VariousArtist
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Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
UPDATE JUNE 1st: Ripple Edits in development!! :-) Original Request: Editing a region of the timeline (i.e all tracks and clips within that region) such that it is either deleted or moved elsewhere should accomplish the same result as if we were editing/deleting/moving a region of a stereo wav file. This means that Sonar will have to do some housekeeping with elements that occur before, during and after that region, such as tempo changes, time signature changes, envelopes, markers, clips across boundaries, clips within and beyond the region, etc. I am using gbowling's description for how to accomplish this as described in this link (click here) There a few housecleaning chores that sonar would have to do to accomplish this. Any markers, tempo changes, whatever should be anchored to wherever they were in the song and move with the rest of it. If a midi note was cut in between a note on and a note off, then a new note on would be at the cut point (because in the song that note was ON at that point) and the note off should remain at the same place it was. So now the note is shortened. If you remove a section where the tempo is ramping, it should remove whatever piece of the ramp which will require re-positioning some things in the tempo map. But at the end it should play JUST like it would be if you cut the hole out of the rendered stereo wav file.
Basically I do this manually but it is a lot of work and a lot of steps that I outlined in that thread (click here). Sometimes I may even render all the clips such that they are all the same length, but this seems overkill and should be unnecessary. I hope everyone agrees this is a fundamental feature and that it will benefit us all to have all forms of editing a section to be made that much easier (especially when there are tempo and time changes). And thanks to sharke for bringing this up again on the forums (click here)
post edited by VariousArtist - 2016/06/01 12:38:12
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dwardzala
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/25 19:55:38
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In general I think this is a good set of logic to make the behavior predictable.
However, there is one part that I don't necessarily agree with, and that is the inserting a new note on where the break is. If you have a long duration note which modulates or changes over time, or has a very distinctive attack, it may not be appropriate to have a note on signal at the break. I would prefer that the notes be deleted completely as it makes far more sense from a musical perspective.
The other thing that needs to be sorted out is what the anchor points are - start of song, end of song (although I am not sure Sonar recognizes such a point) or some other point (marker?)
I am definitely all for simplifying this procedure, but it is a bit more complicated that it appears on first glance.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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VariousArtist
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/25 19:59:21
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The anchor points would be at the boundary points of the region. I currently add these manually so that tempo and time changes don't go haywire when I cut and/or paste sections.
But it seems to me like Sonar should just know to do this
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dwardzala
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/26 08:35:29
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VariousArtist
The anchor points would be at the boundary points of the region. I currently add these manually so that tempo and time changes don't go haywire when I cut and/or paste sections.
But it seems to me like Sonar should just know to do this
Thanks for the clarification. However, that may be the way you want it to work, but others may want it to be the start or the end of the song. In the end, though, we all predictable and logical behavior of this and, as long as the logic make some sense, we can work with the tool. Hopefully we can get there.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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gbowling
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/26 11:18:06
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dwardzala
However, there is one part that I don't necessarily agree with, and that is the inserting a new note on where the break is. If you have a long duration note which modulates or changes over time, or has a very distinctive attack, it may not be appropriate to have a note on signal at the break. I would prefer that the notes be deleted completely as it makes far more sense from a musical perspective.
Agree that a new "note on" might have some different qualities, but deleting the note all together completely removes a sound that would have been there in the stereo wav file example. Having said that, I'm not sure it matters to me either way. If you add a "note on" at the cut point and don't want it there, it's simple to delete it. If you remove it and find that you need it there it's also simple to add it back in. Although adding it back in requires you to go figure out what the note was, whereas deleting it doesn't. So I'm good either way, it just need to be explained in the documentation which one it is. gabo
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Cactus Music
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/27 14:11:07
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What I don't understand, really, is why this works so perfectly in 8.5??
I just tried the same project which became a big mess in our latest flagship version of Sonar, and opened it in 8.5 on my old back up DAW machine. The operation worked flawlessly and took no time at all. Why do the new versions make a mess of re-arranging songs?? Is this as stated, the addition of take lanes??
The project was only using the TTS-1 for some brushes and a string pad. The rest was 3 tracks of acoustic guitar, real bass, 2 vocal tracks.
There was no worry about time or measures as the song was done sans click track.
There was a few volume envelopes but no changes happening any where near the split points.
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VariousArtist
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/28 17:02:06
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^ Not sure if it worked in Sonar 8.5 the way this feature is described but it's possible that some aspects were "better" (such as the delete hole issue I have if MIDI tracks contain no clips in the affected region). But I am hoping for a major update which allows me to "toy" with the arrangement in Sonar just as if I was toying with the arrangement of an exported WAV file of that music.
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stevec
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/02/29 12:45:25
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This seems like it could be related to this other thread in the SONAR forum: http://forum.cakewalk.com/We-REALLY-need-some-easy-way-to-remove-time-from-a-project-m3374452.aspx If so, I like the idea of a "treat the selection as though it were a simple stereo waveform" set of defaults, with options for overriding the behavior of specific elements; e.g., Tempo Changes, Time Signature Changes, Markers, Automation, etc.. That should make the default behavior more predictable, with some additional flexibility for those cases where the default is not what someone wants. Heck, I'd take the default only option as a short(er) term first step, with the additional options added later... with a warning of what to expect if one does not want that stereo track behavior.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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VariousArtist
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/03/28 13:21:50
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jkoseattle
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/03/28 22:41:44
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The functionality of the markers has no bearing on the musical material it is marking, and there's the problem. It's not like you're telling Sonar "This marker is where the verse starts", -- though I would argue that's a major use case for markers -- you're telling it "This is a name I'm giving to 17.4 seconds into the project". The markers and the clips need to have an open communication between them, so that I can create a marker, and clips somehow "belong" to the musical segment I'm defining by that marker.
Now that I think on it though, aren't I really talking about two different kinds of marker entirely, because there's great value in being able to mark 17.4 seconds in regardless of what music is happening at that moment.
So I think we're talking about a new variety of marker, whose purpose is to mark things musically, rather than chronologically.
Sonar Version: Platinum Audio Interface: M-Audio Delta Computer: Dell i5 3.1 GHz, 12Gb RAM, Windows 10 64-bit Soft Synths: EastWest PLAY Symphonic Orchestra MIDI Controllers: M-Audio 2x2 MidiSport Anniv Edition Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms Check out my work here
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Tunerman
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/03/31 09:29:43
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dwardzala
However, there is one part that I don't necessarily agree with, and that is the inserting a new note on where the break is. If you have a long duration note which modulates or changes over time, or has a very distinctive attack, it may not be appropriate to have a note on signal at the break. I would prefer that the notes be deleted completely as it makes far more sense from a musical perspective.
Maybe there is a way to identify "a long duration note" that starts in the previous bar but carries over the bar line into the section you want to cut? A couple thoughts: identifying it with a different color. Or a dotted line or arrow, showing that a note was cut, before or after the edit points.
“When I sit at my worm-eaten piano, I envy no king in his happiness" -F.J.Haydn Sonar Platinum v22.9.2; W10-64; i7,950,3.06Gz;12GB ram;Korg BX3; Korg M1; Roland FP dp. Two grand pianos: 1929 Steinway M 5'7" & a 1913 Steinway B 6'11"; Focusrite PRO24 & 18i8; Yamaha NS10M, JBL LRS305. "Myrna's Love" - Slide show movie of a piano rebuilding process, with original music, recorded using Sonar 8.5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANU-lrom_Y0
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kevinwal
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/03/31 18:18:34
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Tunerman
dwardzala
However, there is one part that I don't necessarily agree with, and that is the inserting a new note on where the break is. If you have a long duration note which modulates or changes over time, or has a very distinctive attack, it may not be appropriate to have a note on signal at the break. I would prefer that the notes be deleted completely as it makes far more sense from a musical perspective.
Maybe there is a way to identify "a long duration note" that starts in the previous bar but carries over the bar line into the section you want to cut? A couple thoughts: identifying it with a different color. Or a dotted line or arrow, showing that a note was cut, before or after the edit points.
That may make sense during the actual cut operation, but I can't see its utility after that since I don't have much of a problem keeping track of such things now. And since the excluded note should be wholly contained within the truncated clip's extents after the operation, I would probably expect that the truncated clip's new boundary be automatically re-extended to include the entire duration of the excluded note, often later in time than the bar marker depending on its duration. This hanging end would be pretty obvious.
Kevin Walsh My latest tunes are at Reverbnation, please give a listen! EVGA X58 Classified III, 24GB Kingston RAM, i7/970 6 core256GB SSD, 2TB HDWindows 10 Build 10586, Sonar Platinum, 2016.03MOTU 8Pre Interface
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Notecrusher
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/04/01 21:27:46
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Cactus Music
What I don't understand, really, is why this works so perfectly in 8.5??
I just tried the same project which became a big mess in our latest flagship version of Sonar, and opened it in 8.5 on my old back up DAW machine. The operation worked flawlessly and took no time at all. Why do the new versions make a mess of re-arranging songs?? Is this as stated, the addition of take lanes??
I think so. Take lanes are buggy. Things like cut/copy/paste, splitting and merging clips confuse them and generally create a mess. I hope Cakewalk will clean up the issues here.
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VariousArtist
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/04/05 13:37:39
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Tunerman
dwardzala
However, there is one part that I don't necessarily agree with, and that is the inserting a new note on where the break is. If you have a long duration note which modulates or changes over time, or has a very distinctive attack, it may not be appropriate to have a note on signal at the break. I would prefer that the notes be deleted completely as it makes far more sense from a musical perspective.
Maybe there is a way to identify "a long duration note" that starts in the previous bar but carries over the bar line into the section you want to cut? A couple thoughts: identifying it with a different color. Or a dotted line or arrow, showing that a note was cut, before or after the edit points.
MIDI complicates things a bit because the note's start and duration are determined by the "note on/off" MIDI events which are discreet moments in MIDI, but result in sound being heard in-between those events. However, I think the solution should simply be the same as if we split a MIDI clip now and moved the clips apart. The first clip would show the MIDI notes suddenly cut off at the end of the clip (where the sound would end too). And the second clip would show the rest of the MIDI notes (but you'd hear no sound due to the absence of the note on command). The user could then slip-edit to manipulate those MIDI notes that cut across the boundary. Alternatively Sonar could offer to create note off/on events at the split clip boundaries, which I can see as being useful though might sound strange in some cases. Either way, my main concern is over the AUDIO editing to end up sounding the same whether you moved sections of a mixed down stereo file, or its constituent track parts. The result should be the same. I think the MIDI editing could be worked in so that it is the same, except for those notes that cross a split bioundary.
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VariousArtist
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Re: Timeline Cutty-Pasty should be EASY! Like editing a stereo wav file
2016/06/01 12:19:39
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Ripple Edits!!
Announced June 1st as "in development"
Yes :-)
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