Time...

I know that the guru's here? The mix-masters have knowledge, templates, practiced techniques? And I really look up to a lot of people here.
 
Then there are others who are really pretty good?
 
Then there are most people?
 
And then? There's me...
 
My goal is to rise to the level of "pretty good." But the time involved? The time is like a job? I put one up recently, it was "OK" I tweaked it quite a bit, it's better, but it's still OK.
 
I've taken some advice from some people I respect, and had to go back in and re-do some things... And listen, and redo some things, and listen, etc... It's taken a week, and I'm probably 1/2 way there? My problem previously (and still) is that I'm an artist 1st. I record, I track, and when I'm done? I do a quick mix, and try to improve it based on feedback. But what I want to do is put out a 1st mix where people listen and say, "hey that's pretty good!" I have a lot of the performance aspect down. I fight with the mix... But it seems like, if you slow down? If you listen to each track, and listen objectivly, and see what needs an envelop, what needs EQ, and what needs to be "re-recorded?"
 
I think this is what the people who are really good at it do. Like sniffing a carton of milk to see if it's off? They just have really well trained noses/ears. You can hide a bunch of "crap" in the mix, with compressors, and limiters, etc... But another thing that the people who do this "really well" do, is they separate the wheat from the chaff.. On the way in, before the mixing/mastering.
 
I still don't understand it "well." But I am trying hard... My next remix, I want a few folks in particular to stand up and take notice. But it takes "hours", "days", "weeks..." I think people who do it quickly are especially gifted.

Look for what little my opinon is worth, it took me ten years of these experiments and I mean hours of pouring over mixes old and new, then all the courses.  Mixing is an art and an a science.  And I'm not saying I am one of those people you refer to.

When it started to gel, it was understanding where the frequency of the different instruments sit.  This helps with masking and deciding what you want at the front of the mix and at the back of the mix.  It also helped with the understanding of how to EQ.

Then I learn't about compression and it all started to gel but then there was something else to learn, effects, bussing, then mastering, recording and all of a sudden it's full on.

Then it's about historical perspective and esoterics, which I have been arguing with and over with fellow forum members.

And we haven't even started talking about the song writing process, my head is starting to hurt just thinking about all of this.

So much more to learn and one life is not enough to learn!!

Neb

bandontherun19


I know that the guru's here? The mix-masters have knowledge, templates, practiced techniques? And I really look up to a lot of people here.
 
Then there are others who are really pretty good?
 
Then there are most people?
 
And then? There's me...
 
My goal is to rise to the level of "pretty good." But the time involved? The time is like a job? I put one up recently, it was "OK" I tweaked it quite a bit, it's better, but it's still OK.
 
I've taken some advice from some people I respect, and had to go back in and re-do some things... And listen, and redo some things, and listen, etc... It's taken a week, and I'm probably 1/2 way there? My problem previously (and still) is that I'm an artist 1st. I record, I track, and when I'm done? I do a quick mix, and try to improve it based on feedback. But what I want to do is put out a 1st mix where people listen and say, "hey that's pretty good!" I have a lot of the performance aspect down. I fight with the mix... But it seems like, if you slow down? If you listen to each track, and listen objectivly, and see what needs an envelop, what needs EQ, and what needs to be "re-recorded?"
 
I think this is what the people who are really good at it do. Like sniffing a carton of milk to see if it's off? They just have really well trained noses/ears. You can hide a bunch of "crap" in the mix, with compressors, and limiters, etc... But another thing that the people who do this "really well" do, is they separate the wheat from the chaff.. On the way in, before the mixing/mastering.
 
I still don't understand it "well." But I am trying hard... My next remix, I want a few folks in particular to stand up and take notice. But it takes "hours", "days", "weeks..." I think people who do it quickly are especially gifted.

I've been seeing you make a mention of this for quite some time now in bits and pieces in various threads. It's obvious that it must be really bothering you. Can I be honest with you? I mean brutally honest? This won't make me any friends on here, but to be honest, I'm not in the friend business when it comes to this forum any more. So you can take this for what it's worth. But if you really want to learn and be done with this once and for all, here's what I'd do.
 
Before I go there, I've heard your mixes and they aren't bad at all. Decent quality for a hobbyist and you do what you do very well. If that sort of quality isn't enough for you and you want to take things truly to the next level, here are my suggestions. (and where this may get ugly) The first 2 sentences in #1 are all that applies to you. The rest of that is for those that will forever remain clueless and pollute these forums. You can move onto the bold, black 2.
 
1. Stop listening to people on this forum that talk a good game that don't post songs with the quality that you want yourself. The more you listen to friends that are supposedly "in the know" the more you sit there and spin your wheels.
 
The rest of this is not directed at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it with pride, report me, ignore me, come get me or do whatever makes you happy.
 
I've watched several arm-chair know-it-alls post bogus crap on these forums in hopes of either sounding like they knew what they were talking about, or they were sincerely trying to help while not realizing they were/are hurting people that may be really trying to learn. Then there are a few on here that go all out like they are something special...then you listen to their material and their credibility disappears. Need I say more?
 
For those that think they are teachers on here all of a sudden that fit the above bill:
 
Rule of thumb 1: If you don't know how to teach and aren't getting good results yourself, don't try and teach another person. You're killing them and this forum with fallacy and are misleading people that do not yet know how this stuff really works. Mods should ban you before they ban someone for mentioning they use "the competition" or because of their discrepancies due to some of the apparent flaws in Cakewalk software.
 
Rule of thumb 2: If you can't go into detail to tell someone how, when, or why to fix something while having the right recipe that REALLY works, have the ability to deliver the right description while in the right frame of mind like a normal human being with a pulse and a sense of compassion, do us all a favor and don't post anything negative. Actually, don't post anything at all...especially if someone is really crying out and trying to learn. All you'll do is further confuse them with your infinite...ummm...whatever you want to call it but make no mistake, it is NOT wisdom. Mods should ban you for drama and for being an attention prostitute that doesn't care for anyone but themselves packing this forum with garbage...post after post.
 
Sharing links on the subject further confuses people. If you can't tell it in your own words in a language that an unexperiencied person can understand, don't bother wasting the space. If you do this and then try to be intimidating on top of it, how about just don't? I have a degree in hearing. The scope of my hearing test says "you suck and quite well I might add...so well in fact, you are nearly at the engulf stage".
 
I can explain something in one long post that *most* people will understand way better than your stupid, boring, cop of another persons findings that sound spoken in a language other than English. In school that was known as "Cribbing". Don't let the net fool you, you're still not a good engineer no matter how good your search engine leads you to believe. 
 
The day your friends start telling the truth is the day they really become your friends. We got enough sugar coating and horsesh!t around here to create our own Candy Land board game. There's nothing wrong with being nice, but for heaven sakes, when someone delivers something that sounds bad and is a Richard Cranium on top of it, don't feed their ego because they are your friend or you feel sorry for them. Just think, if everyone were more honest, we'd not have the creature known as "he whos name we shall not mention". You guys built him, now the rest of us are stuck with him. Thanks.
 
(Ok, rant over. I actually feel better now. Not that it will do a thing or solve anything, but it sure does feel good to say it and read it.)
 
2. If you want to learn this stuff bandontherun, it's best to have someone literally teach you. You can sit here listening to 10 different people telling you what's wrong with your mix. That does nothing for you if you yourself do not know what to listen for on your own. It can actually confuse you because you are getting too many people telling you things. That said, you CAN be taught. I had to be taught certain things and I'm not ashamed to admit that. 
 
You mention: "I think this is what the people who are really good at it do. Like sniffing a carton of milk to see if it's off? They just have really well trained noses/ears."
 
That's exactly right! And guess what? You don't even have to be really good. I know guys that can't mix to save their lives, yet for some odd reason, they can tell me things about my own stuff that need work and they are spot on. Kinda like a music teacher that may not know how to really play an instrument too well that may have the teaching/theory part down. But again, you have to know when to take this stuff as "gospel" and when to take it as a load of crap or for the sake of a voice.
 
In my realm, life has taught me to listen to those who can put up as opposed to those who put up nothing and should shut up. Do you chance having a house built by the guy that has never shown you a beautiful house he's built himself or he may have built a fair/below average house yet talks a great ball game? Or do you trust the guy that built the mansion down the street that makes you drool every time you see it that also talks a good ball game and can back it up? Ok, so you're not into mansions, the dude with the "fair" build may be your man then. Whatever works. I prefer the polished mansion. It's like singing, you learn the right way to sing first, then you can degrade your voice with rasp or strain if/when you need to. Build the mix the right way the best that you can, then go for a dirty analog sound or something if you want down the road.
 
When someone has a good set of trained ears as well as the right listening environment to make the right calls, there is no thinking/guess work of any kind. You don't listen to something and say "hmm, I wonder what could be wrong with this mix? Let me open up 9 different scopes and check it out." Mixes also take way less time. Anything over 2 days and you got a problem. 2 days is too much for me.
 
When you know what to listen for, it leaps out at you. A mix tells a trained set of ears what is wrong with it on its own, the flaws show themselves and they are easily heard. You have to learn how and what to listen for first and foremost. When you accomplish this, it's like smelling that carton of milk. You usually don't have to sniff twice because you know on the first sniff that there is a problem or there isn't.
 
However.....have you ever had an iffy carton of milk? One you weren't sure of, so you may have smelled it 5 or more times or maybe had to taste it? LOL! We sometimes DO have these types of issues in the audio field. Sometimes what you think you hear may not be the problem. So you either have to "taste it" and experiment a bit with an eq, or check it out with an analyzer.
 
3. If you're so tight you squeak money-wise, can't put in the time due to family or job etc, make excuses that have excuses, nothing is ever going to change. I can't tell you how many dudes have come begging me to help them with recording lessons only to cry about my prices, say they can't put in the time, this and that got in the way or they didn't have the money yet buy every plugin that comes out. 
 
Guess what...I don't want people like that. If I needed the money I wouldn't want people like that. I want people that want to learn that will do some work too. Not people that expect me to do everything for them to where I become their tech support. I'm not in the tech support field for cryin' out loud. 
 
Things in life cost money, they can take time and sometimes they need to be lived and experienced. If you have neither the time, the money nor the patience, you'll have to make due with what you have and just suck it up while understanding that you're not going to grow as fast. I can mix the same song 300 times. If I don't know what I'm doing, one of those times I may get lucky...but I could be doing this for 2 years before the right mix luckily comes from it.
 
Tip of the day: Don't ever fall into the trap like "those that shall remain nameless and clueless". If you ever don't know something, say you don't know. The people that act like they know everything would be way cooler and welcomed with open arms if they just fessed up that they didn't really know much at all. Instead, we are left with...well, you know the deal there. 
 
4. There is no science in the part of this field where YOU need work in my opinion. Try not to listen to those parts until you get an idea on how to make things work first and get involved with the science part later on if you wish. I assure you, knowing what to listen for goes further than any scientific offering in this field. Ask a real producer/engineer to listen to a mix on any set of monitors and he'll be able to instruct you on what HE would do. There's no science involved other than "The science of knowing what the hell you're talking about". The problem is explaining the things your ears hear in a language that you/another person can understand which could be considered "science" but other than that, stay away from it for now. Trust me. Then again, if one of the science guys we all love and respect happens to come on here and offer advice on this, it's always best to listen and give them the benefit of the doubt if it makes sense to you.
 
5. I notice you have massive respect for Yoyo. Why not try to make it worth his while and have him take you under his wing? If that's the quality you want, that's the man to talk to in depth. Any time you get someone you truly respect to comment on your stuff, take it seriously and try your best to do what they tell you. You won't get what they get if you don't listen. Then again, you need to be able to apply what they tell you. If you can't do this, the information provided will not help. That said, the information provided is only as good as the messenger that delivered it. Was he/she in depth? Did they explain things right, or were you lost? That's like saying "fix my car" without telling the mechanic what's wrong with it.
 
6. Most importantly, if you do not like the quality of material and/or information I have shared during my entire time on this forum, please accept my apology, totally ignore this post and disregard it. Do the same with any other post you read on this forum from anyone else that doesn't lead or show by example. The sooner you stop listening to those that are considered "realistically clueless", the sooner you just may get this stuff down. Good luck.
 
-Danny

Danny

I think you have a book in you!! 


There is a lot of wisdom in what you just wrote here....

Great stuff Danny!

Band_,

Awesome excellent thread, IMHO.  Poetic justice can be cruel, so can loss of life and music.  Just recall Band_, all of us have hit others below the belt at times.

DISCLAIMER: These are merely my opinions.  As someone who is "pretty good" (7/10 methinks), I'm like you.  I'm your peer, your collegue, and your faithful friend hobbyist (I hope).

I count it an honor to be labeled a hobbyist, as I eschew commercial hireling stuff.

I'd like to rise to 9/10 and 10/10.  And like you stated: "Time" certainly helps. 

I am confident that the hobbyist alone will win the day, not the commercial hireling, not the rock-star, not the pretender.  The commercial songs of today are flops on many levels, 7/10 at best.  They are no better than you and I, hahahahah!

I love you and Ben as much as I do Danny and Yoyo, perhaps more so.  Only the faithful fighter will win the battle and you 2 are REAL fighters. 

No one has the answers, my friend(s); only God or Satan does (IMHO).  Collab-ing with top-drawer folks has a place, but there comes a time to refrain from embracing others and placing trust in flesh.

Furthermore, I can't trust myself let alone anyone else.  Your talent is metaphysical (AKA, not from this world) ... a gift you are born with.  Who is gonna place the tender-loving-care in your mixes?  Yoyo?  Danny?  They have day/night jobs that necessarily consume them ... like you and I.

Your/my freedom of expression is a pioneering thing now in the home-DAW age ... where only you/I go at it alone to produce a new breed of stuff.

Your last mix showed excellent and faithful fighting to make beauty.  You chose the CS&N psychedelia freaks as your model.  I'm pretty certain no one envied you nor bought CS&N albums in the last decade.  But you learned a lot about real-Robby vocal textures ... more than anyone embarrassed that still listens to these perverse hippies.

It was over-kill, like so many of my mixes.

In sum:

Better to have over-killed than to not fight the battle with others.  Be a compulsive mixer and you will outshine us all ... no utterance is without signification.  Polish and strengthen the mixes you love and re-post them.  God gave you the success in the past, He'll bring it back I hope.

Perhaps you, me, Danny, Ben, Yoyo, may actually hope to mix/produce an eternal weight of glory ... methinks that requires great TLC, inspiration, labor of love, and a lot of joy from above.

This is an awesome topic, and as much as I love everything Danny mentioned, there is one problem:  for those Hobbiest among us, often the only voices and opinions we DO have are those on the forum!  If it were not for the advice, both good and bad, I have read over the years and applied only to realize it sucks, I would literally have learned nothing.

We can't ignore the voices on this forum.  In my case, I have no friends who are into recording.  I have no contacts.  I have me, and I have this forum, and have the internet, and I have my hobby.   As much as I would love to know when to listen, and to whom I should listen, I don't.  So I listen to everyone, try everything, and then through a very imperfect and aggravating system of trial and error, improve at a snail's pace.  But it is improvement.

The good news is that eventually I will achieve my perfect mix.  The bad news is by the time I do, I may be too hobbled by age and alcoholism to view the piano roll.

Such is the life of a hobbiest.  

I'm going to break Danny's (generally sound) rule about not just posting links and say that this thread is the best thing I have read on the internet about recording and mixing, and is worth more than all the other text on the internet about recording and mixing combined: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283

You only need to read the posts by the thread starter "Yep", who is a former member of this place.

John T


I'm going to break Danny's (generally sound) rule about not just posting links and say that this thread is the best thing I have read on the internet about recording and mixing, and is worth more than all the other text on the internet about recording and mixing combined: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283

Great posts there. Right at the beginning he reinforces my reasoning as to why I don't get too wrapped up in my mixing. I have cheap, terrible sounding speakers. I'm disabled and on a very tight budget and so it will be some time until I can upgrade those. Until then I figure nothing I can get to sound good to me is ever going to sound good to anyone else. It takes a lot of pressure off, actually. 


I love my songs. I really do. I love them more than anyone else ever could. They all have stories to tell that mean something special to me. They aren't product. I wrote them because I needed to. But, while I have a lot of fun, and untold hours of frustration, arranging and recording them I realize that until I get a good monitoring system the only place where they will sound right is in my head.


So for those getting into this kind of recording I suggest taking Yep's thoughts on getting a good monitoring system seriously. Don't let your music sound like a$$ like mine does.

To clarify why I posted that; the OP asks about how much time is involved in getting good at mixing. And the honest answer is "a lot". However, you could spend a lot of time really ineffectively and still not be any good. As Danny says, the quality of advice on the internet is 1/ variable and 2/ clustered around the low end of the spectrum. That thread is literally the best free mixing education resource on the internet I have ever encountered, and should save any sensible person a *lot* of time.

Bandontherun - very good topic and thread discussion.  Being a one man show, performer, engineer, mixer, mastererer is a formidable endeavor without doubt.   You are aspiring to something that can be learned (mixing) but you already possess something that cannot (talent).   Your mixes are not bad at all as Danny pointed out, a little tweaking here and there and you are golden.  Your performances, on the other hand, are really top notch and that is something that is given to you, not learned.  Sure, you can fine-tune your skills, but without the underlying talent you are just spinning your wheels.  If I were coached by the world's greatest vocal coach, I would still be a horrible singer because I do not possess any vocal talent to build from.  
 
Looking at Performance vs Engineering/Recording, vs Mix and Mastering.   Take for example, the recent post of Queen's "Making of Bohemian Rhapsody" in the Techniques Forum.  Clearly the 4 guys in Queen had tremendous talent, Freddie inparticular.    If you have the 24-track multi-track, available on the Internet,  listen to the individual instruments, they are not great recordings.   The performances are good, but certain aspects of the recordings are pretty bad when they stand alone.  It is the full rendering of the individual performaces into the full song that makes it shine.  The piano sounds like a cheap upright piano when solo'd, the guitar is out of tune and sounds pretty bad solo'd, drums are Ok but Superior Drummer samples are much better, only the Bass and Vocals (particularly Freddy) sound exceptional when solo'd.     Bohemian Rhapsody is a good example that if you have good/great performances, you can create something really exceptional even with mediocre recordings.  In the case of Bohemian Rhapsody, the mix engineer is able to combine these mediocre tracks (except for vocals and bass- they are pretty outstanding solo'd)  into something that has become a masterpiece to some, that has stood the test of time even by todays' technology standards.   I have heard that song a million times since 1975 and I would never have guessed that the piano sounded like my grandmother's 1930's upright piano (slightly out of tune) and the guitar tracks were out of tune in places and sounded like one of my early guitar lessons;)  You just don't hear it in the full recording.  The piano sounds like a Steinway and the guitars sound amazing.  By the standards of the day in 1974/1975, the recordings were well done but anyone with a decent computer, sound card, plug-ins, etc... can acheive the same or better standards at home today.
 
So my point is,  anyone is capable of producing high quality recordings if they have 1) talent, and or, talented collaborators  2) a way to capture the talent and 3) an understand the basics of mixing.   You my friend, already have all these elements, and I would say the most valuable of the elements, talent.  
 
Honestly the best way to learn mixing is to work with someone who is good at it.   I have read a ton of books, trial and errored for years, but learned a lot that I "get" and can "apply" from a recent video that Danny did for me.  Studying some of the multi-tracks availalble on the Internet are also a good way to see and hear how others do it.  I think Radiohead freely distribute their multi-tracks at least to some of their songs.  
 
 
Danny - really nice post.  
 
 
Regards

Good info from Danny. 

I agree 100% on the armchair quarterback issue. Don't listen to people who talk a good game and know the buzz words but never post any work from their studio that proves they know how to apply it.  To me it's a case of put up or shut up when it come to advice. I use this as a measure of whose advice I listen to and whose advice I totally discount.

I was going to suggest the same thing DD did. You obviously know whose mixes you admire, so PM them and see which of them will share their mixing secrets and working paths and methods with you. Perhaps even working with you on a mix.

I also agree that if...when I start on a mix... in the final mixdown stages... all the tracking is done.... time to get it ready to export.... if I spend more than a day on it, I actually begin to over think it and ruin it.  When this begins to occur, I shut off or remove all the plugs and re-evaluate everything in it starting at square one.  Do I have the enveloping right? Now... add plugs one by one as needed. Rebuild the project FX and don't over do it this time. Stop when it sounds great. 

Usually, by doing the "back to square one" I can get the mix ready in an hour or two. The temptation to tweek the mix, with a little more of this cause it sounded good the first time around, and a little of that, and yeah lets throw this plug on the master to widen the whole thing like a football field at the 50 yard line..... is a hard temptation to over come. BUT.... like Clint Eastwood says..... "A man's got to know his limitations" and when to stop mixing and call it done is part of that "knowing". It will never be perfect. I'll bet Bob Katz even has those "Doh" moments every now and then after hearing a mix on the radio.... then again... maybe not.  

My mixing process is simple: Use only what is absolutely needed and error on the side of not enough. 

Most of my tracks are dry (except guitars) and I add verb in the busses for multiple vocal tracks. It would probably surprise a bunch of people here if they could look over my shoulder as I record and mix.... with what I do and do not have in the FX bins. There are of course exceptions, but many of the projects I do have very few FX in them....and I tend to use the same ones every time. 


I think too, that while this is a topic on mixing.... you can not get a good mix no matter what you do, if the tracks are not properly recorded. The tracks are the foundation of the mix. If the tracks are weak or eq'd wrong and printed.... you will pull your hair out trying to "fix it in the mix". 

Working on the final mix starts with the first track that gets recorded. Remember that, and work toward that goal and your mixing will be pretty much effortless and a breeze. 

I hope this was useful. 

sven450


This is an awesome topic, and as much as I love everything Danny mentioned, there is one problem:  for those Hobbiest among us, often the only voices and opinions we DO have are those on the forum!  If it were not for the advice, both good and bad, I have read over the years and applied only to realize it sucks, I would literally have learned nothing.

We can't ignore the voices on this forum.  In my case, I have no friends who are into recording.  I have no contacts.  I have me, and I have this forum, and have the internet, and I have my hobby.   As much as I would love to know when to listen, and to whom I should listen, I don't.  So I listen to everyone, try everything, and then through a very imperfect and aggravating system of trial and error, improve at a snail's pace.  But it is improvement.

The good news is that eventually I will achieve my perfect mix.  The bad news is by the time I do, I may be too hobbled by age and alcoholism to view the piano roll.

Such is the life of a hobbiest.  

Sven, you may have misunderstood me. If so, please allow me to clarify. :) First off, not everyone on here is a pro nor should they be forced to think or act like a pro. Secondly, I wasn't trying to discredit hobbyists. I'm merely saying "be careful who you listen to". However, if you want pro recording/pro mixes, you have to try to do what the pro guys (or at least the people you admire here on the forum) are doing. That's all man. :)
 
John T: That's a link worth its weight in gold. I always liked that Yep guy. Total class act. Just to clarify again...my "link" thing was pretty much for those that drop links and go. They don't explain anything, they don't try to help anyone out, they drop this stuff on people that are really lost to where it looks like a foreign schematic to them. It's like "here, read this and take what you want from it" when in most cases, I can't even understand half the stuff being discussed in it. How on earth will someone that's new at this understand it?
 
That's the type of link posting I'm talking about. Sure, people will read as much or as little as they want, but when I was learning this stuff, I was happy as a pig in mud when someone would just give me a true answer that was helpful other than "Well you just have to keep practicing and stick with it". Yeah...thanks, that really helps a lot. LOL! Put up with that for long enough, and then you can understand why I post novels all the time. :) I hated being that dude that was always asking questions and never receiving answers. :)
 
-Danny

+1 Danny

Your right on target!

Clifford

Thanks you John T. for that link. And even though I don't have the experience yet, it's good to confirm that I've been reading the right material and drawing the right conclusions about the theory. After a couple of years of dabbling in some confusion and at times quite blindly I might add, it's all starting to make sense and feels like I am moving forward. Heck, I don't have to lookup technical terms as much anymore, as I do know what most of them imply/mean. 


@ Danny

What was I saying about you just a little while back? Oh ya..., always enjoyed reading you. There's always something you bring up that makes me think about things a little more closely. But by the truckload? Jeez man, you're killing me! 

Like I said...Danny has a BOOK in there!!!

Danny, Post 3 was freaking epic bro.... nicely put and on the money (so to speak).   For those struggling I would urge you to abide by the info in Danny post.  Improvements in your ability and understanding can be slow and agonizing unless you are "taught" by someone who knows what they are talking about and is the real McCoy even if that knowledge cost you a few bucks I feel it's worthwhile.  I mean how much is 2,3 or 5-10 years of your time doing the trial & error thing worth to you if someone could show you today how to make your mixes clear, clean, and distinct?    I don't get much "free" time so it's valuable to me.

+ 1 to Danny as well.  That is just about the funniest rant that I have read on these forums.  Why, because it is 100% true!!  

My first year at a couple of different forum sites was exactly as described, I listened to everything, everyone had to say, thinking they were experts on the subject.  One guy would tell me it was too much bass, so I would turn it down.  The next guy would come along and say the bass was too low, so I would turn it back up.  Round and round I went.  The straw that broke the camels back for me was when one guy told me that there was no low end in the recording and when I questioned him further, it was not coming across on his laptop speakers, therefore my mix was wrong.  


It took a while, but I learned who's opinions to trust and also learned to trust myself.  I don't knee jerk reaction to any opinion these days. Instead, I often go to the site of the adviser and check out their music and mixes.  As Danny said above, if their work is good, their opinions probably are more weighted.

When Danny writes a book, I'll buy it.  That's one more sale in the bank.  Now that's time well spent.

Danny Danzi said .....
 
Stop listening to people on this forum that talk a good game that don't post songs with the quality that you want yourself.

 
That is one of the best lines I have read in the past year on these forums. Well said Danny!

Yeah I spent a solid week on my 6th and final remix... Listened critically to each part of each track on the project I've been mixing, as a result I had to completely redo/rebounce the drums, rebounced the organs, changed verb, changed panning, widened the BGV and changed settings on pretty much everything. Added and changed envelopes, etc. I feel like it improved, and I'm glad I put the time in. Now it's time to step back and smell the roses, enjoy some other folks stuff, do some reading and then start a new one.

I know there are people here who can crank out a pretty good mix in a few hours. I guess it's just years of practice and experience as well as a particular talent for it. 
Still saving my pennies for that Transiant Designer...

Here's the problem with Danny's approach. He doesn't live on the West Coast so I can hang out with him.

Words of wisdom there my friend. I can't tell you how many times I have heard diatribes from an "expert" on the internet here and over at GS, then listen to their tracks and realize they haven't got a clue.

I would add some free advice for the OP. Go to Youtube and type in "Pensado's Place". If you have the time listen to all 60+ episodes which are a master class in mixing. If you don't have the time, as they are 1 hour each, go to his site and just review the ITL (Into the Lair) outtakes from the videos. Those are the best sources of mixing information anywhere and they are free. Clearing the middle of the mix is one of his classics.

Know that, mixing is what you do with the tracks in front of you. If you don't have good tracks, you can end up chasing your tail. I would charge you with learning how to capture the source well. If it sounds good after tracking, the mixing process becomes an artistic endeavor versus a mercy mission. Many times a new learner will be challenged with poorly recorded tracks (wrong space, wrong mic, unfocused performance) and then move to mixing while learning all the tools. The chances of success or satisfaction will be very low and your frustration high. Teaching your ear to understand when you have a good sounding track vs an amateur sounding track is important.
 
As makeshift points out. Half the opinions you will get from people on the internet are guys listening on their laptop or earbuds. Mix opinions can be all over the map based on this alone.

Philip


Band_,

Awesome excellent thread, IMHO.  Poetic justice can be cruel, so can loss of life and music.  Just recall Band_, all of us have hit others below the belt at times.

DISCLAIMER: These are merely my opinions.  As someone who is "pretty good" (7/10 methinks), I'm like you.  I'm your peer, your collegue, and your faithful friend hobbyist (I hope).

I count it an honor to be labeled a hobbyist, as I eschew commercial hireling stuff.

I'd like to rise to 9/10 and 10/10.  And like you stated: "Time" certainly helps. 

I am confident that the hobbyist alone will win the day, not the commercial hireling, not the rock-star, not the pretender.  The commercial songs of today are flops on many levels, 7/10 at best.  They are no better than you and I, hahahahah!

I love you and Ben as much as I do Danny and Yoyo, perhaps more so.  Only the faithful fighter will win the battle and you 2 are REAL fighters. 

No one has the answers, my friend(s); only God or Satan does (IMHO).  Collab-ing with top-drawer folks has a place, but there comes a time to refrain from embracing others and placing trust in flesh.

Furthermore, I can't trust myself let alone anyone else.  Your talent is metaphysical (AKA, not from this world) ... a gift you are born with.  Who is gonna place the tender-loving-care in your mixes?  Yoyo?  Danny?  They have day/night jobs that necessarily consume them ... like you and I.

Your/my freedom of expression is a pioneering thing now in the home-DAW age ... where only you/I go at it alone to produce a new breed of stuff.

Your last mix showed excellent and faithful fighting to make beauty.  You chose the CS&N psychedelia freaks as your model.  I'm pretty certain no one envied you nor bought CS&N albums in the last decade.  But you learned a lot about real-Robby vocal textures ... more than anyone embarrassed that still listens to these perverse hippies.

It was over-kill, like so many of my mixes.

In sum:

Better to have over-killed than to not fight the battle with others.  Be a compulsive mixer and you will outshine us all ... no utterance is without signification.  Polish and strengthen the mixes you love and re-post them.  God gave you the success in the past, He'll bring it back I hope.

Perhaps you, me, Danny, Ben, Yoyo, may actually hope to mix/produce an eternal weight of glory ... methinks that requires great TLC, inspiration, labor of love, and a lot of joy from above.

Thanks Philip, I think you are right on the money with the last comment.  Hey I know I've posted some **** but I keep on saying it's my journey (some of that stuff is 5 years old I was a babe in the wood 5 years ago) and I don't want perfect music and perfect recordings.
 
You yourself Danny only said the other day on another thread when you started to pull apart Bohemian Rhapsody, how awful parts of the individual components sounded.
 
Look I post what ever I like and if I am wrong and you can prove me wrong then I am happy to admit I am wrong, you make me out to be unreasonable when I am not.
 
Ok time to put up or shutup again, I think I am ready to go back to work, I have just done a reset of my system (this is something that Danny hasn't taken into account, I spend so much time tinkering with my system that I often forget to take more care with the music) I'vegot a couple of old tunes to fix and I need to start some new stuff just to show you exactly where I am at and that my ideas do translate.
 
I mean Danny is implying that I live in a bubble or a cocoon and that I don't progress:  Poppycock, Fairy Dust and Pickle Water.
 
I will show You!!!
 
Neb 
 
P.S Danny I am a loyal customer of Cakewalk, I have been now for 10 years.  So it makes me a middle user, some have been using this software for 20 years but I am still a middle user.
 
I brought Sonar 2.2 which cost me $400 in 2002, I then upgraded to V6, cost me another $300, then 8.5, another $300.  I brought Project 5, cost me another $700, then the upgrade another $300.  I brought the first version of Pyro and the 2nd.  I am now an X1 user and have brought Expanded and PCK gate.
 
This gives me the right to inhabit these boards, I have also fought those in the idustry with their Pro Tools crap and tried to get people to look at this great program, I have said I was wrong about X1 in the past and I was.  So you continue with your pithy attack, I'm still here and I am doing nothing wrong, well I did go a little too far but, I stand by my opinion but accept responsibility for the delivery!! 

Great genuine wisdom Danny, please don't stop posting here because some of the members are more interested in playing virtual king of the hill and spend most of their spare time on here quibbling over semantics when they should be in the wood shed practicing their skills.
 I share the same concerns regarding new members leaving here with the wrong message but I think the great majority of us hobbyist know when they're getting the genuine article when hearing from the top producers like you.
 The forums are not the same when you're not here. Your wisdom and generous nature will always be loved here brother. 

 Thanks for the link JohnT, I have some of his old posts saved as a text file
It's good  to see you here more often, I've heard a mix you did with a female singer that was splendid if I'm not mistaken. To my ears it sounded like a pro did it. Just wanted to let you know there are folks interested here in what the real pros have to say so if you ever want to share, I'm all eyes

 Robby, I always thought of your mixes as much more than a hobbiest. Some of your arrangements have many timbres and layers, different instruments and such. I think in a way you give yourself a much tougher job to do to get that perfect mix. I think if you put a bit of time in between when you record and when you mix, like a week or so to give yourself a chance to defrag you may nail that home run mix easier with a fresh perspective. JMO. Im any case the performance and capture are always spot on to my ears. 
 I look forward to catching up with what I missed from you.

Very interesting point here made about the quality of the tracks that are used for mixing. Funny thing is, this is two very typical scenarios:

1 - Amateur mixing engineer is given or records low quality tracks at which to work with. Thus it's hard to create a great sounding mix. All the time is spent trying to fix the problems with recording and no room is then given for any artistic enhancements. They are fighting an uphill battle. They read information on mixing from the pros. It doesn't work. Nothing works.

2 - Professional is given or records high/higher quality mixes with which to work with. Mixing is a breeze. It sounds great automatically. Then they are free to use their already superior skills on a superior track to make it sound amazing. They then publish their techniques to mixing an amazing track. The amateur reads these techniques and wonders why it doesn't sound as good as the pro mix.


Thus the degree of separation between pro an amateur is increased. Give both guys the SAME mix, and you may find that the hobby guy is better than you realised and the pro is not as good as you first thought.


Obviously the true pro (a true pro) can still do amazing things with sub-quality recordings, but you get my point.


This just reiterates the importance of getting good tracks in the recording!


Don't even get started on the importance of adequate composition to making a mix sound good.. Bad composition and choice of instruments can make life exceedingly difficult and hard to mix. It can easily make or break the perception of a great mix.

mattplaysguitar


Very interesting point here made about the quality of the tracks that are used for mixing. Funny thing is, this is two very typical scenarios:

1 - Amateur mixing engineer is given or records low quality tracks at which to work with. Thus it's hard to create a great sounding mix. All the time is spent trying to fix the problems with recording and no room is then given for any artistic enhancements. They are fighting an uphill battle. They read information on mixing from the pros. It doesn't work. Nothing works.

2 - Professional is given or records high/higher quality mixes with which to work with. Mixing is a breeze. It sounds great automatically. Then they are free to use their already superior skills on a superior track to make it sound amazing. They then publish their techniques to mixing an amazing track. The amateur reads these techniques and wonders why it doesn't sound as good as the pro mix.


Thus the degree of separation between pro an amateur is increased. Give both guys the SAME mix, and you may find that the hobby guy is better than you realised and the pro is not as good as you first thought.


Obviously the true pro (a true pro) can still do amazing things with sub-quality recordings, but you get my point.


This just reiterates the importance of getting good tracks in the recording!


Don't even get started on the importance of adequate composition to making a mix sound good.. Bad composition and choice of instruments can make life exceedingly difficult and hard to mix. It can easily make or break the perception of a great mix.

+1
 
Also, consider, the Op himself has done mostly covers these last couple years.  That kind of emulation is extremely difficult and tricky.  Few persons here can exceed another master's masterpiece.
 
Its hard to talk about mixing covers, which the Op has struggled with.
 
IMHO, the Ops greatest cover success occurred when he sang and mixed "He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother".  In fact, I felt it was mixed and sung at least as well as the original !!!!!!
 
I seriously hope the Op would finally cover one of my (Philip's) songs and/or mix it.

I'm glad the majority of you liked where I was coming from here...thanks for the kind words and the props. :)

bandontherun: You're still kinda missing my point man. You don't have to be talented or have years of practice or experience. You need to know what it is you're listening to and what you're listening for. Let me try to break it down for you one more time while trying to keep it short. Maybe you didn't read my long post because it looked too long and you didn't have the time nor the desire to read it. By your last comments, I'd assume you may have skimmed over or skipped my post. I put a lot into that for you...I'll not make the same mistake again.

So I have a student that does a decent job with mixing but he's still not getting the results he should be getting. He's not a super talented muso, he's not a wizard on guitar drums or vocals. He's just a normal guy that writes tunes and wants them to sound good.

My job as his teacher is to explain what it is he is hearing as well as what is wrong with his mix and how he can fix it. He just doesn't know what to listen for. He doesn't know what a good compressor setting sounds lilke because he can't tell the difference. He doesn't know what good bass and bad bass is because he's never been taught or shown what good vs. bad is. He doesn't know about compression other than when it pumps and breathes in a mix telling him "ok that may be too much there".

He doesn't know about how frequency masking can contribute to the source of your low end problem with everything building up as a combination making that bass sound like it may be coming from one instrument. He doesn't know how far to high pass a guitar. He doesn't know that a bass guitar has way less low end in it than you may think. He doesn't know that you shouldn't boost your kick drum low end in the same area you would your bass guitar. He doesn't know that a simple low pass on a guitar may just fix it instead of sitting there messing with all the high end frequencies individually. He doesn't know the high end in the vocal he's using is creating vocal sibilance because he doesn't know what vocal sibilance is.

For him to improve his mixes, it has nothing to do with talent. It has to do with "ok, this is the sound of bad bass. When you hear this type of low end fuuuuuu type sound like a jet plane engine idling close to your ears in the back of your instruments, you sweep your freqs until you find it, then you remove that blanket. It's not talent...it's being taught what to listen for. As you learn how and what to listen for and learn about how frequencies are literally syllables/alphabet type things inside your musical language, it allc omes natural.

With mixing, you are learning a language. Each spoken instrument has a place...has a voice and must be carved up to it sits in the mix. If you aren't taught how to handle this stuff, you're not going to just get it on your own. You can read all the books in the world and watch all the videos in creation. You're not going to learn a thing until someone shows you what to listen for on YOUR material.

What good is it for me to show examples of high end recordings using high end gear as my test subjects? Right...it does no good at all which is why the majority of these books from pros are bogus. You don't have a big pricey front end...you don't have the plugs they use and most importantly, they are NOT showing you how to handle the instrumentation voices YOU have created using the stuff you used to created the sound. You can be taught how to decipher all this stuff. It has nothing to do with your skill level or how long or short you've been doing this.

I can't put it any other way. It's cut and dry. You learn how to decipher this stuff and learn the language of music or you keep at it and hope you get better. Do it your way for a year. If you find you're no further than you were after a year, send me a pm and we'll talk.

Best of luck,

-Danny

I think that's really pertinent. There's a lot you could read about this subject that suggests you're waiting for a magical moment when it all clicks and you're a mix wizard all of a sudden. And somehow you'll get there by twisting knobs and "using your ears" (lamest non-advice ever, of course you're using your ears).

The reality is more mundane. Like any craft, there's a whole bunch of stuff to learn, and you can just start picking these things off one by one, just as Danny describes above.

As to Danny's point about a lot of big name tutorial stuff not being pertinent, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go further and say that the majority of what you can find on the web and in books about mixing is not going to be all that relevant to you. Listening to a couple of your mixes, you're already pretty good. So that cuts out the 70% or so of this stuff that's re-iterating beginner-level issues, as well as the high end stuff Danny refers to.

A much, much better source than most of that is Mike Senior's regular Mix Rescue column in Sound On Sound, which is deliberately always done using reader-submitted tracks on off-the-shelf hardware and software. Most of the time he restricts himself to bundled plug ins too. So that's a guy with a very credible CV as a mix engineer, working with the kind of tools and materials that guys like us have. Such an obvious idea, it's kind of amazing that you don't see it elsewhere.

Mix Rescues are online for free three months after they're in print, and they have before and after audio examples, and sometimes individual tracks and snippets showing different approaches and methods that have been tried along the way.

+1

And his book - 'Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio' is very readable, very accessible and full of practical, everyday examples that anyone can learn from. (Hell, if I can learn from it, anyone can)

Ben/Neb/whoever you are in your demented mind today: I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't use your name one time in this thread. You have SHOWN me and everyone else...that you once again are a self-serving me me me, I I I individual that has no business in this thread...and you have done nothing to help or answer the OP's question other than to jump in and start with me. Again, if the shoe fits...smack yourself in the head with it a few times.

Let me put it in black and white to you since I have nothing to lose but my composure. Don't challenge me, quote me, don't prove anything to me and don't talk to me. We have nothing to discuss and you have burned every bridge you can think of when it comes to me. When I write someone off, they are written off for good. I don't give them the chance to bite me again. So though we have nothing to talk about, I'll leave you with this.

Some people really want to learn and need help. If you can't give them the help they need that really works that has merit in a language they can understand and you can't lead by example, how about bowing out until you can?

That said, if you weren't so stuck on yourself, self centered, ego, submersed in Ben, loving and caring for only Ben, bragging and all that goes with your antics and inability to communicate properly with others that share your passion, I'd actually welcome you with open arms and wouldn't take the stand I take towards you. But you need to be the center of attention, you are misleading, you bring forth more drama to these boards than anyone that has ever been here and other than a sense of entertainment for those who are laughing at you that are having a hard time believing a human being could be as dilusional as you, you serve no purpose here really.

I'm a loving person believe it or not in spite of the harshness in this post and would give anyone the shirt off my back. Those that know me personally on here and in life that have treated me like a human being should be treated, can all vouch for this. However, there are breeds of people that I have no time for because of their lack of respect and lack of consideration for mankind. You Sir, (and I use that term loosely) are one of those breeds.

There comes a time when you have no choice but to turn your back on a bad seed or that bad seed brings animosity into your own life that is not needed. Sorry, that's how I feel. I have no time for people like you. I remember a post I made to you months ago that was honest, sincere and also compassionate as I left my door open a crack at the end of it. What did you do? You threw up all over me and made it into a fight. So, I wash my hands of you for good. The dog that bites me gets put to sleep unless it proves itself worthy of a person like me. That's not ego, it's principal and how things work in my world.

As for how many Cake products you own, that means nothing to me. I've had Cake since version 3.0 on floppy disks and have been a part of this community since it came in newsgroup only format and was delivered to your email program. That means what? Right...it means nothing other than I have been here a lot longer than you. I'd also be willing to bet that I haven't improved much on my use of the product, but I make it work for me and many others. 

If I was a jack-a-lope and was constantly misleading people or sharing information that could be really messing people up, it matters not how long I've been here, how many Cake products I own or if I created/owned the Cakewalk company. Wrong is wrong...and you are wrong more times than you are right. People just don't feel like getting into an argument with you or trust me, the majority of this forum would rise up and attack you. You're not even entertainment anymore. Your posts are just sad...every one of them.

This place is not an entertainment stage to me like it is for you. It's more a lecture hall for me as a speaker, helper, teacher that takes this stuff VERY seriously. But I have NEVER tried to make it a stage to where I am the center of attention at the expense of someone else crying out for help in a thread. You have a way of sharing useless information in posts in attempt to make yourself sound/look knowledgable yet take the liberty to attack guys like me that HAVE made a difference for the better for people. You could have even acted like you liked me and respected me a bit better and I would have fallen for it and still been a helpful guy. But I digress..your loss.

And remember, just because you admit to your downfalls doesn't mean anyone has to accept you. You don't put a time line on when people forgive or accept you...that's for us to decide, not you.

I'd rather help people and make a difference over using this space to justify myself to you or anyone else. How about leaving me out of your rants so I can do that and not waste time defending myself?

-Danny

Middleman
Here's the problem with Danny's approach. He doesn't live on the West Coast so I can hang out with him.

Words of wisdom there my friend. I can't tell you how many times I have heard diatribes from an "expert" on the internet here and over at GS, then listen to their tracks and realize they haven't got a clue.

That can be arranged ya know! :) I'm actually going to be out there either this summer or by the fall. If I end up anywhere near you, maybe we can hang for a day or so. I'd sure love it brother. :)

Grant: no worries man...I may not be as active, but when I see something that I feel could use a little TLC, I won't hesitate to share. :)

John T: Well said on all counts man. I know there are a few things out there that can definitely help, but in my experience, the starting points we can use have never been anything that made me go "wow that sure made a difference!"

I may have shared this story before, but if not, it's definitely a good read for you. I remember mixing my brains out working on songs for weeks, months...it was really a downer. So much so, I didn't want to do this stuff anymore and was pretty much going to just use my studio as my little pre-pro man cave. How could I charge people if I myself wasn't happy with my own stuff? I mean don't get me wrong, I was fair at doing this, but nothing that I would even consider "pro demo quality" which is where I feel my quality is today. I have my moment so of "damn that sounds as good or better than so and so!" but I've accepted that with the gear I have, I'm a pro demo studio that can sometimes give the majors a run for their money. I'm fine with that really.

But as I was doing this and trying my best to learn, my monitors were the biggest part of my problem. I know you've heard me rant about ARC etc, so I won't go there, but part of me knowing what to listen for was having the ability to HEAR that stuff. And, ARC of course made a huge difference in that area.

So I started recording my own album and though it turned out decent, there were things that just weren't there when you compared it to something that was pro done. The bassist in my band at the time was a big time engineer who wound up working with Breaking Benjamin on their first album. He sat me down with my mixes and mixed them in his studio. As he did this, he said stuff like:

"this is what is wrong with this, this is what is wrong with that...this sound shouldn't have even been recorded because of this, on this instrument, we need the compressor to kick a little earlier and the comp you used isn't the right one..listen what happens when we use this one instead. Ok, now you have this blanket of mids on your guitars. I know you like this sound, but listen to what happens when we remove this 640hz...the sound will open up and not sound as congested. Now, you also have some low end issues on this guitar. Listen to what happens when we remove this blanket of ussssssssss in the back ground. There...here's with it in, here's with it out...can you hear what it's doing and how this low end is making a mess of your guitars? Ok, the kick drum...your pushing this frequency and you're pushing the same freq on the bass...you can't do that just because 60 hz gives you the right low end you feel these instruments need. This is why you keep on raising your faders...these instruments are masking bro."

In that little paragraph right there John, it totally changed my life. I had no idea to listen for this low end stuff behind my guitars. Heck, I loved my guitar tone back then and always got major compliments. When he soloed it up, it sounded thin...lifeless, no bass push. He said "right, that's because you're not supposed to be pushing that kind of low end in a guitar. You're walking into kick drum/bass guitar territory and this is why your rhythm guitars aren't heard as much in your mixes."

Stuff like that is an eye opener. However, if he wouldn't have shown me this stuff right there in front of him, I don't know if I would have ever learned about it watching someone else do another mix or read a book. It would never deal with MY problems and issues, know what I mean? I'm always going to create sounds and mixes that work with my instruments. If my instruments I love...which sound great on their own don't work in a mix, I'm NEVER going to get this stuff right unless someone shows me how to deal with my instruments. This is why I do the video lessons I do. It allows people to see just what is wrong with their instruments using the right techniques to control them.

This is why I feel it's soo important to know what and how to listen for something. It starts with learning on YOUR stuff, not someone elses as a test subject, ya know what I mean? I knew what compression was and how to use it, but I never thought at that time, that a different compressor is going to make that much of a difference on a particular instrument. I didn't know about sculpting eq to make a mix work. I soloed everything up individually and made it sound good as an entity. Little did I know, just by doing that, I was totally missing the boat.

Now that I'm more experienced at this, I can of course solo something up and make it work because of knowing what to listen for. But I still try to stay away from that unless I'm honing in on a problem area. The mix itself needs to be treated as an entity....you can't mix all the instruments to sound good on their own. Quite a few people don't realize this and I was one of them.

I can also remember working with my bassist later on after this mixing session I spoke about. I brought hiim a mix that took me 2 weeks to do. He listened to 5 seconds of it and shut it off. He says "ok, here's a pen and paper, write down all the stuff you hear wrong with this mix."

I was pretty upset because I was so excited that I did a good job. I did a horrible job. I wrote down all the stuff I heard wrong and gave him the paper. He reads it and says "if you can hear all this stuff, why did you leave it like this?" The answer...I was mixing through un-corrected NS-10's, no sub, and switching betwen them and headphones. This is where new monitors, a sub and ARC come in...so I'll spare you there. But, in order for me to hear the things I heard at his place, I needed to fix my place.

Once I did all that, I realized I really wasn't the crappy engineer I thought I was. I was decent at this stuff all along...but I was failing because:

1. I didn't know what to listen for in my own instruments

2. My room/monitors were not giving me the proper representation I needed to make the right calls.

So when you look at things this way, it's easy to see how this stuff can make a huge difference as well as an impact on how you end up. :) I don't think any video or book would have helped me at that time. :)

-Danny

This quote really jumps out at me: "I know you like this sound, but listen to what happens when we remove this 640hz...the sound will open up and not sound as congested". That really reminds me of one of the best bit's of Yep's thread I posted the link to.

He talks a lot about "forget what you think it should sound like, and listen to what it actually sounds like". What he means is that you may think you want a really bassy kick drum, or super-bright hi-hats or whatever, and you may be mixing according to such pre-concieved notions. But in actual fact, the record you like that you think has these things, doesn't actually have them at all.

This is why the answer to "How do the pros get everything really loud and slamming at once, with eveything really heavy in the bass and bright at the top end?" is "they don't, listen again".

Touching on the value of videos or in person tuition over books, yes I agree. I started out doing a three month course in a real studio, taught by a working engineer, back in the mid 90s. I still sucked after it, of course, you don't become an expert at anything in 3 months. But the amount of foundational stuff I learned in that three months saved me years, I reckon.

Danny Danzi


...... I'd rather help people and make a difference over using this space to justify myself to you or anyone else. How about leaving me out of your rants so I can do that and not waste time defending myself?

-Danny

I know this guy has got under your skin but you may as well be trying to communicate with an AI program that doesn't understand what you're saying but continues to recycle phrases that have been programmed into it. He's pushing all your buttons without even trying. You're a major asset to this forum and I hate to see you get wound up like that because it will affect how much of yourself you give here and probably give you ulcers. I defer to your skills and talents but I, too, have been online a long time and have seen these kinds of flame wars. You can't win by arguing. Logic won't help you, facts won't help you. Reason won't help you. All you can do is take a deep breath and let it go. Act, don't react. Ignore it when others make snotty remarks. Your reputation is safe. When all else fails, don't feed the trolls. Starve them and they will self destruct. I've seen it, you've seen it, most of us have seen it. Do you really care about what some jerk thinks about you? Be the bigger man.... let it go. You'll be glad you did.

Yeah, I think it's pretty much time to relegate Ben to the block list. That's what I'm going to do. He's got two modes: utterly insufferable a$$hole, and whiny poor-me complainer. I don't like either, and on top of that, the odds of him ever posting anything I would want or need to know are now confirmed at zero.

Starting in this thing I find all kinds of things out that I wish I knew all those years ago. I know that in London ON Fanshawe College has a RIA program but not much else ... 

I find that, sometimes, just communicating with you guys here, JohnT, Danny, FBB, that I am starting to understand a lot more of what I am doing in this so-called studio of mine

Well, thank you. I don't want to overstate my case; I am not Dave Pensado or anything. Far, far from it. I do try to avoid spouting off about things I don't understand, though, and only give advice that I'm very confident about.

Actually, that's a not-bad mindset for mixing. There should be a mixers Hippocratic oath, in fact: "first do no harm". It's a good exercise to approach a mix at first by seeing how *little* you can do. I tend to start with just high pass EQ (on EVERY track), basic level setting, and *some* compression *only* on tracks that absolutely require it. No more detailed EQ yet, no effects, no panning, no bus compression. That will never get you to a polished sound, of course, but it's amazing how far you *can* get. Far more bad mixing comes from over-cooking than under-cooking, IMO.

So in other words, when mixing, see how much you can achieve doing simple stuff that you fully understand. Don't dive in with all kinds of esoteric trickery you've read about on the internet.

 Awesome input, much appreciated here guys.

That is about it from here. I've done some things in here that made me go...wha??? Then to undo stuff until I found what it was that happened then I understood a bit more of what it was that I was doing. 

But to actually explain what it was that I done? It is like I have technical word aphasia of some sort

So in other words, when mixing, see how much you can achieve doing simple stuff that you fully understand. Don't dive in with all kinds of esoteric trickery you've read about on the internet.

this is great.  Less is more, master the small stuff before you proceed. 

Middleman


I would add some free advice for the OP. Go to Youtube and type in "Pensado's Place". If you have the time listen to all 60+ episodes which are a master class in mixing. If you don't have the time, as they are 1 hour each, go to his site and just review the ITL (Into the Lair) outtakes from the videos. Those are the best sources of mixing information anywhere and they are free. Clearing the middle of the mix is one of his classics.

Know that, mixing is what you do with the tracks in front of you. If you don't have good tracks, you can end up chasing your tail. I would charge you with learning how to capture the source well. If it sounds good after tracking, the mixing process becomes an artistic endeavor versus a mercy mission. Many times a new learner will be challenged with poorly recorded tracks (wrong space, wrong mic, unfocused performance) and then move to mixing while learning all the tools. The chances of success or satisfaction will be very low and your frustration high. Teaching your ear to understand when you have a good sounding track vs an amateur sounding track is important.
 
As makeshift points out. Half the opinions you will get from people on the internet are guys listening on their laptop or earbuds. Mix opinions can be all over the map based on this alone.

I've visited a few web sites that have educational style videos like Pensado's Place. All sorts of music related topics are discussed in detail by experts in the field. 

Surely it is not an inconvenience to "set in" on a few of these master class sessions to learn something.... is it? 


You should not have to listen to all of them to get the information that will help take your mixes to the next level. Most of the seminar videos I have seen on the sites I inhabit (aside from here) are all very aptly named to make it easy to find the right topic I need. 

Chappel

Danny Danzi


...... I'd rather help people and make a difference over using this space to justify myself to you or anyone else. How about leaving me out of your rants so I can do that and not waste time defending myself?

-Danny

I know this guy has got under your skin but you may as well be trying to communicate with an AI program that doesn't understand what you're saying but continues to recycle phrases that have been programmed into it. He's pushing all your buttons without even trying. You're a major asset to this forum and I hate to see you get wound up like that because it will affect how much of yourself you give here and probably give you ulcers. I defer to your skills and talents but I, too, have been online a long time and have seen these kinds of flame wars. You can't win by arguing. Logic won't help you, facts won't help you. Reason won't help you. All you can do is take a deep breath and let it go. Act, don't react. Ignore it when others make snotty remarks. Your reputation is safe. When all else fails, don't feed the trolls. Starve them and they will self destruct. I've seen it, you've seen it, most of us have seen it. Do you really care about what some jerk thinks about you? Be the bigger man.... let it go. You'll be glad you did.

Totally respect your view on this and thank you for chiming in. To be honest Chappel, it's not that a person gets under my skin...it's more that they have the audacity to spout off stuff to begin with and if they did it in person to someone, you know there wouldn't be a very nice outcome. To put it another way, I'm the guy that lives in his own little world. I have tunnel vision. I see straight lines and walk on my own straight line. When someone crosses my line when I'm minding my own business, there's a problem and one that I can't just dismiss. We can blame it on my up-bringing, my surroundings or who and what I am, but that's just me unfortunately.
 
I used to be the guy that turned the other cheek. But, I'm not as strong as Jesus and am fooling myself to believe that I am. I tried it...I was so miserable I felt like a wuss. I'm not happy about that failure, but I'm me...flaws and all. :) Turning the other cheek made me hold things in that really bothered me to the point of taking them out on friends or family when they may have said the wrong things to me. One day I made up my mind that if someone rocks my boat, you go after the source. Is it worth it to me? Yeah, unfortunately it is. If the moderators are not going to contain or control people of this nature, I'm all for attacking back at whatever expense because it's wrong. People like this make guys like me and others that really are caring and loving individuals say "what's the use..screw this place." Then the good people lose.
 
See, to most people on forums, it's text on a screen that they can just turn off. For people like me, this is the only social life I have at this time of the day. LOL! So I take it a bit more serious than someone that just comes on here for leisure purposes or to read here and there. I'd not say anything in type that I wouldn't say to a man's face. And, other than when I have felt the need to justify or defend myself, I sincerely do not believe I have been out of line with anyone FIRST. I'm of the belief of "if you attack a man, you deal with the attack he sends back no matter how harsh or ruthless." These are the chances you take when you attack a person first. I'd be happy with never getting into another confrontation on here again. But I will not back down from anyone that chooses to try and insult me.
 
You say that "if you let it go it goes away". I could name 3 people on this forum that constantly abuse others that have not gone away nor have they been disciplined correctly. One has never even had a time out. If people chimed in when these people started their crap, I believe the mods would see the problem. Instead you may get 2-3 people barking at them and 10 pm's telling you "right on man, tell him...I can't stand that dude either, we're on your side!!" 
 
This is not fair to the community and no one should have to ignore these people or accept their abuse. They just shouldn't be here when it gets that extreme. There are real people behind the text. Some of them take these words seriously...others laugh at the entertainment they bring to the table. If you can't talk like a real person and extend courtesy like a real person, you shouldn't be allowed to post or be here. The day this all becomes "text on a screen" to me is the day I go haunt another forum. :) Again, I do thank you for your insight....but I'll probably never be one that can just "let things go". Maybe someday, but not today.
 
-Danny

I've gotten used to the idea that I will have to do the block thing as well...as much as I hate to...

@Danny....I still think you have a BOOK in you!!!

I’ve been going back through this thread and trying to work out what it was that got Ben so riled as he was in post #24 – and I’ve failed totally.
I honestly don’t know why he attacked you in the way he did Danny – you didn’t even mention him in any of your posts (you’re not the type of guy that does that anyway – all your posts are designed to educate, help others and shed a little light on some of the mysteries of mixing).
I’m beginning to suspect maybe some bipolar disorder, because he’s clearly reading things that nobody else can actually see, so on that basis, I feel a little pity for him.
 
The facts seem to fit the pattern – the self aggrandisement, the petulant shows of angst, the self-opinionated pseudo-facts that he writes.
All of this suggests a chemical imbalance of some sort.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe he’s just a grade A A-hole.

Guitarhacker

Middleman


I would add some free advice for the OP. Go to Youtube and type in "Pensado's Place". If you have the time listen to all 60+ episodes which are a master class in mixing. If you don't have the time, as they are 1 hour each, go to his site and just review the ITL (Into the Lair) outtakes from the videos. Those are the best sources of mixing information anywhere and they are free. Clearing the middle of the mix is one of his classics.

Know that, mixing is what you do with the tracks in front of you. If you don't have good tracks, you can end up chasing your tail. I would charge you with learning how to capture the source well. If it sounds good after tracking, the mixing process becomes an artistic endeavor versus a mercy mission. Many times a new learner will be challenged with poorly recorded tracks (wrong space, wrong mic, unfocused performance) and then move to mixing while learning all the tools. The chances of success or satisfaction will be very low and your frustration high. Teaching your ear to understand when you have a good sounding track vs an amateur sounding track is important.

As makeshift points out. Half the opinions you will get from people on the internet are guys listening on their laptop or earbuds. Mix opinions can be all over the map based on this alone.

I've visited a few web sites that have educational style videos like Pensado's Place. All sorts of music related topics are discussed in detail by experts in the field. 

Surely it is not an inconvenience to "set in" on a few of these master class sessions to learn something.... is it? 


You should not have to listen to all of them to get the information that will help take your mixes to the next level. Most of the seminar videos I have seen on the sites I inhabit (aside from here) are all very aptly named to make it easy to find the right topic I need. 

Hi Herb,
 
I don't think it's an inconvenience to check any of this stuff out. There are loads of things you can pick up everywhere, that's for sure. The problem I have is, none of the videos work with YOUR particular sounds. For example, if we watch a video that shows a high pass on a guitar from 200 hz on down, that doesn't mean YOU need to do that on YOUR sound. But, how much will you need to do and what are the bad sources in your sound? See, my whole point in addressing this is....ok, wait..let me try this another way. :)
 
Ok, so we're in Herb Hartley Studios' this morning and we're about to record a new piece. :) Do you have your own guitar sounds, bass sounds and vocal sounds that you sort of use all the time? Like you know, the sounds that you'd consider the "safe Herb Hartley sounds" you are confident with that you know sort of work?
 
I think it's safe to say we ALL have those sorts of sounds, right? Ok...so you're with me so far. If we watch videos of people working on other sounds, it can give you an idea on what to work on, but it never totally gives you the answers on YOUR sounds. Having someone literally pick apart my sounds forced me to create new ones because the ones I thought were good, weren't all that. But I wouldn't have known until someone pointed things out to me.
 
As you mature in this field, you know off the bat whether or not something is going to work. But, to me I sincerely feel all of this starts with YOUR sounds so you can really get an idea on what you're faced with. If not, we keep on making the same mistakes until we either decide to change up our sounds, buy something new, or someone points out why you may not want to use that sound....know what I mean?
 
So for those having problems with mixing, it starts with the sounds they print. If someone doesn't bring to their attention that those sounds need work or show them where they may need to work, nothing changes until the person changes the sound. When you learn what to listen for, it totally changes the playing field. This is why I can't get much out of those other recording videos unless they deal with some sort of technique that would be "in general".
 
But we sincerely have to learn how to use what we have. This makes us grow so much faster. It also makes you search for different avenues as well as possibly updating your gear where if you don't get this sort of feedback, nothing changes.
 
Like John T mentioned about that quote I made about "liking my sound". That doesn't make it good if it doesn't work in the mix, know what I mean? Sure, I got lucky and it could be fixed that particular time, but I'd never use that sound today...and now that I listen to that old sound, I can hear why. When we are not schooled on what or how to listen to something, it's amazing how much differently we hear once we we ARE a little more schooled.
 
There are quite a few old mixes from the 70's and 80's that I loved my entire life. When I listen to them now, I have to totally ignore the mix and listen to the song. That said, I could also be ruined and am over-analyzing things. But, without failure, when I listen to old stuff I liked, the quality just doesn't do anything for me like it once did. And, the first question I ask myself is "ok, I know the band is huge...I know they are loaded with talent and are bigger than I'll ever be, but would I be happy with those sounds?"
 
If my answer is "absolutely not" in my mind, I've matured as an engineer as long as I can do better. I may not be able to write as good or play as good as that band, but in THIS scenario, we're looking at production/quality. I love Queen, but I'd never shoot for the production they got in Bohemian. And...chances are, because of my way of thinking, I might not ever come up with a mix that is as good. Then again...I might come up with something better, you never know. I actually thought of doing that. Replacing the bass, guitar and drums with my own and leaving Freddie sing on it. I wouldn't have the heart to cut his vocals out and replace them with my own...nor would I be able to hang with that mutant. LOL! But I'd be curious to hear what MY idea of good instrument sounds would be like. I just could never bring myself to do it out of respect. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

Danny - these posts are excellent!  thank you for your time.

You've mentioned your tutorial videos here and in other threads.  can we get a link to those?

here's a suggestion:  maybe you should open a service (for pay, of course) to take someone's stems and mix them and video record things as you mix in order to help individuals learn what to listen for.  I personally think that would be extremely helpful to me!  I agree with you 100% - I don't know what to listen for!  but I don't know any way to figure it out other than trying and trying and trying again on the same thing that I have done before - which, obviously  - gets me nowhere!

Bristol_Jonesey


I’ve been going back through this thread and trying to work out what it was that got Ben so riled as he was in post #24 – and I’ve failed totally.
I honestly don’t know why he attacked you in the way he did Danny – you didn’t even mention him in any of your posts (you’re not the type of guy that does that anyway – all your posts are designed to educate, help others and shed a little light on some of the mysteries of mixing).
I’m beginning to suspect maybe some bipolar disorder, because he’s clearly reading things that nobody else can actually see, so on that basis, I feel a little pity for him.

The facts seem to fit the pattern – the self aggrandisement, the petulant shows of angst, the self-opinionated pseudo-facts that he writes.
All of this suggests a chemical imbalance of some sort.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe he’s just a grade A A-hole.

I never see where it stems from and then I become the bad guy for fighting back most times. It's just not fair mate...but oh well, it is what it is. Thanks for telling me your thoughts. Sometimes it's good to hear that others see things as I do. I'm never upset when people don't agree with me...but when they spot the obvious and admit what they see, it definitely holds more credibility in my opinion. :)  It's when they see it, ignore it and say "ok both of you stop it" that REALLY makes me angry. Go after the source, not the guy that refuses to take any crap and fights back. Smack a pit bull around enough, you'll lose a hand. Ok, I'm more like a Chihuahua...but still! :)
 
-Danny

Smack a pit bull around enough, you'll lose a hand. Ok, I'm more like a Chihuahua...but still! :)

Interesting imagery.........

Anyway, this is a good thread. Let's forget about Cousin It and stick with it.

Danny, I don't think I've ever said it before, but I really enjoy reading your posts.  I think you're giving some very practical, valuable advice and I want you to know that it's appreciated. 

Not all of us have had the opportunity to partner up with an experienced engineer and have him/her explain why they're doing things and making certain decisions.  You have a knack for taking a reasonably complex subject and explaining it in simple terms that don't sound condescending.  Thanks for that.

Beagle


Danny - these posts are excellent!  thank you for your time.

You've mentioned your tutorial videos here and in other threads.  can we get a link to those?

here's a suggestion:  maybe you should open a service (for pay, of course) to take someone's stems and mix them and video record things as you mix in order to help individuals learn what to listen for.  I personally think that would be extremely helpful to me!  I agree with you 100% - I don't know what to listen for!  but I don't know any way to figure it out other than trying and trying and trying again on the same thing that I have done before - which, obviously  - gets me nowhere!

Hi Reece,
 
You're very welcome and thanks for the kind words! Well, unfortunately there aren't any video links because they are all custom made for each person that approaches me. I never use anything generic and always create from the ground up talking TO the person that hired me.
 
Just what you said is how it works. However, we try not to use stems. What people do is, they send me an entire mix either in wave format or in a Sonar bundle file. From there, I load up their project and run video the whole time. We listen to their sounds first the way they are, and I tell them what's wrong with them and show them various ways we can fix the sounds. I do this until all instruments are accounted for and then we form/sculpt the mix. Compression, various effects, panning, tricks and tips, all this stuff gets covered using your mix, the plugins of your choice (if I have them, if not you need to freeze them or process them) right in Sonar.
 
So it's really fool-proof and you learn with everything you are already used to. I've had a really nice end result with all my students that have stuck with it. Some just needed one video in order for them to "get it". Others want to be a little more complete and have been with me for a few years. It all depends on what you're looking to achieve. But I usually show quite a few things from fixing sounds, resampling or re-triggering sounds, introducing you to plugs I use that you may not have so you can see/hear what they do, different ways to make something work, busses, side chaining, parallel compression, what compressor to use for certain things....the list is huge. But it all depends on what you want to do. I can even concentrate on different techniques as well as working on specific instruments. It's always different and can be completely custom. :)
 
I don't like to give names of the people that study with me as that is not up to me, but a close friend of yours is studying with me now and is making incredible gains in my opinion. I believe you may be working with him on something new right now. :) But he's been a joy to work with as well as Markno who made a pretty incredible improvement after one video. But both of those guys had a clue going into it. They just needed a few fine tuning things as well as being taught what and how to listen for things. Both of them have sent me mixes that were so improved, they don't need me anymore. Mark's last few mixes have been great in my opinion...when he wasn't over-compressing. :-Þ His last VH mix was better than the one I did and closer to authentic than mine...baystid! I'm not afraid to admit defeat! :)
 
But stuff like over compression is nothing to worry about as long as you catch it. He knew it before I said anything. The thing is to make the mix audible and without blatant errors in frequency. We'll never satisfy everyone with our mixes. There will always be someone that doesn't like something or may take a shot at one of the instruments you chose. However, if they just say "well, I didn't like your guitar or snare sound" yet both don't have errors or things that make them sound bad, you're right where you want to be. It's your art, your song, your vision, your instruments.
 
We want to make instruments get along together. To do that, we have to know what frequencies will work and which ones will not. When to cut, when to boost. You always want to be a cutter if possible and save a boost as your last resort. If you have too much treble, you remove it first...don't add more bass. Too much bass, don't add treble. The thing there is, you have to know when to do that and when something MAY need a boost because it's too thin.
 
For example, I recently worked on that mix that James G posted on the song forum. For a one take, all in one track, that was pretty awesome because the performance was so great. However, we needed to cut more than we needed to boost on that stuff because it was a very warm, congested nearly analog sound. So once you remove the mid range congestion on something like that, you can sometimes be left with something that is a little thin.
 
So we then have to boost some frequencies to get back what we lost and it's up to you to sweep through and decide which of those you'll boost that enhance the best. Because it was just an acoustic guitar and a voice, we had to be careful of low end. Nothing under 180 was left in there for the most part because quite simply, it didn't need to be. But if you don't know what to listen for and just take things like "ok, this is a guitar...it needs to be thick...this is a voice, it needs to be equally as thick" you end up with congestion because the key to thick is mid range. But you have to use the right mids and use them in moderation.
 
The source you print also creates this thickness. I think the most asked question other than compression is "how can I thicken up my mixes?" The answer is simply...it starts with the print. If you record with a Radio Shack mic, the sound will only be so big. Each mic literally gives us a sound size. A 421 is going to give you more of a sound size than a Realistic mic. A Neumann is going to give you more sound size than an SM 58. So it's "bigger" coming out of the gate. This is why most studio's have a big mic locker.
 
A big mic on a big voice may be too much. Bigger isn't always better (shh ladies...I can hear you laughin now!) when it comes to mixes. Making things wider can disconnect a mix so you have to be careful there too with all these imagers and excessive pans. They sound great in headphones, but on real monitors...man, it's way too separated and disconnected in my opinion.
 
When Philip and I work together, he's a genius at widening and placing things all over the place. But, if I don't reel him in at times, we can get a mix that sounds a little too separated and it literally can kill your impact. In his case, some simple narrowing fixes everything. But in the case of those in need of thickness coming out of the gate, we need to always concentrate on the source of the print. When you have to make something bigger once you begin to mix it, you either do that for effect purposes or because "hey, this is all I have".
 
Now, we've come a long way with impulses and cab emulation etc. But when that stuff first came out, you couldn't really substitute it for a mic'd guitar cab. The reason being? It sounded too direct...there wasn't any air between the mic/cab to make it realistic and it just had a snarl about it that sounded like plugging a distortion box right into a console. Now days, we have cab impulses that are so realistic that capture a mic'd tone, people can't tell. Seriously...when done correctly, I sure can't tell. But again, there will always be a certain something you gain from the size of a print. (print = recording by the way)
 
Run an acoustic guitar direct and then mic it. Or do both at the same time and compare. The mic'd sound will always smoke the DI in actual sound size. With distorted guitars, this seems to be less important due to all the gain. The more gain we use, the smaller the sound unless you really mic up or impulse hybrid like crazy to form a sound stage. If we mic a clean sound and then kick on some gain using the same mic arrangement, the sound gets smaller due to the distortion. Take a guy like our beloved Frank on the song forum. He has a huge guitar sound all the time. Why? He's not using hyperdrive going through it like I would on my tone.
 
So there are lots of things to factor in really. But none of them matter unless someone points them out to a person. We never grow if we keep on using the same sounds and fail mix after mix. This is why I started doing the video thing. It teaches you how to deal with your sounds. When you learn to deal with your sounds and keep at it, you can then deal with other peoples sounds because you know right from wrong. But without direction and someone literally showing you the differences, you can definitely spin your wheels for years before this stuff starts to give you any sort of enjoyment.
 
I look at it this way...if I love this field and cringe everytime I go to mix something and end up unhappy, my days are going to be numbered doing this due to frustration, right? Ok, we'll try to stick it out...but you can only fall on your face so many times before you say "ok Yoyo, you mix this for me man...please? I can't take no more!" Though it's cool to do that and James probably appreciates the work, wouldn't it be great if you did it yourself? I've heard your stuff Reece....you always do a nice job too man. All you need is a few pointers here and there so you can tell what to listen for and how to fix it. Honest when I tell you, it's like the clouds parting after a storm when you can just listen to something and KNOW what the deal is. Even if you have a hard time fixing it, at least you know where the problem lies. Sometimes it takes more time to fix things, other times it's instant.
 
Anyway, sheesh...I totally posted too much this morning. Sorry for that. I just hope some of this stuff has been helpful. :) Back to work for me...have a great day everyone. :)
 
-Danny

bandontherun19


I know that the guru's here? The mix-masters have knowledge, templates, practiced techniques? And I really look up to a lot of people here.
 
Then there are others who are really pretty good?
 
Then there are most people?
 
And then? There's me...
 
My goal is to rise to the level of "pretty good." But the time involved? The time is like a job? I put one up recently, it was "OK" I tweaked it quite a bit, it's better, but it's still OK.
 
I've taken some advice from some people I respect, and had to go back in and re-do some things... And listen, and redo some things, and listen, etc... It's taken a week, and I'm probably 1/2 way there? My problem previously (and still) is that I'm an artist 1st. I record, I track, and when I'm done? I do a quick mix, and try to improve it based on feedback. But what I want to do is put out a 1st mix where people listen and say, "hey that's pretty good!" I have a lot of the performance aspect down. I fight with the mix... But it seems like, if you slow down? If you listen to each track, and listen objectivly, and see what needs an envelop, what needs EQ, and what needs to be "re-recorded?"
 
I think this is what the people who are really good at it do. Like sniffing a carton of milk to see if it's off? They just have really well trained noses/ears. You can hide a bunch of "crap" in the mix, with compressors, and limiters, etc... But another thing that the people who do this "really well" do, is they separate the wheat from the chaff.. On the way in, before the mixing/mastering.
 
I still don't understand it "well." But I am trying hard... My next remix, I want a few folks in particular to stand up and take notice. But it takes "hours", "days", "weeks..." I think people who do it quickly are especially gifted.

My feelings on this are that many musicians are trained as musicians, but not necessarily as creative artists, and so they become frustrated when they begin learning about art making.

When it comes to arranging and mixing I think that anyone, who has some back ground in some form of art making, has a head start over any one who hasn't.

The fundamental premise of any art making (or craft) is that it is a step by step process and each step relates to all the other steps.

The experience of taking baby steps while reminding yourself of the aesthetic goal is universal to almost any and all art making.

There are countless ways to make art, but the basic cause and effect experience is universal, and any experience one has with it, in any medium, enhances competency and comfort in other mediums.

When people have the experience of developing art step by step then the art of mixing becomes more transparent and the methodology becomes more obvious.

The fact that we all have different experiences to relate to is why some people feel that mixing is easy and others feel it is some sort of difficult to learn art.


If you don't have much experience making hundreds of minor qualitative decisions that amalgamate into a aesthetic impression than the task may seem over whelming.

If you have a bunch of experience making hundreds of minor qualitative decisions that amalgamate into a aesthetic impression than the task may seem familiar.

If you don't have much experience, than you will learn that making these decisions will seem easier as you get more experience.

The good news is that once you have the experience you will realize how mixing isn't actually hard to do. It's is just a lot of hard work.


You can do it.

Follow your instincts and be willing to change you mind.

"Listen" more than you "think", and learn how to listen effectively so as to incorporate specific interests into a project wide awareness.

Practice keeping a holistic perspective on the entire project while scrutinizing the details.



That is basic art making... and YOU CAN DO IT!!!



all the very best,
mike

Sheesh, your posts get better & better man.

Even reading between the lines on this thread alone, I want to go back and unpick my last few mixes & start again.

Take care Danny - I'm sure we'll speak again soon.

Mr. T Anyway, this is a good thread. Let's forget about Cousin It and stick with it.

Agreed! I promise to do my best to adhere by that!

Bubba with the flexible chic in profile Danny, I don't think I've ever said it before, but I really enjoy reading your posts. I think you're giving some very practical, valuable advice and I want you to know that it's appreciated.

Not all of us have had the opportunity to partner up with an experienced engineer and have him/her explain why they're doing things and making certain decisions. You have a knack for taking a reasonably complex subject and explaining it in simple terms that don't sound condescending. Thanks for that.

Thanks for that Bubba. No, actually I don't recall any comments coming from you. I wasn't quite sure what your feelings were about me...so this makes me feel great..thank you. :)

I really do try my best to make a difference here which is why I become so defensive when attacked. I definitely take things a bit too serious at times, but can't help my passion and need to really help people. I'm glad that you've taken me exactly the way I hope everyone would. I'm honestly not in this for business or to have anyone bow down to me. It's really not about that. I just get so tired of living in a world of hype and deception. It has always bothered me. I never got anything from anyone when I asked for it other than riddles. This stuff isn't as hard or complicated as people make it out to be. No one should have to be smart to understand this stuff.

I'm the first to admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'll also admit that as much as I love Bob Katz that his book hasn't helped me become a better mastering engineer. It's too complicated for me and I am a certified dope. I still try to read it over and over. But it's just out of my league. That said, I didn't need that book to be decent at this and don't need most of the science that surrounds it. I just try to stress that all the time because I sincerely feel people get too wrapped up with the science to remember why they do this. It's all about sounds, ears, abilities and choices. I don't need science for any of that and neither does anyone else. If it helps them to do a better job, I will never take that away from them. I'm just saying it's not a necessity and we don't need to make this any more complicated to people. This is why I always go all out to explain things hopefully in a language that any dope like me can understand. :)

So it's like this...bottom line. I'm not the greatest engineer since sliced bread, I don't believe that, don't expect anyone else to, I don't have any awards, I don't have any degrees other than the gift of hearing, and I've never done anything credible other than two world wide releases for myself via 3 different record labels and work with some big name people that keep on coming back to me. That's all I've done..truth be told. So I'm a nobody but a proud nobody. :) 

That said, I have no problems sharing what I do know with others. If you like what I do, have gotten some results out of the info I've shared, then I'm credible. If you don't like what I've shared, and my info hasn't worked for you when you've tried it, I'm all for chalking me up as "a windbag". LOL! But I'll always be a windbag with the best of intentions that sincerely wants to make a difference for the better in this community. :) Again, thanks for the kind words and the post. :)

-Danny

Thanks so much Danny!  Yes, I know who you're talking about and I think his mixes have improved 100X in the last few songs!  the one I'm working on with him I think is probably his best mix yet.

I'll send you an email in the next day or two.  take care my friend!

There's another very good point in there about how you "don't need most of the science that surrounds it". A lot of that stuff is interesting, of course, and if it floats your boat, then go for it. But you don't need to be able to build a plane to be a good pilot, and it's also worth noting that being able to build a plane doesn't automatically make you a pilot. Leo Fender never learned to play the guitar, and most guitarists can't build one. Applying this to our field, there's a lot to be said for just learning how to mix, and entrusting that the people making the tools have done their job right.

One of the most interesting and refreshing threads I've read here in a couple of years..keep it going guys.