Timing Of MIDI Notes

can any of my musical friends explain this to me.... I downloaded a MIDI file of a song which sounds great when you play it through synths....
I always thought quantizing your notes to perfection was always best for electronic music - I don't want that "humanized" feel.
The note map below shows the vertical lines set to 32nd's - and yet still notes do not fall directly on the 32nd's - and you can tell they aren't even aligned at the 64th or anything!
If you quantize them to perfect 32nd's they sound wrong... even 32nd triplets sound wrong....
so my question is - why? this is discouraging to me as I can't play that well so I quantize everything - but are there cases you shouldn't quantize?
I get the humanizing aspect, but usually if you take a "humanized" MIDI track and quantize it, it sounds more "perfect"... but this DOESN'T!?!?!?
What is going on here?
 

alewgro
can any of my musical friends explain this to me.... I downloaded a MIDI file of a song which sounds great when you play it through synths....
I always thought quantizing your notes to perfection was always best for electronic music - I don't want that "humanized" feel.
The note map below shows the vertical lines set to 32nd's - and yet still notes do not fall directly on the 32nd's - and you can tell they aren't even aligned at the 64th or anything!
If you quantize them to perfect 32nd's they sound wrong... even 32nd triplets sound wrong....
so my question is - why? this is discouraging to me as I can't play that well so I quantize everything - but are there cases you shouldn't quantize?
I get the humanizing aspect, but usually if you take a "humanized" MIDI track and quantize it, it sounds more "perfect"... but this DOESN'T!?!?!?
What is going on here?
 

Is your ruler showing Measures:Beats above?

why would anyone want to listen to robotic music?
i guess that's why i don't care for electronic stuff,
just feels too stiff.
 

The OP confuses me greatly. You say the song sounds great (as is), yet because you can "see" misalignment, now it doesn't? I assume this is around 140 BPM, so splitting hairs on 64th notes is baffling me.

If it sounds great, but looks terrible, I would shut off my video monitor to solve the issue.

synkrotron
Hi 
 
Do you have a link to that MIDI file?

sure - here it is:
 
http://www.onges-erasure-page.co.uk/wp-content/downloads/waiting.mid
 
the first track is the one - i think it's called "PIPE"

Kalle Rantaaho
You say they sound wrong, when you quantize them.
How does the PRV look after quantizing? Can you actually see, that the quantizing has moved the notes to
positions you know are wrong?
IMO, of all the 8 notes in you PRV capture 4 notes are definately closer to 64ths (close to the middle of space between the 32nd lines) than 32nds, and 3 are exactly on 32nd lines (so matching 64ths),
so I guess this should be quantized to 64ths.
 
Anyway, that looks so accurately played that I wouldn't quantize anything. Btw, when I quantize, I never quantize
100 %. My keyboard playing is quite bad, so I usually move the worst mis-hits manually, and then quantize something like 70-90% by portion, some bars looser, some bars more strictly.  To build a certain feel I often quantize, say, kick drum early or late.

Yes it sounds bad if I quantize to 32nd's.   Once I quantize all the notes move to the closes 32nd beat but it sounds terrible.  
 
It sounds great AS IS in the picture I gave, but I am questioning, why wouldnt it sound right quantized? If anything it should sound tighter.
 
 

Okay... I downloaded that MIDI file and dragged it into Sonar.
 
It brings in eight tracks, one of which is track of patch change and controller events.
 
So, first off, when I opened the drum track in PRV I noticed that the kick drum did not fall on the quarter notes. This is a simple 4/4 tune throughout with the kick drum on each quarter note of each bar. I also noticed that the first quarter note of the second bar where the kick drum starts falls on the second quarter note of the next bar, whereas it should fall on the first.
 
That's a ratio of 4/5, or 0.8 or 80 percent.
 
I then selected all of the MIDI tracks and selected the following command, with the now time set to the start of the song:-
 
Process > Length
 
That brings up a dialogue box.
 
In that box, make sure that "Start Times" and "Durations" are ticked.
 
Set "By" to 80 percent.
 
This will move all the notes back onto the beat.
 
The fun now begins, because there appears to be a built in delay, and I've never seen that before.
 
I've got to get off my PC now so this will have to wait...

Hmmm....  ok try this...  see the track labeled "Pipe"?   adjust it so the first note starts on 1:01:000   you will see the rest of the notes don't fall in alignment, which is what i dont really understand... and if you quantize it, it actually sounds work.   Just those little notes before the one big long one lol
 
:(

Sounds okay on my project... No quantisation required...

Here is the track I was actually looking at.... are you saying not everything in here is quantized?
 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovnj8mfoYxg

That piece of music was not produced using methods we are using today. Some parts may have been synths played and recorded as audio onto tape or a sequencer used to drive a synth and recorded to tape. The played stuff would not have been "quantized" and the sequencer stuff would not need "quantising" because it would be in perfect time.
 
 

What method are you using for quantizing? I am finally at my computer so downloaded and pulled that into X3 (no MIDI outputs enabled), and the file comes up as 135bpm with a 5/16 time signature. Based on your PRV capture, the time signature is different which would make quantizing go out the window on you (You are quantizing to a different time sig).
 
In X3 and above, if you have no MIDI outputs selected in preferences, SONAR will open a MIDI file and insert/route the TTS-1 for you. I am wondering if you did a file/import on this instead?
 
Edit: In the transport module in SONAR, what time signature do you see just to the right of the project bpm?

First... go into preferences... MIDI->Devices, and uncheck ALL available "MIDI outputs" Save and close SONAR.
 
Then right-click the .mid file and "Open With..." and use SONAR... it will auto load/route the TTS-1 for you.
 
Then the transport module should read 135 bpm and 5/16 for the time sig.

If you are quantizing to (both) a different bpm and time signature, it will "blow up" on you completely.
 
Edit: Looking at this file in more detail makes even that time sig look wrong though. I am definitely not savvy with quantization methods, but when "snapping" any notes, that underlying grid needs to be really close to the notes before quantization or they will shift in a "seemingly haphazard" fashion.

The TTS-1 routing was done in X3. MIDI will conform to the bpm of an existing project if imported (default template is 120 at 4/4). The method above is using what the mid file "says" it is. This is not "cut and dry" by any means though, since even the 5/16 doesn't "match" either.