Tips on Drumset mixing

Anybody wanna give me advice on how to make the (Session Drummer 3) drums stand out more? I'm making a slow/mello metal song (trying to imitate Isis somewhat) and the drums, such as the kick, just doesn't seem to have the "umpf" i'm looking for, especially when I try to listen to the song through ordinary earphones. I tried experimenting with the PX64 PercussionStrip and I just have no clue as to what i'm doing. The presets are okay but not exactly what I want and when I mess with the equalizer the volume meter will shoot up to the red area (which is something to avoid right?). Yet experimenting with the Shaper seems to be a step in the right direction... Also, is there a way where I can adjust each individual drum sound using the PX64 without having to mess with the entire set? Any help would be much appreciated. Also, i'm digging this subforum for noobs. Wish it was here earlier lol.

KahL


Anybody wanna give me advice on how to make the (Session Drummer 3) drums stand out more? I'm making a slow/mello metal song (trying to imitate Isis somewhat) and the drums, such as the kick, just doesn't seem to have the "umpf" i'm looking for, especially when I try to listen to the song through ordinary earphones. I tried experimenting with the PX64 PercussionStrip and I just have no clue as to what i'm doing. The presets are okay but not exactly what I want and when I mess with the equalizer the volume meter will shoot up to the red area (which is something to avoid right?). Yet experimenting with the Shaper seems to be a step in the right direction... Also, is there a way where I can adjust each individual drum sound using the PX64 without having to mess with the entire set? Any help would be much appreciated. Also, i'm digging this subforum for noobs. Wish it was here earlier lol.

This may be of some interest/use to you ...
 
My own experience is that when using sample-based is that the paradigm often stated by many 'audio' books, where they say the job is to make things "bigger", is misleading in the sense that it suggest 'adding' to the sound.
 
Let's take a kick drum sample as an example.  Just for the heck of it, try this:
 
Using the Sonitus inline EQ,  set up a parametric filter (use band 2 for now) to about 540Hz.  Use a bandwith (Q) of about 4.9.  Now start to attentuate (reduce) the gain of that band ... maybe about -3db.   Listen carefully -- and adjust to taste.
 
Now compress the kick if you want (even though it's a sample) but regardless, bring the level up to compensate for the gain reduction in the 540HZ band.
 
What you should notice, depending on the sample, and if 540Hz is a good center frequency, is that the sound of the kick gets nicer.  Bigger actually - even though you reduce gain in a band (remember to gain compensate at the fader level).
 
If this works for you (as it often does for kicks), the result is this: 
If there's TOO much frequency weight in the lower mid range, reducing allows the other frequencies of the kick to balance out.  When gain compensating (ie, bringing the overall level back up), the kick actually gets bigger because the frequencies are more balanced.
 
There is no frequency to adjust that works for all situations.  I suggest 540Hz as a starting point just to get familiar with the concept.
 
There are certain frequency "ranges" that play a big role in sound shaping.  And that's really what it's all about.
 
So my point is - one way to make things seem bigger is to actually attenuate the frequencies that cause an imbalance or to create a 'focal point' for the specific sound.  Then when you bring the levels back up, they don't take up space with an imbalance.
 
Also - many may say you don't need to compress samples.  I disagree usually.  It's still a 'sound'.  If it's the 'right' sound, fine; but that's rare.  Mixing requires many adjustments to everything.   And compression and EQ are the most complex tools but also the ones that have the greatest affect overall.
 
So give this a try ... ie, reducing certain frequencies to balance it out or to get a focal point in the sound, then see how it 'sits' in the mix.  Apply this to other areas as well in drums.
Less really is MORE in this case lol.
 
 

Thing with session drummer is what ever you put on the fx you put on the channel, it will affect all the sounds(would like to see maybe an eq on the channels in SD3), beat scape is worth loading drum sounds into, at least you can have fx/processing for individual sounds

Yep, the Mixing Audio book by Roey Izhaki is definitely one that everyone should have on their studio bookshelf... http://digifreq.com/?IzhakiMixing

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/  - http://www.musictechshop.com/ - http://www.cooltechshop.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

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Grem


That was a nice lesson! I am reading Mixing Audio:Concepts, Practices And Tools right now. And have begun to realize how very complex mixing is. I am about half way through the book. I haven't gotten to the Techniques part yet. But this really opened my eyes.

I always knew to cut frequencies. I just haven't learned which ones for given situation. But what I found from this little lesson is sweet.

Now you say you that you just picked that frequency. Was that just a number you randomly wrote? Or is that from experience? The answer to this will help me a lot.

Grem,
 
The 540Hz is not that random.  Every instrument/sound has a frequency range/spectrum.   For Kick drums in general, the lower midrange frequencies tend to muddy up the sound.  I only said 540Hz to play with because it will reveal a tonal change immediately identifiable to most people's ears.
 
There has long been established a range of frequencies (often called "The Magic Frequencies") that have the most direct consequence to sounds when boosted or attentuated.  But there's really nothing magic about them.  They simply "effect/affect" either the fundamentals or the harmonics of a sound.
 
But nothing is that simple, of course.  Especially when it comes to mixing.  And given that there are literally thousands of potential choices to make when EQ'ing anything, the more one understands what ranges have the most effect and why, the better one can become at managing / adjusting  / balancing frequencies and mixing.
 
I'm not an expert, in my opinion, but I have had enough experience to at least 'know' why some frequencies affect sounds in various ways.  Anyone can learn that, really (over time).
 
But, with the Kick as an example ...  you may find that cutting at 532Hz works better than 547Hz, or that you also need to cut in the 200-300HZ range, and so on.   There's not magic bullet in mixing.  It takes time and lots of experimenting.  And the the better one trains the ear (ear-training does help) and the more knowledge of these areas, the quicker and hopefully better one can get a great mix going.
 
 

ba_midi
 
The 540Hz is not that random.  Every instrument/sound has a frequency range/spectrum.   

This helps a lot. It just never occured to me to cut some EQ, then put some compression on it to bring the overall volume up.

 
I'm not an expert, in my opinion, but I have had enough experience to at least 'know' why some frequencies affect sounds in various ways.  Anyone can learn that, really (over time).
 

This is what I am lacking. Hands on experience. And I know this so I got 3 books that others have recommended.  
 

But, with the Kick as an example ...  you may find that cutting at 532Hz works better than 547Hz, or that you also need to cut in the 200-300HZ range, and so on. 

Funny you say this. I was just experimenting after doing the little lesson and noticed that cutting in the 250h range was giving me some good results. I had to leave to go to work so I couldn't finish. But apparently I'm learning!!!

 There's not magic bullet in mixing.  It takes time and lots of experimenting. 
 

Yeah yeah yeah I want it all right now!!!! : ) JK
 
I really was looking for the majic button/preset/plug. I'll admit it. But about one third of the way through that first book I am reading it sunk in this thick skulll: There ain't no majic anything!!!!

And the the better one trains the ear (ear-training does help) and the more knowledge of these areas, the quicker and hopefully better one can get a great mix going.
 

I'll keep reading the books! But I am seriously thinking of getting someone to do my mixing and mastering for me. I realize I am getting bogged down in all this. I just wanted to make music!!!
 
I don't know what's more appealing, the technical aspect of playing, or producing!!!
 
Thanks Billy
  
 

Grem

ba_midi
 
The 540Hz is not that random.  Every instrument/sound has a frequency range/spectrum.   

This helps a lot. It just never occured to me to cut some EQ, then put some compression on it to bring the overall volume up.

 
I'm not an expert, in my opinion, but I have had enough experience to at least 'know' why some frequencies affect sounds in various ways.  Anyone can learn that, really (over time).
 

This is what I am lacking. Hands on experience. And I know this so I got 3 books that others have recommended.  
 

But, with the Kick as an example ...  you may find that cutting at 532Hz works better than 547Hz, or that you also need to cut in the 200-300HZ range, and so on. 

Funny you say this. I was just experimenting after doing the little lesson and noticed that cutting in the 250h range was giving me some good results. I had to leave to go to work so I couldn't finish. But apparently I'm learning!!!

 There's not magic bullet in mixing.  It takes time and lots of experimenting. 
 

Yeah yeah yeah I want it all right now!!!! : ) JK
 
I really was looking for the majic button/preset/plug. I'll admit it. But about one third of the way through that first book I am reading it sunk in this thick skulll: There ain't no majic anything!!!!

And the the better one trains the ear (ear-training does help) and the more knowledge of these areas, the quicker and hopefully better one can get a great mix going.
 

I'll keep reading the books! But I am seriously thinking of getting someone to do my mixing and mastering for me. I realize I am getting bogged down in all this. I just wanted to make music!!!
 
I don't know what's more appealing, the technical aspect of playing, or producing!!!
 
Thanks Billy
  
 

You're more than welcome, Grem.
 
FWIW, I had really stepped away from serious mixing/digging in for awhile because I had left the industry and could not devote proper time to it.  So a lot of tracks I did were more like quickies without the effort it really takes to make them great or to sound great.
 
Once I started to dig back in, it meant studying harder, listening harder (ie, ear training again), and learning to use the tools well.   When I was in the biz full time I had the benefit of working with great engineers who took care of "all that stuff" for me.   Now, being fully ITB (In The Box) and doing everything myself, the challenges are great, but the learning and growing is very rewarding.
 
On my own music site, I've left up a lot of my older tracks.  It's easy to hear the difference.   And I've left them there to remind me just how important it is to 'dig in', and to contrast for myself (as well as others) that growth is possible.
 
I still have long way to go before I think I've got it down well enough (if there really is such a state), but I know I'm making progress - as can anyone who gets serious about it.
 
But to be clear about the examples I gave you - the real trick is not just to experiment (that IS important), but to try to develop a real sense of knowledge of how frequencies affect sound, and why.   There's no substitue for experience, but learning is the path to get there.
 
Enjoy and make good music ;)
 

 

Bigdogs


You can send each drum/cymbal to its own channel. When you insert SD3, instead of choosing simple instrument track, choose all synth audio outputs. This setups up a channel for each SD3 output. Then in the SD3 mixer, you choose the track for each channel using the combo boxes at the bottom.

++1. Also I would suggest that you create a new DRUMS bus and route all of the drum channels to it, gives you a lot more control. Place everything in an instrument folder so you can collapse it when you aren't specifically working on the drums.

KahL


I must've been doing something wrong or maybe my lack of overall knowledge is affecting it (I just bought Sonar 8 Power to help me with that). But i'm definately looking forward to the

Hi Calvin,

Thanks very much! I hope you enjoy the book.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/  - http://www.musictechshop.com/ - http://www.cooltechshop.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free i2i Stream Wireless Music Pack, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

Other options:

Play your drum part, put a mic in front of your speakers and record the drumpart. Align that with your original tracks. Instant fat.

Parallel compression is also your friend. Read up on that.

KahL


Just regular Klipsch speakers I guess. They are kinda old.

I'm suspicious of your monitoring setup if, in fact, you can't hear a difference using the example.
 
What if you do the same thing, but use 300Hz with the same Q, and then try at 200HZ same Q?
Do you hear any differences?   (Do each separately, not cumulatively please).