a good thread and this little point really jumped out at me. I KNOW I am a totally visual learner, if I can see someone do it or if I can somehow visualize it I may learn it... if not, forget it... I am not going to get it.

Thanks for all the help. It is like help in knowing how to get help. I sure need it and appreciate it.

Julien

Thanks Clifford! :)

James: Hahaha you're too kind....Guthrie is like my new hero...but I can only listen to him, I can't cop a single lick....he's just a mutant! Glad you liked the tune, thanks! :)

Julien: Yeah it really is like learning a language...and it's actually easier than most people think. If you have good monitors that are showing you the right stuff and then have someone to show you certain things, the results are pretty instant for the most part....especially on problem areas. :)

-Danny

Frampton (Rocking the Filmore.... just love the guitar tone

Me too... it sounds like the Marshalls are on the very edge of meltdown... are you sure it wasn't Mariott?

J

Humble Pie...now there was a band...