Helpful ReplyTime to upgrade, any tips?

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poetnprophet
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2018/04/17 04:09:30 (permalink)

Time to upgrade, any tips?

Hey everyone.  I currently run a Win10 Pc with Intel i7 950, 12GB ram.  I know it's pretty old but it's been a workhorse for sure, however I am topping out on every mix with maybe 30+ plugins.  Running the VS700 drivers at 4096 samples just to keep going without having to bounce tracks to keep mixing.  So, I'm guessing it's time for an upgrade?  It's been a very long time since I had to put together a PC, so any advice/recommendations?  My budget is $2000
 
Here's what I need to do with my system:
- Record up to 10 audio inputs simultaneously
- Record with plugins realtime (interface notwithstanding)
- Record 10-20 tracks midi from synth plugins
- Playback 50-100 audio tracks
- Run instances of plugins on every track, plus 8-10 busses with plugs
- High speed USB for the (current) interface, midi keyboard, and a USB hub
- At least 6 additional usb for stuff
- Burn CDs
- Run 3 monitors 
- Oh, and run Cakewalk!
 
I'm probably forgetting some things, but i think this is a good start?  I'm not as familiar with hardware/components so go easy on me.  My rig would sit under my desk.  Noise is not a huge concern right now but should be kept as low as possible, of course.  Something that would last another 5+ years.
 
thanks in advance...
Dave

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
Hulk 990, NT1A
Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
www.kdubbproductions.com
https://www.bandlab.com/kdubbproductions 
#1
fireberd
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 10:28:15 (permalink)
With that budget, I would contact Jim Roseberry at StudoCat.  He can build you a great DAW system, tailored to what you need, for that price.  Don't mess with the brand name's as they won't satisfactorily do the job.  I've been working with a guy on the Dell forum that bought a high end Dell Alienware model, to use with a high end AVID C24 console that connects via Ethernet and he can't get it working.  Even Sweetwater can't get his interface going.
 
http://www.studiocat.com/opencart2/

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#2
Mesh
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 14:32:45 (permalink)
+1 for Jim

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#3
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 14:50:46 (permalink)
Actually that was the first place I looked, then some similar, but can't afford any of those builds right now, let alone the build I want.  That budget is my limit and I want something that will last another 5+ years.  Someone else mentioned cyperpowerPC, I've been trying to build a spec there but I'm lost on a few things.  I think I want the 8700k processor, but i'm not sure which motherboard to go with it, liquid cooling, or which fans to get for cooling that won't sound like a vacuum.  Definitely not going with Dell or anything like that.

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
Hulk 990, NT1A
Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
www.kdubbproductions.com
https://www.bandlab.com/kdubbproductions 
#4
fret_man
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 17:00:01 (permalink)
Liquid cooling can actually get pretty loud. I recommend traditional, but large fans and run them slowly. Don't get a case with a see-thru window as those act as baffles and can amplify internal vibration. I couldn't find anything on cyberpowerPC that would interest me. I'd start with Jim or ADK.
#5
fireberd
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 17:09:56 (permalink)
The Corsair liquid coolers have loud fans (I had one and complained to Corsair and was told users were installing after market fans).  
I have a DeepCool Captain 120EX Liquid Cooler on my i7 6700K and it idles around 30 deg C.  Rare that it hits 50 deg C.
The fan with this model is "dead quiet".  The case is a BeQuiet 600 with a double pane type side panel and that baffles any noise. 

"GCSG Productions"
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#6
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/17 18:53:57 (permalink)
@fireberd, Do you overclock on your build?

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i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
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#7
Kev999
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/19 00:29:30 (permalink)
In my new DAW PC, built last September, I fitted a BeQuiet Silent Loop 280mm cooler. It has 2 fans but I only fitted one of them and that's probably sufficient. The fan doesn't even come on until the PC has been on for a while and doesn't ever speed up and become audible unless the CPU is doing some heavy work. When it does become audible, all you hear is the sound of airflow, not the fan itself.
 
I posted some details about my recent PC build here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m3720829.aspx

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HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/25 05:41:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Drumafied 2018/04/28 18:12:30
I recently upgraded my system.  I went with an Intel Core i7-8700 (not the K version), ASUS Prime Z370-P motherboard, 16Gb RAM (will upgrade to 32Gb later), a Samsung 500Gb SSD for the C drive, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.  Since I run four monitors and do some video work, I also added a Gigabyte GeForce NVidia 1050Ti 4Gb graphics card.  I replaced the stock CPU fan with a CoolerMaster Hyper 212 Evo from my old system.  It's very quiet and more than adequate for the i7.  The stock fan might have worked, but I've had overheating issues in the past so felt more comfortable replacing it.  I put all the guts in a Corsair Carbide Series 100R Silent Edition Case.

This system is smokin' fast and reasonably quiet.  The only time I hear the CPU fans really kick in is when I'm rendering video.  Otherwise, the processor barely ticks over.  The Corsair case isn't truly silent, but it's definitely quieter than your average gaming case.  Everything fits inside nicely.  The fans are decent and the sides have noise-reducing baffles.  On the outside, it's just a big black box, which is exactly what I want.  I don't need a carnival light show under my desk (I've got more than enough of that in my studio).  I needed more USB ports, so I added an 8-port front panel hub, and two back-panel inserts.  

One "gotcha" to watch out for with this motherboard/processor combo is the C-State setting in the BIOS.  It must be disabled, or your processor will think, "Gee, if nobody's going to challenge me I'll just take a little nap."  It's supposedly a power-saving feature, but it makes your DAW run like crap.  Once disabled, everything runs like an champ.  

I managed to get most of the components on sale.  Windows 10 was free (I signed up back when Microsoft offered it), and I used most of my old hard drives, monitors, mouse, keyboard, etc.  So the basic system came in under $1,000.   Of course, that's not counting a new audio interface, fourth monitor, Slate Raven, and other odds and ends.  Add all that up, and...well, I don't even want to go there.  But the core system was pretty reasonable.  If you don't need such a beefy video card, you could build a fantastic system for under $800.

I could have gotten the i7 8700K for a little more, but I don't feel overclocking is necessary.  It just uses more power, requires more cooling (thus more noise) and potentially shortens the life of the processor, all for a negligible performance gain.  The standard i7 8700 is lightning fast and plenty powerful without overclocking.  I do look forward to upgrading the RAM to 32Gb though.  

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
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V-Studio VS-700
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Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
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#9
Drumafied
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/28 18:33:23 (permalink)
Im fixin to upgrade to a new computer completely and had a question. Was probably going with a i7 8700k computer from portatech site but you dont have to over clock it correct? So like you said, less power and fan noise but if i wanted to or needed to i could overclock it at a later date? ? Im coming from taking a long break being with family (played music nonstop for 15yrs) and upgrading from sonar 7 and windows xp (lol) so im new at learning all of this. Thanks!
#10
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/04/30 17:23:10 (permalink)
Hey everyone, thanks for the input.  I am patiently waiting for my new build, it will be another (excruciating) 2 weeks before I receive.  I ordered from cyberpowerpc, it came in at about $2100 including shipping.  I don't know all the brands and specs, but here's what I should have:
 
Full tower gaming case with light show (ha), smallest window they had, some noise dampening on the fans and case.
i7 8700k overclocked 20%
gigabyte z370 gaming 7 something motherboard
32GB ram, 500gb ssd, 2TB hdd
deepcool 240mm liquid cool
+4 thermaltake 120mm fans
Win10 pro
edit: GTX 2GB video
 
 
Thanks for the tip about the C-state, Heather.  I'm so worried that I'm going to do all this and make something worse.  
 
Dave
post edited by poetnprophet - 2018/04/30 18:21:24

Cakewalk by Bandlab
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#11
HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/10 19:32:16 (permalink)
Drumafied
Im fixin to upgrade to a new computer completely and had a question. Was probably going with a i7 8700k computer from portatech site but you dont have to over clock it correct? So like you said, less power and fan noise but if i wanted to or needed to i could overclock it at a later date? ? Im coming from taking a long break being with family (played music nonstop for 15yrs) and upgrading from sonar 7 and windows xp (lol) so im new at learning all of this. Thanks!



Sure, if you don't overclock it the i7 8700k is the same as the 8700.  It's just unlocked so overclocking is possible.  They're both great processors. 

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#12
HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/10 19:33:47 (permalink)
poetnprophet
Thanks for the tip about the C-state, Heather.  I'm so worried that I'm going to do all this and make something worse.  

 
Sounds like a great new system, Dave.  Let us know how it works out for you. :)

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#13
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/10 19:36:39 (permalink)
Note:
If you want to lock all six cores at 4700MHz, you need the K version to do that.
To do this, you need a cooler more substantial than the Hyper 212 EVO.
Six cores running at 4700MHz puts off a fair amount of heat.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#14
HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/10 20:09:05 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
Note:
If you want to lock all six cores at 4700MHz, you need the K version to do that.
To do this, you need a cooler more substantial than the Hyper 212 EVO.
Six cores running at 4700MHz puts off a fair amount of heat.



Thanks for the tip, Jim.  I definitely agree the K version needs better cooling.  But the Hyper seems to be doing a great job on my non-K 8700.  The cores appear to be running at 4.42GHz with no heat issues.  Is 4.7GHz worth the extra expense? 

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#15
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/13 21:47:06 (permalink)
Hey everyone, got the new system up and running today.  Other than my account being locked for some weird reason, I had no issues getting all of the software installed and setup.  
 
I went through all of guides on optimization, even turned of c-states (but haven't found hyperthreading settings yet).
 
Opened a project today that had maxed out the last system with a 4096 sample size:  30+ tracks and probably twice as many plugins including stuff on the master buss.  On the new system, cpu meters were way down.  I lowered the sample size to 128, and it played better than before. 
 
All i can say is Wow!  
thanks again for all the tips :)
 
Dave

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
Hulk 990, NT1A
Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
www.kdubbproductions.com
https://www.bandlab.com/kdubbproductions 
#16
HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/14 05:17:34 (permalink)
poetnprophet
Hey everyone, got the new system up and running today.  Other than my account being locked for some weird reason, I had no issues getting all of the software installed and setup.  
 
I went through all of guides on optimization, even turned of c-states (but haven't found hyperthreading settings yet).
 
Opened a project today that had maxed out the last system with a 4096 sample size:  30+ tracks and probably twice as many plugins including stuff on the master buss.  On the new system, cpu meters were way down.  I lowered the sample size to 128, and it played better than before. 
 
All i can say is Wow!  
thanks again for all the tips :)
 
Dave



Sweeeeeeeeeet.   Congrats, Dave.  Have fun!  :)

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#17
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/14 14:40:33 (permalink)
HeatherHaze
Thanks for the tip, Jim.  I definitely agree the K version needs better cooling.  But the Hyper seems to be doing a great job on my non-K 8700.  The cores appear to be running at 4.42GHz with no heat issues.  Is 4.7GHz worth the extra expense? 

 
IMO, Yes... it's worth the small extra expense (~$50 for the 8700K and more substantial cooler).
All six cores (12 processing threads) locked at 4700MHz is fast.  




Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/15 00:54:47 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
IMO, Yes... it's worth the small extra expense (~$50 for the 8700K and more substantial cooler).
All six cores (12 processing threads) locked at 4700MHz is fast.  

 
Hmm, thanks.  I might consider that upgrade in the not-too-distant future.  Although in all honesty, I haven't come anywhere close to making the non-K version break a sweat.  That said, what cooler would you recommend for the 8700K?  

Thanks for the input!

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#19
Daibhidh
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/15 01:23:50 (permalink)
Does anyone bother with large heatsinks anymore? I always preferred them over noisy fans.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/15 13:36:48 (permalink)
I wouldn't go fully passive.  The 8700k puts off too much heat for that.
Large heatsink with large low RPM fan 
 
The right cooler is near dead silent.
You have to put your ear right next to it to hear anything.
Condenser mics just a few feet away isn't a problem.
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#21
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/15 17:09:41 (permalink)
I have to admit, my system is not that quiet.  It's not louder than the previous system which had a very large fan and heatsink, but it's noticeable and just a bit louder than the VS700R fan (which I never even noticed before until recently seeing posts here about it).  I don't record anywhere near the system, though, so it's not an issue.
 
Dave
 

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
Hulk 990, NT1A
Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
www.kdubbproductions.com
https://www.bandlab.com/kdubbproductions 
#22
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/17 17:06:22 (permalink)
I also have to say, after reading many many articles and threads about graphics card needs, my take-away was that a top tier graphics card is unnecessary.  Wrong.
 
I run 2 monitors (actually 3, but one is duplicate with HDMI splitter), the main one for wav/track view and the other for console.  In the last build, when I would scroll the console view with 30+ tracks, the frame rate drop was reakkt significant and ugly.  And, if I need to see signal data (like via Izotope Insight), huge latency in the readings and not smooth at all.  With this new build, it is better but I would have expected at least a stable 30 fps if not better.  If I have 2 Izotope plug windows open, frame rate suffers still considering I'm trying to monitor the signal in real time.
 
Just FYI.  In hindsight I would have gone for the 4GB video.
 
Dave

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
MOTU 828es, VS700(idle)
Hulk 990, NT1A
Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
www.kdubbproductions.com
https://www.bandlab.com/kdubbproductions 
#23
HeatherHaze
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/18 03:28:52 (permalink)
poetnprophet
I also have to say, after reading many many articles and threads about graphics card needs, my take-away was that a top tier graphics card is unnecessary.  Wrong.
 
I run 2 monitors (actually 3, but one is duplicate with HDMI splitter), the main one for wav/track view and the other for console.  In the last build, when I would scroll the console view with 30+ tracks, the frame rate drop was reakkt significant and ugly.  And, if I need to see signal data (like via Izotope Insight), huge latency in the readings and not smooth at all.  With this new build, it is better but I would have expected at least a stable 30 fps if not better.  If I have 2 Izotope plug windows open, frame rate suffers still considering I'm trying to monitor the signal in real time.
 
Just FYI.  In hindsight I would have gone for the 4GB video.
 
Dave


Thanks for that FYI, Dave.  I hope I wasn't one of the people who steered you wrong!  I knew my graphics needs were high, so I went for a fairly beefy graphics card (and have loved it).  Running four monitors (one's the Slate Raven) is pretty taxing on the video system, especially when you add HD video into the mix.  I wouldn't have guessed that a 2Gb card would lag with two monitors and a fast system, though.  I'll definitely keep that in mind here on out.

)-|-( HeatherHaze
http://heatherhaze.com/

"This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

Cakewalk by Bandlab
Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
V-Studio VS-700
Slate Raven MTi2
Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
#24
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/18 12:24:14 (permalink)
If you're talking about video "lagging", that can involve numerous factors:
  • If running a video within Sonar (scoring to video) - the type of video can have a major affect on performance
  • Running a 4K monitor via HDMI and using an older HDMI cable, the monitor refresh-rate may be 30Hz (instead of 60Hz).  This is awful for eye-strain headaches... and mouse movement is jerky.
 
If you just working with straight up audio projects (no video)... and running a pair of 1920x1080 monitors, you don't need high-end video.  DAW applications themselves don't put heavy demand on video.
 
If running multiple 4K monitors, you've got no choice but go higher-end video.
Doing video editing (running more demanding video plugins like New Blue "Titler Pro"), you've got to have higher end video.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#25
poetnprophet
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/18 20:07:05 (permalink)
I'm not running any video, just working with audio.  Interesting is that the video card shows only 25% processing at most.  So, what is it then?  Also, not a 4K monitor, just regular 1080p.
 
@Heather, no don't worry.  I don't recall exactly, but from several articles and threads I've read that about graphics.  Since I'm not working with video at all really, I thought I'd be safe with 2GB, upgrade from 512mb ha.
 
dave 

Cakewalk by Bandlab
i7 8700k, 32GB, Win 10pro
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Slate Digital, Izotope, Waves
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#26
mettelus
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Re: Time to upgrade, any tips? 2018/05/20 07:12:35 (permalink)
Sans GPU, the CPU will take the burden of graphics processing, so there will be some overhead associated with that.

In reality, GPUs do not really give much in the realm of 2D (DAWs are only 2D for the most part) aside from unloading the CPU. Their forte is more in the 3D realm, high frame rates, and CUDA (if used). As Jim mentioned, 4K can be strenuous on multiple monitors, so a GPU can help there as well.

That said, also bear in mind that all onboard graphics are not created equal, and the actual machine will also play into performance.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#27
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