Helpful Reply[Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds

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Anderton
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2013/11/17 14:02:52 (permalink)

[Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds

I basically think all amp sims sound awful - until you tweak them properly, and then they sound great. The TH2 is no exception. I've often talked about using a parametric at an amp sim's output to notch out "annoying frequencies," but Sonar has another particularly useful option.
 
With the ProChannel pre-FX bin and TH2 inserted in the FX bin, engage the ProChannel EQ's low pass filter and set the slope to 48dB/octave (steepest possible). Then, lower the frequency to where the TH2 sounds smooth, and the harshness is gone. This will often be in the 5kHz range, but as always, it's a matter of taste.
 
This is the same basic principle as rolling back a guitar's tone control for a smoother distortion sound, but is more effective at preventing high frequencies (which don't distort all that elegantly) from entering the TH2.
 
If the sound isn't bright enough for you, then add an EQ after the TH2 (Nomad, Sonitus, whatever) and start boosting at around 4kHz (again, according to taste). The sound will still be sweeter because you'll be boosting a smoother, more organic sound instead of one that's harsh and has too many harmonics.
 
Remember that in the real world of guitar amps, most cabinets have very little energy above 5kHz or so. The cabinet acts as a low-pass filter that removes a lot of the harmonics generated by a tube preamp/amp section. Although you could always just filter out the highs after an amp sim to replicate this effect, preventing the highs from entering an amp sim in the first place is a more effective way of dealing with the digital world.
 
For this reason, another useful option that can either complement or replace using the ProChannel lowpass filter is using a de-esser in front of the amp sim to make sure highs don't go into the sim when the guitar is generating high levels.  I use the VC-64 for this and place it in the FX bin, before the amp sim.

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Lynn
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/17 14:32:14 (permalink)
Thanks, Craig.  I play a Strat, and I'm sure this will be particularly helpful.  BTW, I still have your 1979 book "Recording For Musicians" which taught me how to use my Tascam 80-8 studio.  Thanks for that, too.

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Marcus Curtis
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/17 14:33:55 (permalink)
Thanks for the tip. This is similar to some of the tips that are in the videos you did for X1 which I purchased and looked at many times. IMHO cutting frequencies around 5k or a little above take away a lot of harshness and make most amp sims sound better. Again.....Thanks for the tip
 
By the way It would be cool to see you do some videos for X3 as well.

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Anderton
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/17 15:10:51 (permalink)
Marcus Curtis
Thanks for the tip. This is similar to some of the tips that are in the videos you did for X1 which I purchased and looked at many times. IMHO cutting frequencies around 5k or a little above take away a lot of harshness and make most amp sims sound better. Again.....Thanks for the tip
 
By the way It would be cool to see you do some videos for X3 as well.




I don't think I've ever mentioned using the ProChannel lowpass before an amp sim, but if I did, it's still worth repeating
 
As to videos, stay tuned...it's under discussion.

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jps
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/17 17:53:08 (permalink)
I usually import a track of pink noise that I loop play. Turn down the volume of my audio interface a tad .
Bring up a spectrum analyzer. I start by moving the cabinet mic(s) slowly side to side up and down while listening for changes and try to find the sweet spot . You get surprised how much you can change the sound just by moving the mic (s) Then I start with the amp Bass , Mid and Treble turn the knobs listen and observe where in the spectrum changes take place . And if there are any offending frequency just kill them with eq :-)

This is just my way of working with TH2 :-))

All the best
Jan
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 11:48:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby wizard71 2013/11/18 20:18:36
Anderton
Marcus Curtis
Thanks for the tip. This is similar to some of the tips that are in the videos you did for X1 which I purchased and looked at many times. IMHO cutting frequencies around 5k or a little above take away a lot of harshness and make most amp sims sound better. Again.....Thanks for the tip
 
By the way It would be cool to see you do some videos for X3 as well.




I don't think I've ever mentioned using the ProChannel lowpass before an amp sim, but if I did, it's still worth repeating
 
As to videos, stay tuned...it's under discussion.


As I remember the videos I was referring to the tip about cutting around 5k. You had different approaches to doing this. This is the first time you mentioned the pro channel Low pass and using it with the amp sim.
 
I look forward to any new videos you produce on behalf of cakewalk. The information in the other two videos you did for the x series was really helpful. I especially liked your tip about using two sonitus reverb units and using phase cancellation to capture the very end of a reverb trail. I used that a few times on nylon string guitars. It made them sound incredible.
 
Maybe in the new video you can demonstrate this using breverb.
 
Sign me up for your new video when it is released

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#6
Beepster
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 13:52:52 (permalink)
Ha! I've been doing exactly this on my current adventure. I do the low pass (and hi pass), a hi mid notch then bring back some clarity/definition in the bus. Makes a big difference.
 
Also something for the hi gain seekers... try setting the sim to not have as much distortion and clone it. Having the sim working twice with lower gain/distortion settings seems to reign in the squishy squashies (Danny hates when I call them that... lol) but fills out the distortion more.
 
Works for me anyway.
 
And as far as TH2... don't forget about the Varifire knob. That thing is like golden sauce.
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 13:57:46 (permalink)
This is a great technique. I read your book for guitarist and have been using this method ever since. Although, I combine the amp sim track with an amped track. I like how fat the amped track is but adding the amp sim track brings in more clarity.
 
I think all amp sims are the same. I use Pod Farm 2 and even by itself, it's just as good as any other. Even just using the stock amp sim from Cakewal, as you described in your book, can give you good results.

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Marcus Curtis
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 14:00:33 (permalink)
Beepster
 
 
And as far as TH2... don't forget about the Varifire knob. That thing is like golden sauce.




The varifire knob is one of my favorite features. awesome goldeness

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TheSteven
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 14:02:30 (permalink)
Thanks for the tip. 
Definitely something to check out next time I wrestle with my amp sims.
 
Possible tip:
Don't know if this applies to other amp sims but with Line6 Pod Farm you have to watch your input levels (level going into VST).
When using their DI (GearBox DI Gold) I thought that the recorded levels were a bit on the low side. When I used another DI to record at hotter levels the plug-in had problems i.e. tone went to crap. Same thing if I dropped an effect in the FX bin in front of Pod Farm that boosted the gain.
 
Line 6 has had several updates since the last time I ran into this problem so possibly it's a non-issue at this point. But something to keep in mind if your amp sims seem to be fighting you.
 
Another tip:
With Humbuckers you can sometimes get better definition by rolling off some of the low end before the plug-in (or amp).
 
From ToneFiend http://tonefiend.com/guitar/whats-favorite-mod/
(cool site for Guitar as well as DYI mods)
ToneFiend
It seems especially relevant for drop-tuned and 7-string metal players who realize you must sometimes cut a little bass to keep the lowest register tight and articulate.

 
 

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stevec
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/18 14:18:23 (permalink)
Guitarpima
This is a great technique.



+1...   I've been cutting select frequencies after the amp sim for a while now, but never before.   Cool!
 
 

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lawajava
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 15:11:06 (permalink)
Craig - really like this tip. If you end up doing a new tutorial this would be a great topic to demonstrate as you have in your other tutorials.

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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 19:02:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2013/11/21 19:06:51
Good stuff Craig. A few things I'd like to mention/add if you don't mind?
 
I beta test for a few plug companies and have really put some insane time into these things. One of the most helpful things I have ever done was to condition the signal BEFORE you literally go into the plugin. One of the things I hate about plug amp sims is they just do not feel like real amps to me no matter which one you use. (Although I think AcmeBarGig "Headcase" is one of the best as far as the feel option goes)
 
The other thing that has always bothered me was you can get insane gain out of these plugs yet very little sustain. I'm not talking about cranking up your monitors to the point of feedback, I'm saying these things are hurting in the sustain area to where they just seem fake.
 
To eliminate both of those problems, you can insert something into your line to bring things to life a bit. Some guys have those cool DI boxes that do more than just DI while others will DI and then run into a compressor. I like that method the best as well as inserting a pedal in line like a Ibanez Tube Screamer or a Boss Compressor Sustainer (the blue one)
 
Now the key here is NOT to use the pedals for drive/distortion but to boost a little. For example, if we were using the TS, we'd start with all the knobs off, crank the level/output of the pedal all the way up or until it hisses (that's another cool thing...the TC and the CompSustainer are very low noise used this way) and either leave it as is, or slightly increase the gain on the TS IF you absolutely need it. Me personally, I never raise the gain. I may mess with the tone knob on the TS and may drop the output/level to 3/4....but I usually leave the gain set to off.
 
The same with the CompSustainer. Level all the way up, gain all the way down, set sustain, tone and attack to taste while trying to keep them all as low as possible. The little boost here is us simulating what would be sort of happening in the input of an amp. When we play into an amp, the signal that goes in is buffered/slightly conditioned so that when it hits the amp, it's alive and full of energy. These amp sims lack this liveliness and energy to me...so these little tricks can really bring them to life.
 
So to recap, it's nice to have a hardware compressor handy to keep your DI signal in check. Sometimes this compressor is good first in the chain, other times it's better when it is second in the chain AFTER the pedal. The pedal just boosts the signal a little bit which in turn gives you actual sustain that won't die out on you as fast. I posted something on this forum a few years back showing you how it can make a difference for the better. It just gives you that little extra "zip" in the tone when using sims and will make a HUGE difference in note hold sustain. That I promise you. It will also force you to use less gain on the actual plugin which will make for a tighter driven sound.
 
A +1 here on Craig's advice on the low pass. However, (and this isn't meant to go against you Craig, I swear!) us guys that are into the insane high gain stuff wouldn't get the cut we needed if we low passed to 5k. The tones guys like us need start to get their buzz character at 4-5k so if you low pass that far down, you will definitely notice a honky, lack of sizzle type sound that just may not fit thar "heavy" style of music. For classic rock, jazz fusion, country, light gain and just about anything else, the low pass method in that range is essential. But for we that are rock monsters with gain that rips the flesh off of your bones, you may want to low pass at around 7-9k instead. Most people might say "you won't even hear it Danny!" Oh yes you will...it will take the excessive "sizzle" that you DON'T need out of the sound while still giving you that presence to cut through the mix.
 
At the end of the day, everything is subjective because it will depend on the individual, the gear, the sound chosen, the conviction applied to the instrument...the list goes on and on. A low pass down to 4k may work good for me but may be horrible for someone else. My advice on stuff like this is to try NOT to look at your controls when doing this and see where you end up. When I high pass, I'm not paying attention to the low end frequency I end up at. I high pass until the low end blanket disappears from my guitar tone. When I low pass, I try not to look at the frequency. I low pass until the abrasiveness leaves the sound while still keeping a little "zip" in the tone so it cuts through. :) At any rate, I hope some of this is helpful and adds to Craig's awesome and most appreciated advice. :)
 
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John T
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 19:15:24 (permalink)
Excellent stuff. I've been grappling with salvaging a truly horrible amp tone I recorded recently. The guy's amp was basically dying during the session (and probably didn't sound so great in its youth), so I took a DI at the same time, as I knew I'd need it. This thread is going to save my bacon on this mix, I reckon.
 
I've never done the low pass thing. I've done narrow notching before the amp sim, but yeah, just getting on with it and getting rid of all the unnecessary stuff makes perfect sense. And that compressor tip is gold. GOLD I tell you.

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Danny Danzi
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 20:18:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2013/11/21 20:29:25
John, just be careful with the hardware compressor. What I didn't mention in my post about the compressor (not to be cornfused with the compressor sustainer pedal) is that we just want to condition the signal to keep it sane without literally comping the sound. Too much of that can ruin the track as you since we're doing things destructively at this point.
 
All you want to do is keep the little peaks and valleys of the DI in check with the compressor. (or if you run the compressor last and have a pedal in between, you'd be comping as an "entity" at that point...so you'd want to be even more careful) Maybe a 1:5 or 2:1 ratio with no more than about -2 dB gain reduction at -6 dB peak going in. If you send in at a lower signal level, you'll of course want to use a little more compression going in because the lower input won't push the comp at all using those settings.
 
But for at -6 I usually get away with a gentle comp between 1:5 and 2:1 using soft-knee where -2 gain removal flickers from time to time. It's amazing how much it makes a difference. As a matter of fact, I use that same hardware compression setting for every guitar sound I send into my pc and just tweak it for the style. It looks nice once it's printed too. I know that's meaningless to say...lol...but honest, the appearance just looks healthy and sounds really good and we're not totally ruining anything destructively. :) Good luck with that tone you're working on.
 
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Anderton
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 20:40:18 (permalink)
TheSteven
Possible tip:
Don't know if this applies to other amp sims but with Line6 Pod Farm you have to watch your input levels (level going into VST).



Actually this is a great tip, and I'll take it one step further...I play with a thumb pick, heavy gauge strings, and relatively high output pickups, so I hit amp sims pretty hard. I found turning down the "drive" control on POD preset amps cleaned up the sound and gave a much better overall sound.

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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 20:43:54 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 
The other thing that has always bothered me was you can get insane gain out of these plugs yet very little sustain. I'm not talking about cranking up your monitors to the point of feedback, I'm saying these things are hurting in the sustain area to where they just seem fake.




In addition to kudos for more cool tips , I want to address the above. I have a solution that I have submitted to TASCAM for their inclusion in future interfaces...we'll see what happens.

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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 20:45:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2013/11/21 22:59:30
Oh, and one last thing: With a lot of amp sims, there's something "magic" about a broad cut around 2kHz or so before the amp sim. And don't forget about patching a de-esser before amp sims, it really does make a difference.
 

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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/21 23:02:58 (permalink)
Ah! Interesting. I've been using a de-esser a lot on drum mics lately, to get rid of stray hi hat hat stuff, and here and there on other sounds. You Can Do All Sorts With A De-Esser is my big discovery of 2013, basically. But I hadn't thought of this application.

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bbach
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/22 09:00:42 (permalink)
Does the cabinet of a full range keyboard combo amp act as a low pass filter set at around 5khz ?
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Danny Danzi
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/22 14:05:19 (permalink)
Anderton
Danny Danzi
 
The other thing that has always bothered me was you can get insane gain out of these plugs yet very little sustain. I'm not talking about cranking up your monitors to the point of feedback, I'm saying these things are hurting in the sustain area to where they just seem fake.




In addition to kudos for more cool tips , I want to address the above. I have a solution that I have submitted to TASCAM for their inclusion in future interfaces...we'll see what happens.




Good luck with that one Craig. Please keep us posted...or heck, at least keep ME posted on this. :) Not sure if you ever tried Headcase by ABG but we have an input gain that we've been using for years that has made a bit of a difference. It compensates for the drive that may be lacking to push the amp sim, thus giving the sustain area a little more kick. In our latest version, it comes by way of a 10 second test.
 
You press a button, play and it measures how much output is coming from your pups and literally makes internal adjustments so that the signal is just right for the plug. The downside of this is, if you play super heavy with your pick hand, the plug receives that signal as a strong one and may reduce the internal gain. If you play super light, it will compensate by adding more internal gain. This internal gain is set up to drive BEFORE sound is sent into the plug, so it's definitely been a useful tool. In our last version, we allowed the user to adjust this manually. I voted to keep that in but the owner was happier with it the other way. At any rate, this is a golden discussion. Thanks for all you do and share with us and I'm glad I didn't offend you with the extra info that I shared. :)
 
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rsinger
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/22 14:36:18 (permalink)
bbach
Does the cabinet of a full range keyboard combo amp act as a low pass filter set at around 5khz ?



No, I'd expect full range to be around 80 - 15k Hz or wider.

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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 15:45:08 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 
[snip]
One of the things I hate about plug amp sims is they just do not feel like real amps to me no matter which one you use.



I agree.
 
Danny Danzi
 
[snip]
To eliminate both of those problems, you can insert something into your line to bring things to life a bit. Some guys have those cool DI boxes that do more than just DI while others will DI and then run into a compressor. I like that method the best as well as inserting a pedal in line like a Ibanez Tube Screamer or a Boss Compressor Sustainer (the blue one)
 
[snip]

 
Along those lines I've been using a guitar preamp. I started off using the effects out of one of my amps, but I've also dusted off my ADA MP-1 and have been using that as well. Since my concern is response/feel I keep the tone pretty neutral. As a guitarist I've been happy with the results. YMMV.
 
I haven't been EQing or anything before going into the sims (TH2 & Scuffham), but I'm going to play around with that.
 
Robert

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#23
Danny Danzi
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 17:27:56 (permalink)
rsinger
Along those lines I've been using a guitar preamp. I started off using the effects out of one of my amps, but I've also dusted off my ADA MP-1 and have been using that as well. Since my concern is response/feel I keep the tone pretty neutral. As a guitarist I've been happy with the results. YMMV.
 
I haven't been EQing or anything before going into the sims (TH2 & Scuffham), but I'm going to play around with that.
 
Robert




Me as well on the pre-amp. It also works as a great DI. I just bypass it OR, run a little compression out of it which works really well too. Hahaha....I remember the MP-1. What a great piece. They should have combined the dirty tones of the MP-1 and the clean tones of the MP-2 and made a MP-.....nah, someone would have gotten sued. LOL! :)
 
Something about those old dinosaur pre-'s that just make an incredible difference especially if you hybrid them. I'm partial to a few old, custom modified Digitech 2101's that work really well for me. I've since bitten the bullet this September and purchased the AxeFxII. Though it's pricey and not in everyone's budget, I sincerely believe every serious guitarist should have one. Between the tone matching and all the killer amp models, effects, cab modeling and everything else, I just can't see the need for anything else at this point for the rest of my life. :)
 
-Danny

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#24
clintmartin
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 20:23:33 (permalink)
Another great idea for a video! I have tried them all and Amplitube is by far my favorite (very subjective). I use the fx chain module and insert Amplitube, Valhalla Ubermod, VintageVerb and Channel tools into it. I usually use the Tape sim and A-type console emulation for guitars. N-type if it sounds muddy. Then save as a Pro-channel preset my different guitar rigs. I high pass and low pass everything as well. I wish the Quad curve had mid/side processing, but I use Pro-Q when I need that.

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#25
Anderton
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 21:26:43 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
I'm glad I didn't offend you with the extra info that I shared. :)
 
-Danny



Are you serious?!?!? Your contributions are very much appreciated! Good info is good info and always welcome. I come here to learn, too.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#26
Anderton
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 21:30:50 (permalink)
bbach
Does the cabinet of a full range keyboard combo amp act as a low pass filter set at around 5khz ?



I started using keyboard amps for guitar in 1968, and have used only flat response systems for guitar ever since. I get "my sound" before the amplifier, and that way I can use the same sounds on stage or in the studio without having to change anything. (Gibson's FBX was sort of the culmination of this approach for me, because then the sounds were in the guitar and that removed one more variable from the signal chain.)

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#27
Anderton
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/23 21:34:20 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
rsinger
Along those lines I've been using a guitar preamp. I started off using the effects out of one of my amps, but I've also dusted off my ADA MP-1 and have been using that as well. Since my concern is response/feel I keep the tone pretty neutral. As a guitarist I've been happy with the results. YMMV.
 
I haven't been EQing or anything before going into the sims (TH2 & Scuffham), but I'm going to play around with that.
 
Robert




Me as well on the pre-amp. It also works as a great DI. I just bypass it OR, run a little compression out of it which works really well too.
 
-Danny




More good tips...I've found that running a tube preamp into an amp sim with only the cab (no preamp or amp) can sound really good. I did an article for Harmony Central that has a ton of audio examples with what happens when you plug an Orange amp preamp into various amp sim cabs.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#28
rsinger
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/24 14:20:38 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
[snip]
I've since bitten the bullet this September and purchased the AxeFxII. Though it's pricey and not in everyone's budget, I sincerely believe every serious guitarist should have one. Between the tone matching and all the killer amp models, effects, cab modeling and everything else, I just can't see the need for anything else at this point for the rest of my life. :)



I've had my eye on both the AxeFxII and the Kemper. They look like nice rigs. They're in my budget, but I'm still exploring amp sims - there are a lot of variations and they seem to be getting pretty good.
 

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#29
rsinger
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Re: [Tip] Sweeter TH2 Sounds 2013/11/24 14:41:58 (permalink)
Anderton
More good tips...I've found that running a tube preamp into an amp sim with only the cab (no preamp or amp) can sound really good. I did an article for Harmony Central that has a ton of audio examples with what happens when you plug an Orange amp preamp into various amp sim cabs.


 
Thanks for the link, that's a good article and more good ideas! I hadn't thought about using multiple cabs (bright & dark). One sound I like is multiple amps - I'll run an Aiken Invader (Marshall clone) in parallel with a Victoria 508 (Fender Tweed clone). I'll have to try that with some amp sims. I also like the article that is linked to about notch filtering. I should have been reading your articles. I also use a VG-99 & GR-55 and most of these ideas are applicable to them as well. 
 
Robert

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#30
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