Time...

Danny Danzi


Once I found a happy medium of me and what I was being taught, then everything opened up just right. You'll see if you ever try it...like I say though, just be careful....if you come back sounding like Barry Manilow, I'm coming after you! Hahahahahaha! :)
 
-Danny

...So you don't wanna hear my version of Copacabana?  LOL

You have a version of Copacabana?   


I'd wanna hear this!!

Sadly....would you believe someone challenged me to sing "Hold on to the Night" by Richard Marx? Yeah...I took the challenge and did it. LOL!!! Didn't turn out too bad considering it was all done on a 4-track cassette tape recorder and bounce after bounce after bounce. I so don't miss those days.

-Danny

I'm going to break Danny's (generally sound) rule about not just posting links and say that this thread is the best thing I have read on the internet about recording and mixing, and is worth more than all the other text on the internet about recording and mixing combined: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283

Hey John.... thanks for posting that. I poured over page one then saw that there are over 50 pages when I went to open page two. It seems like it is really going to be a great help. Really.. thanks! This thread is good too!

I have a real strong tendency to over complicate anything I don't understand before I even get into it, so I start out discouraged. Much I have read both here and there have helped me to remember that first it is about the song. I've realized that I really need to learn where all my tracks sit in the frequency spectrum so that I can know whether to boost one thing or cut another to get the desired result... see, I am learning!

Big thanks to Danny too!

Julien

It's a great thread, that one buy Yep. I'll have to have a smash through it again some time. I believe some guys on there have made a summary of all his answers only so if you look near the end you should be able to download a pdf of just the good stuff.

I like this comment he makes on the first page:

"Take a great-sounding CD and record it through your soundcard. Play back the recording. If it still sounds great, then you know that your soundcard is capable of rendering great-sounding recordings. No more blaming the interface.*
Next take the same CD and play it back through your monitors, recording the playback with your favorite mic (this is actually how the earliest records were duplicated). Still sound good? No more blaming the mic, cable, or preamp. If it doesn't sound good, then go back to the above post and make sure that your monitors and room acoustics are up to snuff. Even the lowly SM57 should reproduce a pretty accurate picture of whatever you point it at. "

-1  Unfortunately, I can't recommend Yep anymore to help with mixing issues. 

Here's why:

With utmost respect to Matt and Yep, I feel Yep, while interesting and clever,  became sort of a glorified-troll (know-it-all).  He 'completely abandoned' our forum 2-3 years ago, iirc.

Yep has always been rhetorical ... to lovingly 'hook' us fearful noobs, IMHO.  Then his statements have often left me hanging, becoming oversimplified, salesman-like, and swerving, like: 

"Here's the secret to golden ears" ... "anyone can do it"
... "listen at low volumes" ... "
... "but it requires a certain amount of careful, educated, practiced listening"

(LOL!  NOT!)

(In reality, Golden ears are rare and complex: They are rock-star singers and producers themselves:  They perform multiple instruments with strong conviction and vibe.  Such individuals sacrifice their time to listen for others, have great patience, great love, innate talent, and are compulsive composers who love music and art on numerous levels.  They don't troll for attention.  Their songs are extremely sincere and have message-hooks and vibe that edify others.)

Many worship Yep here and on the Reaper forum.  JMO/IMHO.  Can Yep even sing?  Who knows?

Also, I'm afraid Yep's lingo is old school; a has-been artist of sorts; and/or a performance driven guitarist who appreciates little about sampling and dancing, etc.,

... who never listened to your/my recordings, never produced anything public, nor collab'd with any of us.  Please prove me wrong (any of you) ... and I will retract my observations as false witness.

IOWs, there are too many *teachers*, like Yep, who talk the talk but never walk the walk.  OTOH, Yep did love dialogue, all of us have loved Yep at one time or other.

Now I know many of you believe you love Yep, so you can hand-wave me as an trolling idiot who knows nothing at all (LOL).

A better solution, IMHO:

Without trying to patronize anyone, my mixes seem to benefit greatly via dialogues, collaborations, "ears" (not necessarily golden-ears) ... with many of own proven veteran teachers, friends, etc. (and even my enemies) here ... but those who are decent enough to post their music, whose music we can hear, feel, taste, and touch:

Like Bit, Robbie, RLD, NoHow, TruckerMusic, Reece, Larry&James, MGH, Yoyo, Danzi, Bat, Matt, Herb, Jeff, Jon, Yoropal, Julianna, Ben (yes Ben) and all the FAITHFUL listeners/singers on songs-forum, etc., etc.  

Note: I'm always willing to try to collab or dialogue with any of you ... just PM me.

Philip


-1  Unfortunately, I can't recommend Yep anymore to help with mixing issues. 

Here's why:

With utmost respect to Matt and Yep, I feel Yep, while interesting and clever,  became sort of a glorified-troll (know-it-all).  He 'completely abandoned' our forum 2-3 years ago, iirc.

Yep has always been rhetorical ... to lovingly 'hook' us fearful noobs, IMHO.  Then his statements have often left me hanging, becoming oversimplified, salesman-like, and swerving, like: 

"Here's the secret to golden ears" ... "anyone can do it"
... "listen at low volumes" ... "
... "but it requires a certain amount of careful, educated, practiced listening"

(LOL!  NOT!)

(In reality, Golden ears are rare and complex: They are rock-star singers and producers themselves:  They perform multiple instruments with strong conviction and vibe.  Such individuals sacrifice their time to listen for others, have great patience, great love, innate talent, and are compulsive composers who love music and art on numerous levels.  They don't troll for attention.  Their songs are extremely sincere and have message-hooks and vibe that edify others.)

Many worship Yep here and on the Reaper forum.  JMO/IMHO.  Can Yep even sing?  Who knows?

Also, I'm afraid Yep's lingo is old school; a has-been artist of sorts; and/or a performance driven guitarist who appreciates little about sampling and dancing, etc.,

... who never listened to your/my recordings, never produced anything public, nor collab'd with any of us.  Please prove me wrong (any of you) ... and I will retract my observations as false witness.

IOWs, there are too many *teachers*, like Yep, who talk the talk but never walk the walk.  OTOH, Yep did love dialogue, all of us have loved Yep at one time or other.

Now I know many of you believe you love Yep, so you can hand-wave me as an trolling idiot who knows nothing at all (LOL).

A better solution, IMHO:

Without trying to patronize anyone, my mixes seem to benefit greatly via dialogues, collaborations, "ears" (not necessarily golden-ears) ... with many of own proven veteran teachers, friends, etc. (and even my enemies) here ... but those who are decent enough to post their music, whose music we can hear, feel, taste, and touch:

Like Bit, Robbie, RLD, NoHow, TruckerMusic, Reece, Larry&James, MGH, Yoyo, Danzi, Bat, Matt, Herb, Jeff, Jon, Yoropal, Julianna, Ben (yes Ben) and all the FAITHFUL listeners/singers on songs-forum, etc., etc.  

Note: I'm always willing to try to collab or dialogue with any of you ... just PM me.

 
That almost brought me to tears Philip, you are a true scholar and a gentleman.  I wish I could say more but I think I don't need to with you.
 
Hugs and Peace Ben

He may or may not be able to sing and you think his lingo is old school? That's your criticism? 

Whatever. 

John T:  that's not what I got out of Philip's post.  those were just secondary complaints, the main complaint Philip made was:

Yep has always been rhetorical ... to lovingly 'hook' us fearful noobs, IMHO.  Then his statements have often left me hanging, becoming oversimplified, salesman-like, and swerving, like: 

"Here's the secret to golden ears" ... "anyone can do it"
... "listen at low volumes" ... "
... "but it requires a certain amount of careful, educated, practiced listening"

or in other words:  he didn't ever really give practical, real life answers.

I don't necessarily agree with Philip on this completely.  Yep did give some good practical advice.  I have some of his advice on compression and recording vocals on my website.  But I do see where Philip is coming from on some things that yep didn't really explain.

Philip


-1  Unfortunately, I can't recommend Yep anymore to help with mixing issues. 

Here's why:

With utmost respect to Matt and Yep, I feel Yep, while interesting and clever,  became sort of a glorified-troll (know-it-all). 

Well, any guy that would title his mega-post "Why your recordings sound like @$$" certainly has the know-it-all part down cold!


After reading what Philip wrote, he did cause me to reconsider Yep some. While I don't doubt that much of what he knows is indeed true, he is so jaded that he can't really explain it anyone other than those on his knowledge level. Thus, for everyone else it comes across as confused and patronizing.


And there are tons of know-it-alls on the X1 forum who seem to know everything about recording, yet their own work (if they ever bother to post it) is shockingly amateurish. And I mean I was completely shocked in a few cases. Being not much more than an advanced hobbyist myself (I make a couple bucks here and there), I still would never spout off so much, pick fights over how right I am, and then produce such slapdash crap. It is embarrassing.

But that's the Internet for ya. 

Well, pulling out that particular "golden ears" stuff, Philips specific complaint is that Yep is wrong that this is something anyone can do, and he asserts this is because "In reality, Golden ears are rare and complex: They are rock-star singers and producers themselves: They perform multiple instruments with strong conviction and vibe. Such individuals sacrifice their time to listen for others, have great patience, great love, innate talent, and are compulsive composers who love music and art on numerous levels. They don't troll for attention. Their songs are extremely sincere and have message-hooks and vibe that edify others".

Now that's just plain claptrap.

For starters: there are loads of really good engineers out there who don't play, sing or write songs at all.

Weeeellllll.... 


I'm not sure that Yep is all that bad...he may be a little bit more salty for some however.


But I am not going to quibble with his expertise that is for darn sure....

Yes, there are plenty of excellent engineers who aren't good musicians.  one job is not equivalent or even a prerequisite for the other.

BUT if someone claims to be able to do both and declare themselves an expert, then when they post their stuff and it's obviously amaturish, then they have no credibility to back up their self proclaimed expertise.

Well, that's certainly true.

Thanks John, Reece, James, Ben, and all.

The blind leading the blind has been a concern of late.  I don't consider any of you blind leaders, however.  But Yep left us because he was not of us.  He never went to war for any of us, despite his loving words.

My personal opinion(s) on "golden ears" may be wrong.  The definition of 'golden ears' has a compound meaning anyway.  Perhaps all of us have golden ears some of the time ... those all-penetrating ears that can decipher vibe, beatz, acoustics, etc. etc.

What does "go to war" mean, in this context?

"Go to war" with our song battles:

Yep never critiqued our songs, never collab'd, never immersed himself in our song struggles, never demo'd his *excellence* for us noobs to follow.  He was all talk and no bloody (song) action.

Yep, IMHO, preferred to be 'teacher of babes', with ear-tickling words about every facet of song creation.  All of us noob-pioneers were amazed by Yep!  He 'understood' DAW domains and rock; he encouraged us to finish our battles ... but without ever getting his own hands dirty.  Yep seemed a beloved politician working on paper alone.  He only critiqued our words, iirc!

"Finished is better than perfect" ... hahahahaha!  Ear-tickling stuff!

By old-school mixing: I meant: performance driven wide-dynamics 80's music (vs. sample driven): Yep spoke highly of real expert (garage) guitarists, singers, and drummers (to me) ... while eschewing fake ROMplers, Samplers, hip-hopsters, and recent pioneering ... that never involves real expert guitarists, expert singers, nor expert drummers.  

Yep loved Motown (when I cornered him to state his favs).  Hahahahaha!

Yep gave us some invaluable signal chains and such to be sure.
 
I love Yep but wish he would have joined in some of our battles ... as many of you joined in my battles.  What good is an advisor that never shares your battles.

Today the beatz-master and DJ rule in skating halls and dance halls ... world-wide. 

IOWs, Yep was a godsend for us noobs, an excellent politician (except for monster cables) who encouraged his troops to go to rock-war, but hid himself during our serious song-battles. 

Who was this Yep anyway?  What were his songs and song motifs?   Could Yep even tune a guitar?  Did Yep ever sing a message at all?

Where are you my old friend, Yep?  I miss you!  You are the fantom phantom of hope for us all!

For all we know Yep could be Bruce Swedien, or he could be some kid in his basement. Without hearing anything, how can we tell anything of what he says is right?

The old Russian proverb comes to mind:
trust, but verify.

Finished *IS* better than perfect. In that "hypothetically perfect but not finished" is worth more or less nothing. Also, I'm not sure why anyone is obligated to participate in the Songs forum. I don't particularly myself.

Got to be honest Philip, this all reads like some personal beef you've got. All the way through that thread he says over and over "If you think this is bad advice, or it doesn't apply to you, please ignore it". He also states very clearly that he's not worked on anything particularly massive or earth shattering. The guy's just an ex-jobbing engineer. The very *last* thing he does is invite people to worship him as some kind of guru.

And what does this mean? "Yep loved Motown (when I cornered him to state his favs). Hahahahaha!" Are you seriously saying that rating Motown is somehow credibility damaging?

IIRC Sonar is THE Motown DAW.

I don't know. Yep might have been anyone actually, so what? The point is/was that he had some very good ideas/points as well. 

I do not believe that he was all bad, just as he may not have been all good either. People are a little more than just one side or the other...

trimph1


I don't know. Yep might have been anyone actually, so what? The point is/was that he had some very good ideas/points as well. 

I do not believe that he was all bad, just as he may not have been all good either. People are a little more than just one side or the other...

+1 Triumph, John, FastBikerBoy, Jim,
 
Interestingly, I love Motown an aweful lot!  Who doesn't?
 
Unfortunately, I suffer like the Op.  Ironically, the Op has helped me mix much better than Yep!  Of the 30-40 songs I've posted, the Op has critiqued every one of them and encouraged me to excel.
 
You guys that never critique me nor post songs ... I have little love and respect for, just like Yep.  To each his own I guess.
 
OTOH, I do hear the little Yep's voice in my consciousness every time I mix. :)  fwiw.

Feel free to arbitrarily have "little respect or love for" people for flimsy reasons. I imagine you'll reap what you sow. incidentally, I have no view on the qualities of your music, but your song explicitly equating atheists with chIld molestors is not winning me over, conceptually. 

Ah sorry, it's not atheists, it's anyone who thinks evolution is real. Forgive me. 

John T


Ah sorry, it's not atheists, it's anyone who thinks evolution is real. Forgive me. 

Well, I believe in evolution and yet I don't have the urge to molest children. Maybe I'm unique? I do, however, have a renewed understanding of why I quit going to church.

Enough!! JT, you have hit a new low, NO RELIGION!!! Even I don't touch this subject!!!

I don't listen to Philips songs and hear what you are hearing, I hear some really cool production, I know there is some quasi religious message undeneath the layers but the thing is the wondeful layers.

You can inhabit these boards and no one can stop you except The Cake but your treading on thin ice, this thread has gone way off topic, even though funnily enough what Philip has written is on-topic, in that those of who do post in the song forum are trying to help each other, become better engineers, producers, songwriters and musos. And that is what BOTR original post was about.

It's time to move on and put away our schoolyard slings and arrows away and this includes me, everybody brings something to the table/forum.

Peace Ben

I heard a few times over the years where people would tell me "dude, you remind me of Yep in some of your posts!" This of course made me say "who is Yep?" When I checked him out and read his posts, I saw him as a knowledgable dude that had to really be into this stuff or studied hard to gain that knowledge. I respect the guy and think it's a shame he's faded somewhat.

That said, there will always be things that get said that we may not agree with. There are quite a few posters on this forum that I think have no business trying to teach others about audio. I can appreciate the effort but let's face it, some just can't pull the wool over our eyes. However, thay HAVE shared other priceless pieces of information that show they know a little about something. You take the stuff that applies to you and ignore the other stuff. When Yep sort of made me disagree with some of the things he said, I stopped reading and went to another part of his post. Some things I thought were brilliant. Other things...just not for me.

I take the same stance as Yoyo on this.

"And there are tons of know-it-alls on the X1 forum who seem to know everything about recording, yet their own work (if they ever bother to post it) is shockingly amateurish. And I mean I was completely shocked in a few cases. Being not much more than an advanced hobbyist myself (I make a couple bucks here and there), I still would never spout off so much, pick fights over how right I am, and then produce such slapdash crap. It is embarrassing."

This is so true, it actually hurts. That said, there are certain people that have a way of explaining themselves to where I can buy into it. For example, not to single out Drewfx, but I've never heard a single thing he's ever done. However, I would not ignore his advice on anything because he's a good communicator, an intelligent man and you can just tell he knows what he's talking about. His posts are always good, he's never claimed to be a god, he's never pulled an attitude like he knows everything, and he only comments on stuff he truly knows something about.

If I were sharing info in a thread and he came into and said "hey Danny, have you ever tried this that and this for that effect?" If I never heard of it, you better believe I would try it. If a few other guys said the same thing, I'd not give it a second thought unless they were people I held in high regard or those who have shown us examples of their work.

That part, I think Philip has spot on. It's a bit hard to really read novels from people that have never proved themselves in this field. Seriously, that's not meant to sound harsh on anyone, it's just human nature. That doesn't mean a person not sharing their material is less credible...it just means that for some of us, it just may not hold as much weight because they are just talking by example, not leading by SHOWING actual examples. I think we all need that in this field because as I have said a million times before, most of the time you are a better engineer than you know...you just need to be taught how to listen to some things or be taught how to achieve certain things using YOUR gear and YOUR software.

At the end of the day, I've always took what I could from someone trying to help and passed on the things that either didn't make sense, I tried them and they failed, or the subject matter wasn't something that interested me. That's really how you have to go about this stuff. Pick and choose accordingly, try the stuff...if it works, it's credible, if it doesn't, maybe that technique is not for you or maybe the person teaching isn't doing such a good job. It certainly does help if there are actual examples to go along with the text though..make no mistake there.

As for critiquing songs, that's a really hard thing to do for me anymore. I have found my honesty is often times not accepted by the majority, so I only show up in instances where I feel the song poster can handle what I have to say. If I can't be honest and be me, I simply "can't be".

-Danny

As for critiquing songs, that's a really hard thing to do for me anymore. I have found my honesty is often times not accepted by the majority, so I only show up in instances where I feel the song poster can handle what I have to say. If I can't be honest and be me, I simply "can't be".

I usually post at work (which I shouldn't be doing, but that's another story) and if I'm at home I'll be doing my own music so very rarely venture over there. But one thing bugs me a little - when I see someone post a song and everyone says "wow that was great" "loved it" "amazing" etc. Though it's nice for the poster to read these comments, I see the main point of posting songs there is to get feedback on how to improve. I really don't see the point in saying anything if you have not got some constructive criticism to go with it. I don't think I've ever posted without giving some feedback on what I thought didn't sound right to my ears. Not to say that what I hear is right or not, but every listener has worth in comment, I think.


I get so much more from people who rip my songs to shreds and tell me what's wrong. But some people aren't willing to take the criticism and improve. So be it! Their loss! I embrace it :)

I've learned not to comment on people's song. Sometimes they don't take it well. If I don't like a song I move on. If I like a song  I may comment. But I haven't done that in long time.

You guys that never critique me nor post songs ... I have little love and respect for, just like Yep.  To each his own I guess

I've only posted a couple of songs in the songs forum and only occasionally critique others. That's for a very good reason and one I mentioned in the first song I posted. I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about. That'd make me as bad as the posters that roll up on the X1 forum declare this or that crap because most of the time they don't know how to use it. I think the ability to use a program and one's ability at producing the subject matter of that program aren't necessarily interlinked. I know plenty of kids can leave me dead on a motogp computer game but give me a real racetrack and motorbike........

OTOH I do know plenty about how to use Sonar and X1 and so spend most of my time trying to help others get the best out of the program. If that makes me a bad person so be it. If we were all great at the same things it'd make this collection of forums a pretty poor place to visit.

I do get what you are saying about qualified to comment but again just because someone doesn't post in the songs forum it doesn't make them unqualified, any more than posting stuff makes someone qualified. IMHO there's some great posters on the songs forum - Danny Danzi, JamesYoYo, TMidi, Bob Oister are amongst a few that spring to mind. I wish I could produce stuff like that. I have heard a couple of things JohnT has done (by accident elsewhere IIRC) and his productions are really good as well, but AFAIK rarely if ever posts in the song forum. It's not compulsory is it?

As it's been mentioned there are a couple of posters that post with the greatest authority on everything yet whatever I've heard from them is even worse than my stuff. At least I know where I am in the audio world pecking order and it's in a completely different position to the "how to use X1" pecking order position.

Isn't that the point of these forums though? Bring your knowledge to the table to share, and leave what you do know behind for others to learn from? That's what I try to do as do many others, just it's not always the same knowledge being brought in or taken away.

BTW a big thanks to all those people that do share their audio production knowledge and help me get better, it is working even if it doesn't always sound like it.

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

 
I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 
 
I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

 
I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 
 
I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

I feel everyone is qualified to critique. It just kinda depends on the level of detail your are qualified to give.

If anyone listens to a song and says "I think it just sounds too busy, there is too much going on" or "I really struggled to hear the vocals. The guitars just drowned it all out" has plenty of credit to do so. These are all very important things that ANY untrained listener may hear. We get so involved with out music that it's hard to step back and listen clearly. I regularly get friends with ZERO audio technical experience and listen and see what they think. "I like that guitar part, it sounds cool" or "that bit really bugs me". These are great.

It's the technical advice that not everyone is so qualified to give. The technical advice that may be needed to fix the above issues. The untrained person says "that sounds wrong", and the trained person says "this is why it sounds wrong and this is what you can do to fix it". If we don't even realise there is a problem in the first place, we can't try and fix it. There is no guarantee that the trained guy is going to hear that same issue you heard (or even the mix) and provide the solution. Sometimes the best we are going to get is "the guitar just doesn't work for some reason." That's much better in my opinion than ignorance of any issue at all. We can then delve into the issue further and try and fix it through experimentation or learning from others.

Chappel

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 

I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

I've always found your contributions to be well intended, well structured, informative and usually spot on!
These forums would, in my opinion, be considerably less enriched without your contributions.


Stick to your principles man! Don't let a couple of cyber bullies have their way. 


Besides, don't we all have a duty to help people out? Isn't this really the point of human existence?

I am happy to receive advice from anywhere and judge its value for myself.  Everyone is an expert at something and ought not to be discouraged from sharing useful insights.  In any field, music included, the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers.

I feel everyone is qualified to critique. It just kinda depends on the level of detail your are qualified to give.

That's very true. I was thinking more along the lines of technical advice rather than an opinion on a song.

There's also the time issue. I spend more time on these forums than is healthy anyway and I'd rather be helping out on the X1 forum than anywhere else. I take plenty from these forums in places that I perhaps don't comment in as much, such as this forum for example.

The X1 forum is where I give back a little where I can, hence the videos in my sig. I find that side of it i.e. how to do something in the software very easy. The part I struggle with is knowing when to apply it or what I need to do to put something right. Or sometimes even hearing what is wrong in isolation in the first place.

My last song I posted in the song forum was technically abysmal (and that's being generous) I'd got so involved in it that I could no longer hear how bad it was. It wasn't until I got some great advice on the song forum that I went back fixed it and when I A/B'd the mixes I could then hear how she-ite the first effort was. I thought people on the Song forum were very polite about the way they told me that. My point is I couldn't hear what was wrong until I listened to a 'good' better version. That's why I don't feel qualified to comment on the technical aspects of mixing and such like.

I like to think that my being aware of that and keeping quite is more helpful than giving crap advice.

At least were back on topic, well sort of.

The only thing I can add is, sometimes it gets confusing on the song forum.  The way I handle the song forum is if they ask for advice, I will give my advice and tell the composer what I would do in his or her situation. 

Hey I know I've put up some crap mixes and to some, some crap tracks but I'm in my own world and it's more about what I like, so it's not that I don't listen to people when they say a)or b) it's just I know where I am at.  Also there are a couple of aggressive types on the song forum (with me), including me but I don't take that aggressiveness onto the song forum.  I mean you are talking about peoples art for christs sake.  Some gentleness and tact is required.  But if I don't like a track, I will be as gentle as possible, funnily enough there is very little I don't like and this includes James YoYo. 

I have mentioned James because I gave him a kick the other day and the fact of the matter is I like most of the stuff he posts.

What we have to remember is this is such a subjective art and all art is, so what I think is great and what others may think is great can be two different things.

Finally there are a few of us who do have a clue about mixing and mastering and those of who do have a clue need to put it away and try and understand we all have our field of expertise.  Mine is about the art and perspective.  James and Danny are more technicaly minded and can express themselves better but we can all offer something to this great big cooking pot, called music as long as we all put our egos aside, yes and this means ME!!

Ben  

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. Better than being so full of yourself as others seems to be. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

guitarmikeh

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

Thanks Mike. I didn't mean I think I'm complete rubbish. I'd give up if I thought that, just I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people a lot better at it than I am. I aim to get there one day but whether I do is another matter of course, won't stop me trying though.

I think the point I was trying to make is that nobody knows it all or are good/have natural talent at everything. What I lack in technical engineering ability I make up elsewhere hopefully. As I said earlier that seems  to me to be the point of the forums, bring what I do know and takeaway what I don't. Of course some think they just bring because they already know it all anyway. Those that don't think they need to still learn never will unfortunately. Again that's true in just about everything in life.

Some are stuck permanently in their early teens. i.e. think they know everything but in reality know very little.

FastBikerBoy

guitarmikeh

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

Thanks Mike. I didn't mean I think I'm complete rubbish. I'd give up if I thought that, just I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people a lot better at it than I am. I aim to get there one day but whether I do is another matter of course, won't stop me trying though.

I think the point I was trying to make is that nobody knows it all or are good/have natural talent at everything. What I lack in technical engineering ability I make up elsewhere hopefully. As I said earlier that seems  to me to be the point of the forums, bring what I do know and takeaway what I don't. Of course some think they just bring because they already know it all anyway. Those that don't think they need to still learn never will unfortunately. Again that's true in just about everything in life.

Some are stuck permanently in their early teens. i.e. think they know everything but in reality know very little.

Totally got that, brother! The point I'm trying to make was about the enjoyment of it all. Or the enjoyment of specific things whether it be technical prowess, the ability to teach,  the need for a pat on the back or just bang around. It's all good IMO. I do have a little trouble expressing myself well. enjoyment is the key factor I believe. If you enjoy it who needs validation from some supposed Internet guru? Unless that what you want (not anyone specifically). I can't write anymore it's 4:30 am here. I hope I made sence. I'm tired. 

Chappel

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 

I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

Aww Chappel, don't feel like that brother. I don't think anyone meant it the way you may have taken it...or...I'd think it's safe to say the majority don't feel that way. I think it's nice to hear from everyone whether they are qualified or not. I mean...the thing to keep in mind there, it depends on what advice (if any) a person may be looking for. When I've shared my songs on the forum, I wasn't looking for advice...I was just sharing the song. That's not meant to say I don't welcome the advice I might receive, but when I post something, it's usually done enough to where I'm satisfied with it or I wouldn't post it at all.
 
For example, we can listen to a song "as a listener" and say whether we like it or not. Yet, from an engineer stand point, there may be other things that can be offered. I try my best to accept something for what it is, not what I feel it should be unless the song I'm commenting on came from someone that I know for sure want's to hear my take. At the end of the day, all the production and techniques aside, the common listener (imho) has a bit more pull than the dude that may be a seasoned pro when it comes to this stuff. We've heard incredibly produced music that wasn't always a good song, ya know?
 
Most of us couldn't pick our own hit song if our lives depended on it anyway. LOL! I have a song on one of my albums that really did well with airplay and royalties. I would have NEVER in a million years thought it would have done as well as it did. It was a song I liked, but not one that I would have EVER thought would get play at all. The songs I would have picked as songs that might do well weren't the ones that were requested live or for radio. LOL! So who better to pick stuff like that? Right...the common listener that may not know anything about production, techniques or the like. 
 
The common listener is the buyer and they'll tell you when something may not be to their liking without commenting on the production aspect. But since this is mostly a forum that deals with how we use Sonar and quite a few are interested in making things sound good from a production stand-point, you're definitely going to get the production comments as well.
 
The problem there is when someone may not be qualified to comment on stuff like that. When we are learning, we need the most accurate comments possible in my opinion or it can send someone on a wild goose chase and they could waste loads of time.
 
For example, I've been into construction for a long time and know a decent amount about it. However, I've always been a helper/grunt worker in that field and would never even try to tell someone what they should do while building their house....and I've helped to build 4 houses from the foundation to the finished product and have done loads of remodeling. It's something I know a little "about" but not something I'd ever offer advice on in a major situation.
 
But never stop commenting man....and never feel self-conscious when giving your opinion. As long as the delivery is good and no one gets offended by "voice for the sake of a voice" type comments (which you've never done) I wouldn't worry about it.
 
The other side of the coin is the extent in which people want to improve their production. I would say the majority that post around here DO want to know how to improve things. But even there, the initial delivery is what needs focus. When I comment on something, I always give the positives in a tune as well as the negatives. Some of the negatives may be subjective and I try to keep those out, but if something sounds blatantly wrong like a kick drum lacking low end or a bass guitar with too much boom to it....or frequency masking etc...I try to always comment on stuff like that because in my opinion, that's no longer subjective to my ears even though it may have been the intent of the writer.
 
At any rate, definitely don't take a break and please don't stop sharing your opinion. There are some people you can help, some you listen to and appreciate...others, you just move on if the song doesn't do anything for you. But don't ever feel self-conscious or not qualified bro. We need more good guys like you taking part. :)
 
-Danny

Of my 6000 or so posts, the vast majority of them have been in the song forum. The vast majority of those are simply "a listen and a nod" to the artist. On occasion, if there is something I hear that I can help correct, I may offer advice. But, to me, the purpose of the song forum is to get some exposure and some moral support. I offer a "well done" when many others may not. Nobody is actually qualified to make negative criticisms (especially me, though I have given a few, usually in response to somebody with a large ego that does not seem to match their skills). It is also a challenge to listen to genres of music I hate (like Christian or country), though I still try hard to be as positive as I can. However, I do not reply to those who post and walk away, or those who do not support others in the song forum. In those cases I will not even listen to their song when posted.

one paragraph. whew thank you. I get blurry eyed when some blathers on and on and on.
talking about the songs forums and the critiques of said songs.

what would be the proper technique or procedure for review and comment.

first thread then down. but that would place older thread on top and newer threads on bottom??

or

should you review and comment on older threads first then work your way to the top? leaving the newer thread topside. 

I always wondered. 

I don't know if there is any "right way", but I start at the bottom, and work my way up. This helps to keep the "current position" of the song on the page.

I just listen to the ones that catch my interest, for whatever reason. Can't be doing with analyzing it too much, it's just a place I enjoy visiting.

And that is what it is all about, I think James. We all have our own ways of doing things, none of them are wrong. It is about having fun, first and foremost, in either the creation or consumption process. And only each of us as individuals can decide what that is for ourselves. And like most things in life, we get back what we put into it.

Since a few members (no, I'm not going to name them) have lamely ignored the time I took to listen and then comment on their songs, I've just about stopped frequenting the songs forum. And I use to do quite a bit of listening and commenting. I still visit from time to time but rarely listen to any of the regular posters anymore and when I do..., I don't comment or keep it very light. It's my loss as I use to enjoy it tremendously but to tell you the truth, these members I'm referring to above can shove it where the sun don't shine..., and then twist it counterclockwise until they choke. There, I said it, proudly and publicly. 

Like I said, I can't be doing with analyzing it...

"foxwolfen"
And like most things in life, we get back what we put into it.

Really? 

Alegria


Since a few members (no, I'm not going to name them) have lamely ignored the time I took to listen and then comment on their songs, I've just about stopped frequenting the songs forum. And I use to do quite a bit of listening and commenting. I still visit from time to time but rarely listen to any of the regular posters anymore and when I do..., I don't comment or keep it very light. It's my loss as I use to enjoy it tremendously but to tell you the truth, these members I'm referring to above can shove it where the sun don't shine..., and then twist it counterclockwise until they choke. There, I said it, proudly and publicly. 

So..you're denying yourself the pleasure of doing something you enjoy, because of a perceived slight by unknown person(s), who will have no idea that they're supposed to be 'shoving it'.

"jamesg1213
So..you're denying yourself the pleasure of doing something you enjoy

I'm not denying myself anything at all. The "Songs" forum is certainly not the only place where to have a listen. 

"jamesg1213"
 ... because of a perceived slight by unknown person(s)

It's not perceived, I can guarantee you that.

"jamesg1213"
... who will have no idea that they're supposed to be 'shoving it'.

Whether "THEY" have an idea or not of what they're suppose to do is really not my concern, but the therapeutic benefits have already been felt. Quite a load just came off my chest. 

Positives all round then, excellent.

Interesting choice of words James. 

I may be guilty of offering a lot of engineering advice, but seriously:
if the song doesnt do it for me, should I say nothing? Offer false praise?

If the singer croaks like a dying frog, they probably know it. They don't need me to tell them. They also don't need me telling them they sing like an angel.

Here is where I am coming from:
After a while, one pretty much knows the extent you can expect from regular posters, both in execution level and genre. And it is a pretty "giving" group. Even if it is not your cup of tea, don't they deserve something back? So instead of saying "great song, could listen all day" and be lying through your teeth, you can help them out with what you're hearing, and offer little ideas to make it better sonically. I much more want critical responses then praise.

As for the song itself: most times it is posted completed. You can offer ideas on arrangement (which having a DAW is not so hard to mute instruments or add an element), or on the mix. But the song is done...not many will take advice on moving choruses or changing keys or deleting intros or recording new melodic ideas because they have poured blood sweat and tears into it and THEY ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT. I get so many good ideas for my tunes from the Forum and I still rarely have the inclination to re-do it. Always be moving forward is my policy.

I listen to songs and try...HAH!! ...to give some feedback..such as THAT is.


I am not a music critic by any means. Nor do I, hopefully, come off as one...if anything my so-called commentary should be seen as something from a hobbyist...