2:43AM
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Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
Need a little help, perhaps from those using electronic drum machines such as the TR-808/909, something else, of if you're like me, the TR-8. Every time I go to use the thing, fitting a pattern into a song, I end up hating how it sounds. I try to process the kicks/snares/hats/etc. with EQ, compression, and some FX here and there, and it still sounds like garbage. Overall, it sticks out like a sore thumb and sounds cheap, unglued, dry, and ugly. What could I be doing wrong? What tips and tricks can be shared to perhaps EQ or compress better? Thanks!
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sharke
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/20 01:49:28
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Try a tape emulator, use a nice convolution ambience reverb, send some of the snare to an amp sim for a little grit, take some of the harsh frequencies (like 2.7-3kHz) out of the hats etc. Just off the top of my head.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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2:43AM
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/20 05:10:04
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Thanks, Sharke. I will try those techniques. Putting an amp sim on the snare sounds like a good one. My go-to saturation plugin of choice is Saturn, and it contains both tape and amp sims. Worth a shot!
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davdud101
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 15:47:50
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What kind of music are you producing? Surely something that lends itself to the use of TR-8 sounds? I guess if you're going for an old-school They Might Be Giants, alt-rock-meets-garage-indie-childrens-band sound, it'd work, but (obviously) the style of music and what you're hearing in your head would determine what work best. IMOX (my new acronym for "in my own experience", use it or lose it! :D ), if I can HEAR it in the mix, then usually the basic, out-of-the-box settings and sounds that apply to what I'm adding function well as a placeholder until I get something concrete that mirrors EXACTLY what's in my head. Otherwise, when throwing things at the wall to see what sticks, sometimes it pays to just try different samples or take it back to the drawing board. just IMOX, of course 
Mics: MXL 990, MXL R80, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48, iSK Starlight Cans: Hifiman HE4XX, AKG M220 Gear: Cakewalk BBL - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49 DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
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batsbrew
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 15:50:24
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2:43AM
Need a little help, perhaps from those using electronic drum machines such as the TR-808/909, something else, of if you're like me, the TR-8. Every time I go to use the thing, fitting a pattern into a song, I end up hating how it sounds. I try to process the kicks/snares/hats/etc. with EQ, compression, and some FX here and there, and it still sounds like garbage. Overall, it sticks out like a sore thumb and sounds cheap, unglued, dry, and ugly. What could I be doing wrong? What tips and tricks can be shared to perhaps EQ or compress better? Thanks!
if it was me, i'd quit banging my head against the wall, and get a program like ezdrummer 2 or superior drummer..... if you like the electronic sounds, they've got tons of them if you are serious, about drum sounds, it's an easy decision.
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davdud101
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 16:07:09
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batsbrew
2:43AM
Need a little help, perhaps from those using electronic drum machines such as the TR-808/909, something else, of if you're like me, the TR-8. Every time I go to use the thing, fitting a pattern into a song, I end up hating how it sounds. I try to process the kicks/snares/hats/etc. with EQ, compression, and some FX here and there, and it still sounds like garbage. Overall, it sticks out like a sore thumb and sounds cheap, unglued, dry, and ugly. What could I be doing wrong? What tips and tricks can be shared to perhaps EQ or compress better? Thanks!
if it was me,
i'd quit banging my head against the wall,
and get a program like ezdrummer 2 or superior drummer.....
if you like the electronic sounds,
they've got tons of them
if you are serious, about drum sounds,
it's an easy decision.
Bingo. All the variations on TR-8, -808, -909, -707, WHATEVER types of sounds you could want beyond drum machines and into real samples of recorded drums are all available in this type of software, without a lot of the hassle that comes with external equipment - mostly just added flexibility. I've actually been able to get a lot of mileage out of SessionDrummer, particularly with its drag-and-drop features and abilities for multiple outputs so each "drum" can be processed separately from the others.
Mics: MXL 990, MXL R80, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48, iSK Starlight Cans: Hifiman HE4XX, AKG M220 Gear: Cakewalk BBL - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49 DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
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jamesg1213
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 16:53:01
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Sometimes the sound of a drum machine can work nicely if it's right up front in the mix. It can give a cool atmosphere to a track. Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight. Rather than trying to get it to 'blend in', use it for what it is.
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markno999
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 17:48:17
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Along the lines of the above suggestions, if you are looking for Vintage Drum machines Arturia Spark Vintage Drum Machines has them all, and, it includes all the sequences that shipped with the drum machines. These sequences can be dragged out as MIDI. As James says, Genesis used drum machines frequently in their music as did many others in the 80's, 90's and beyond. The Mama drums, for example, are a Linn Drum Machine run through a guitar amp at the edge of break-up.
The Toontracks Electronic Kits are good too but more modern sounding if that is what you are looking for.
Regards
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sharke
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 23:46:15
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jamesg1213
Sometimes the sound of a drum machine can work nicely if it's right up front in the mix. It can give a cool atmosphere to a track. Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight. Rather than trying to get it to 'blend in', use it for what it is.
Or the ultimate example:
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 23:48:11
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If you're looking for some absolutely fantastic synthesized drum samples check out the Driven Machine Drums bundle. I've bought a couple of them over the last few years - he puts them together with some very nice analog gear and only sells a limited run of each bundle. They're all ready to go and sound fantastic in a mix with the minimum of processing: http://www.drivenmachinedrums.com/
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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batsbrew
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/22 23:55:21
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jamesg1213
Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight.
well, those were LINN DRUMS!! not your average bear. and i hated that sound. and still do.
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Kamikaze
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/23 01:40:40
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Not that I think this thread is about drum machine recommendations, but it's a fun side topic.
I used to have a the Novation Drumstation, that was cool. I used to mix that with drums from a and Quadrasynth Rack and use guitar pedals to create DnB beats. I picked up XLN's Reel Machines because of those days, but I haven't used it enough to voice and opinion.
Along the same lines as Sharke's putting it through and Ampifier, SonicCouture did that with their drum samples and and recorded from a room. That looks a great pack, especially as it goes on Sale and is Kontact Player too. I beleive Zo picked it up and was blown away by how friendly it was t pay and great sounding.
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jamesg1213
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/23 07:17:50
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batsbrew
jamesg1213
Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight.
well,
those were LINN DRUMS!!
not your average bear.
and i hated that sound.
and still do.
'In The Air Tonight' was a Roland CR-78. ...and, OK then... 
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tlw
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/24 03:46:32
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The 808, 909 and the rest of the Roland machines were all pretty basic and made pretty basic sounds. We’re used to hearing them after eq and compression and other processing. I can get a pretty good drum part out of my Machinedrum but it’s synthesis, programming and effects capabilities are way beyond what the old Roland machines could do. There’s a three part series of Point Blank videos with James Wilshire about making drum parts using hardware and DAWs in combination. You might find it worth a look. It starts here - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ct8kHZe4wPIIgnore the idiot in the hat, the videos were made around Christmas time. Incidentally the recent Roland “Boutique reissues” of their old drum machines aren't analogue, they use digital sampling. d16 do good plugins that model the synthesis of the original hardware, are far cheaper than the modern Roland stuff and sound pretty good.
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sharke
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/24 07:40:31
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Anyone thinking of synthesizing their drums from scratch might want to give Tremor a whirl. It's a multi-voice synth with oscillators and controls specifically designed for creating electronic drums and you can get some great sounds from it, process them with effects and sequence them with its pattern sequencer. Really great product, shame it's not being developed any more.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Kamikaze
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/24 08:25:15
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I just watched a Tremor video, but I was expecting more. It's looked no more than a Novation Drumstation with a stepsequncer, then half way through he says 'then when you press on the synth buttom' the wow, I had a look for something like this a while back, and some looked interesting, but this looks fantastic. Geist is in a sale at the moment, and after you recommendations I've thought about it a few times, it goes on sale. I'll be following both of these now I guess. EDIT: That Step Sequencer! EDIT 2: Does it use iLok or anything else that's funky? I can't see on their page
post edited by Kamikaze - 2018/02/24 13:21:09
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sharke
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/25 00:01:42
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Nope no iLok. The only trouble I've ever had with Tremor is the very occasional crash. It runs in standalone as well btw. Great if you want to just fire something up and play with some beats without having to start a project. There's some really great kits included but it is loads of fun making your own.
Geist is great but Geist 2 never gelled with me. It has lots of problems and isn't as well designed as the first one. Then development of it slowed to a crawl with no updates for a year. Maybe ROLI acquiring fxpansion had something to do with it, but people on the forums aren't happy. I still love Geist 1 though and use it all the time. I don't know, maybe if you've never used Geist you might get on a little better with Geist 2.
I love the step sequencer in Tremor, especially how you can set different number of steps for each lane to get some polyrhythms going.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Kamikaze
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/25 00:23:35
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sharke
I love the step sequencer in Tremor, especially how you can set different number of steps for each lane to get some polyrhythms going.
Yeah, that was the point I Edited my post. It's amazing how something so simple can do something so unique and powerful. I love Sonars Step Sequencer and there are some tweaks (like being able to open more than one row at the time) that I'd think would help me a lot, but it's integration int Sonar is great (I bounce between Step Sequencer and AD2 Transfrom tool (for dynamics) effortlessly. But ther have been critical of it, but never clearly why. I wuld lve t see that function in Sonars. I will need to Demo this t make sure my system copes
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abacab
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/25 02:22:14
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jamesg1213
Sometimes the sound of a drum machine can work nicely if it's right up front in the mix. It can give a cool atmosphere to a track. Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight. Rather than trying to get it to 'blend in', use it for what it is.
Phil Collins, best human drum machine ever! Genesis - Live At Wembley Stadium (1987) ...the legendary duet with Phil and Chester: Drum Duet (Chester Thompson And Phil Collins) [tube] http://youtu.be/A3Q8KOkimE0?t=1h26m[/tube]
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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scook
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/25 03:10:44
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/02/25 15:48:07
I have seen that performance before. It wasn't the later Genesis or even the (IMO better) Gabriel-era Genesis that convinced me Collins was more than a pretty face, it was Brand X. Of course, he had some decent helpers in that band.
apologies to the OP for the derailment
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jamesg1213
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/02/25 08:13:34
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abacab
jamesg1213
Sometimes the sound of a drum machine can work nicely if it's right up front in the mix. It can give a cool atmosphere to a track. Genesis/Phil Collins used drum machines a lot, songs like Mama or In The Air Tonight. Rather than trying to get it to 'blend in', use it for what it is.
Phil Collins, best human drum machine ever!
Genesis - Live At Wembley Stadium (1987)
...the legendary duet with Phil and Chester:
Drum Duet (Chester Thompson And Phil Collins)
[tube]http://youtu.be/A3Q8KOkimE0?t=1h26m
[/tube]
I was at that show! To be honest having seen Gabriel a week or two earlier on his 'So' tour, Genesis bored me a bit, especially the dreadful 'Blues Brothers' medley at the end. Not knocking Phil's drumming though, he was a master, and Chester still is.
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2:43AM
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/03/11 03:15:26
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Really appreciate everyone's input, guys. Thanks. When I get a chance again, I plan on going through this thread once more and sit down with the TR-8, and a bunch of plugins, and a BIG cup of coffee. Overall, I had a chance to experiment shortly after Sharke's first suggestion, and I did manage to get the TR-8 to sound better. With the type of music that I prefer to make, which is somewhere in the dark corner of ambient and downtempo techno. It seems that the trick for it to remain subtle. I try to follow and create music along the lines of my favorite artists: Solar Fields, Scann-Tec, Aes Dana, and basically anything under the Ultimae label. However, these dudes are LIGHT-YEARS ahead of me...well, they are professionals, duh!  Critically listening to their tracks reveals that their rhythms are mostly comprised of 808 and 909 sounds, but seemingly not over-processed. Tweaking the TR-8's controls, I can mimic the sounds almost spot on with minimal treatments. So it's almost as if the sounds are pretty dry. But when tossed into my tracks, then it all goes to Hell. I guess I got a lot of work to do! I've also been experimenting with some gritty, external reverb units like the MicroverbIII and the MidiverbII, and a little gritty ambience goes a long way. I can see why these units were popular back in the day.
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tomixornot
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/03/11 06:22:29
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In my previous band, I transcribed a lot of 60s - 80s tunes, and reprogram into Roland R8. What I found is, there is a main pattern theme, but within this (especially on drum machine based tunes), there are variations to keep different verses interesting. Copying a main pattern and add extra triangles, claps, etc.
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zimou13
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Re: Tips on Fitting Drum Machines into a Mix?
2018/03/11 12:04:20
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For example, if the sample sounds like it was recorded to a 15ips tape machine with a live band going straight through a console, and the drums are coming from a drum machine, synth, or stock DAW drum samples, chances are the context won’t make sense.
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