Anderton
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To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
...here's a little story. It’s the early 90s, and you’re about to do your first album. Amazingly, you’re given a price of a mere $4,000 to record an album from start to finish—with unlimited studio time!—in a world-class recording facility. You can’t believe your good fortune. You walk into the studio, and see two 48-track Sony DASH machine synched together for a whopping 96 tracks, feeding into a giant console with more channels than you can count. What’s more, there’s per-channel automation with moving faders and behind the console is a wall of rack mount gear with dozens of sophisticated signal processors. Even better, there are several guitar amps, cabinets, stomp boxes, and over 20 synthesizers and other keyboards sitting around to help flesh out your tracks further. Of course, you’re thrilled...until the person who let you in says “Well, gotta go. Good luck!” And there you are, all by yourself, with a mountain of equipment you’ve never seen before. You’re not even sure where the on-off switch is. Panic sets in. How can you possibly record, let alone be productive or inspired, under those circumstances? Well, you can’t. But the studio scenario I’ve just described is almost exactly what you get with a Windows computer and Sonar X3. Panic sets in. How can you possibly record, let alone be productive, under those circumstances? Well, you can’t, any more than you can walk into a music store, buy a guitar, and expect to play like Jimi Hendrix by next Tuesday. So it’s no wonder many people are flying blind. How any times have you seen threads like “This software sucks! It doesn’t record!”—until the person realized you need to record-enable a track first. What’s more, today’s musicians have to struggle with operating systems, latency, sample buffers, and more. How are you going to become an instant expert on something like how to apply EQ? People used to accumulate knowledge over time. I see people with hundreds of plug-ins who haven’t mastered any of them. So learn one dynamics processor, one multiband EQ, and one reverb—you’re covered for 90% of your signal processing needs. Learn a program’s basics, like input and outputs. Eventually, you’ll figure out automation. You don’t learn how to play an instrument in a day, a week, or even a year. So cut yourself some slack, and expect to take some time to learn how to “play” a virtual studio, too. It's not Sonar's fault, and it's not your fault. You're not trying to learn a program; you're trying to learn the equivalent of what used to be a multi-million dollar recording studio.
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John
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/15 22:57:33
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You forgot to mention MIDI! Outstanding post Craig. Also I would add of all the DAWs out there I believe Sonar to be the easiest to figure out. In Cubase you don't record to a track you have to setup inputs and record to them. Logic as I recall was all about the "environment". It was everything. Don't understand that and you will be lost. Reaper is one big gigantic menu. Sonar acts like a Windows program and is simple in how it has things organized.
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djwayne
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/15 23:06:03
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I don't find Sonar X3 to be overwhelming at all, because I've been reading Scott Garrigus's series of Power books and they explain the program very well. Many things carry over from one Sonar version to another. I was pretty fluent with X1 and X2, so when X3 came out it was no problem, and everything went very smooth for me. Now I'm planning to take some time and read up on X3...because I know it'll help me get the most out of X3. As with most things in life, you get out what you put in to it...taking some time to learn the program will stick with you for life.
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bayoubill
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/15 23:30:47
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Very well put Mr. Anderson! I myself am taking all the audio/DAW education and working at it about 2 hrs. a day. Including the 4 hours playing and practicing guitar and keyboard that's 6 hrs. Understanding my PC is out of the question. I don't have time for THAT. I like to eat too much and have a date every now and then. There's been many occasions over the past year when friends have dropped by, let themselves in turned on the lights and found me playing with something in the dark because I didn't notice the sun going down. I'm in no hurry. I am learning as best I can and loving every second doing it! I don't mind the mistakes I make recording. I fix those on the next one. I figure one day when I can't play or record any more I'll put on a CD I made and just listen and smile. What a ride!
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Geo524
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/15 23:45:07
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Excellent post Craig. In the beginning I was reluctant to leave my trusty old Akai DPS24 for computer based recording. I had tried Cubase SX1 or 3...? I forget but long story short it was a nightmare and turned me off instantly. Then some time later Sonar LE came bundled with a piece of hardware I bought so I decided to give it another shot. I was amazed at how easy Sonar was to start recording with compared to that version of Cubase. Although I've tried a few other DAWS over the years Sonar remains my number one companion (Well aside form my Wife that is...  ) not only because I think it's great software and sounds incredibly good, but also because of how easy it is to use.
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Echojester
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 01:18:07
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I'm still new to sonar only a few weeks in sofar but I already have experience with working with another daw so it wasn't so overwhelming except for the fact of how different the layout of things was from what I've grown used to.so really it was just about finding we're all the normal basic functions were located.ive got most of the basic stuff down except editing audio the hot keys and mouse clicks are so different from how I've been doing it for the last few years it keeps screwing me up.but other then that I'm in love mixing bussing and organization especially are a dream in sonar in comparison.there are still a lot of things that sonar can't replace for me tho but fortunately my other daw can be opened as vsti :D
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John
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 03:15:13
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I think Mr. Anderton is primarily thinking in terms of new users to DAWs in general.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 05:27:03
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Hey Craig, there's one good book (which I've still got) which helped me enormously when I first started on this road:
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AGBFunkyBassman
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 06:10:26
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In a different post I've described my 'Way Of The DAW' from its humble beginnings using atari ST512 with midi only. Back then it was still bewildering learning midi cc, sysex, patch changes etc, with only the manual (my notator manual was a good 2-3 inches thick if I recall). I can imagine that anyone using the most basic DAW today will encounter a bewlidering array of options.... at least the internet is about to provide places like this, you tube tutorials, et al
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Beepster
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 06:16:58
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☄ Helpfulby Grem 2014/05/16 10:09:37
Pshaw! I recorded, mixed and mastered ten award winning albums the first day I installed Sonar and still had enough time leftover to pleasure my throng of college aged groupies! ;-p
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thomasabarnes
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 07:09:04
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That is a great post, Mr. Craig Anderton! I, especially, like and find applicable, to me, the advice on learning to use plug in effects. I think it's really useful and valuable to have access to video tutorials covering DAW related stuff such as using effects plug ins and even using your DAW software of choice. There really is so much involved in music production through using a PC based DAW, and big parts of it involve being an efficient PC operator/maintenance guy, the audio/recording engineer, as well as assuming the increasingly more common role of being the instrument performer/artist for multiple instruments. Assuming these multiple roles are a manifestation of being even more than a one man band! In view of all of this, I find DAW related video tutorials to be very valuable and very helpful to take on the endeavor of music production using a PC based DAW. I am so glad for video tutorials. :)
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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paulo
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 08:26:10
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He he....... brings back memories of my first days with Sonar (5 I think) . I'm by no means any kind of expert now, still just happily fiddling away at it, and still never used some things, but when I look at those old projects and what I was doing................ ugh......what a mess..........and they sound horrible ! What's worse is that I remember thinking they were pretty good at the time. I'm embarrassed to think that I actually played them to some people......luckily not too many !
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listen
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 08:42:56
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Like serious -way to put it in perspective Craig Personally, I've been at this since 1987 after attending the great "Recording Workshop" in Chillicothe, Ohio and I'm still always learning something new. Yes indeed - it takes time and lot's of hands-on and making mistakes - but keep trying and learning and making more mistakes, etc...
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garrigus
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 08:50:46
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☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2014/05/18 06:58:51
djwayne I don't find Sonar X3 to be overwhelming at all, because I've been reading Scott Garrigus's series of Power books and they explain the program very well. Many things carry over from one Sonar version to another. I was pretty fluent with X1 and X2, so when X3 came out it was no problem, and everything went very smooth for me. Now I'm planning to take some time and read up on X3...because I know it'll help me get the most out of X3. As with most things in life, you get out what you put in to it...taking some time to learn the program will stick with you for life.
Thanks, Wayne! That's true. If you just put the time in, you can learn how to use SONAR. And oh yes... I think everyone should be reading my books. Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com - SONAR X3 Power! - http://garrigus.com/?SonarX3Power* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
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Anderton
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 09:45:15
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John I think Mr. Anderton is primarily thinking in terms of new users to DAWs in general.
Yes, I wrote that because of the many threads where people are having problems with even the most basic elements of getting a DAW to work, like recording or setting interface parameters. A lot of these people are clearly in over their heads, so I wanted them to realize they're undertaking the process of "piloting a 747," and it's going to take a while to figure things out. It seems particularly relevant because Sonar X3 is getting such a strong "buzz" that it's picking up new people to not just the program, but DAWs in general. I thought they might be encouraged by a little perspective on the situation.
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lawp
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 10:06:46
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new users shouldn't be using sonar but something simpler like mc6
sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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robert_e_bone
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 10:13:39
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Edited - I had a bunch of stuff written, but really Mr Anderton's post and the above additional posts already say what I had written, so never mind. Have a BLAST with Sonar. It's a lifetime process of doing, redoing, and learning to do better, with challenges and frustrations and great happiness along the way. Bob Bone
post edited by robert_e_bone - 2014/05/16 10:21:01
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Grem
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 10:31:21
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☄ Helpfulby lawp 2014/05/16 10:54:53
lawp new users shouldn't be using sonar but something simpler like mc6
Yeah I went with CW Professional back in the day. It was one step below Pro Audio. I had no freaking idea!! I had been in bands, ran sound, mastered (so I thought!) all the new digital processors we had in the racks, along with the crossovers. I even had a floor full of pedals. Recording digital audio? No problem! I got this!! Almost 17yrs later, I still haven't got that album finished!! So Craig when you put it that way, I can cut myself some slack. In these last 17 years I have learned so much more about "making" music, a lot about computers, and a lot more about EQ and compression that I ever thought I would ever need!! I wouldn't trade it for nothing in the world. I am a very lucky man.
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Beepster
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 11:12:55
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Having somewhat limited experience with other DAWs (and the previous one I used extensively was very old) I gotta ask the more seasoned/well rounded folks... Am I mistaken in the impression that Sonar X series is a completely different animal compared to some of the other major players? Based on my limited experience and many video tuts that employed these other platforms they all seem to share some very similar themes and procedures. I'm just wondering because I know when I first started with Sonar it seemed like everything was kind of strange and confusing until I learned my way around things. Personally I think once those growing pains are done with it's actually more intuitive, especially with X3, but I feel perhaps that is what trips a lot of newcomers up. I mean we even see a ton of pre X series users flipping out about how radically different things are until they figure things out and start singing it's praises. I may have had a bit of an advantage in the sense that I was, for all real intents and purposes, a n00b so I wasn't breaking years or decades long habits when I made the switch. I think I would freak out much worse than an old timer engineer trying Sonar the first time if I was trying to do stuff on one of the more "traditional" DAWs. A perfect example is how busses are handle in some of those other programs. That crap just looks annoying as all heck. Also Sonar users seem to have a MAJOR advantage as far as free learning resources. The company really does seem to provide what you'd have to spend thousands on college courses to learn about the other programs... and then there is this forum which is the fastest moving of all the company provided discussion boards. Meh... just some thoughts and queries from a "n00b". I've only been at it two years and those two years have been filled with MASSIVE distractions which kept interrupting my studies but I really have no problems accomplishing anything with Sonar now. If I stumble I just do a google search. If that fails I annoy you guys. It always gets done though.
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brundlefly
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 11:43:25
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I have to say, I'm very glad I got involved at Cakewalk for DOS 2.0, and only had to learn a couple dozen new features every year. The few times I've mucked around with other DAWs, I found it surprisingly difficult to adapt to the new layout and logic, even with knowing the underlying technology well. I can't imagine trying to learn a major DAW from scratch while having to learn MIDI, analog and digital audio and possibly PC/interface/driver technology at the same time while also trying to keep the creative juices flowing. For this reason, I highly recommend setting aside a good bit of time to experiment with various features and concepts without the added stress of actually trying to produce a meaningful piece of music at the same time. That way you don't get as aggravated when something doesn't work as expected right away, and when you do need to "use it in anger" later on in the heat of creativity (and/or with people looking over you shoulder or band mates waiting on you), you'll have some idea how to accomplish a specific task. In the same vein, though the PDF Reference Guide is now truly gargantuan, I still recommend scanning through it and maybe reading the parts that interest you more thoroughly so that you'll have a general idea what's possible, where things are and what they're called to help you find things later on.
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Beepster
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 12:06:08
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Hi, Brundle. The user's manual does need some serious editing by someone with the patience and obsessive nature to comb through everything contained in it step by step. There are quite a few inaccuracies and redundancies. I think it could be trimmed down by at least a few hundred pages if not a full thousand. I made it to about page 700 of the X2 manual before life started getting the better of me and I had to stop but even in that first third it was very apparent it could be trimmed, cleaned up and generally explained better. Not to say it isn't useful but it is quite unnecessarily cumbersome. At this point I think Mr. Karl Rose would be the best choice for such a review/edit. That guy just seems to have a knack for peeking in every single corner of things and loves doing it. Some might say "What about Scott? What about Craig? What about Eli?" but they all have more "just get you there" styles and a lot of other crap on their plates. Karl rips crap completely apart without unnecessary opinion, suggestion or subjectivity and it is extremely linear. Not to say "just get you there" isn't a great quality for tutorials or other learning resources and all those dudes are awesome but a manual is meant to be dry, concise and thorough. I think Karl could pull it off and clean things up to make the manual much more useful. But that's JMO.
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Ruben
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 12:15:46
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Good post Craig. I would add an element to your 90s studio scenario. You walk into that great studio, the studio guy says “Well, gotta go. Good luck!”, and you're standing there in horror and panic. Because you have always been the kind of person who has never understood technology! You're standing in front of an incredible collection of technical equipment, and you don't even know why a toaster works and could never fix one. Any time you've tried to fix anything at your house you always have to call a real repairman to fix your "repair" job, and your extent of automotive knowledge ends after you open the hood of your car. So standing in that studio, you don't even know where to start. Now jump to the Sonar comparison - not only are you non-technical, but computers have never made sense to you. You're a pretty good musician, but you had to call a computer tech the first time your desktop went into hibernate, you still have trouble with copy & paste or trying to install a program, and you have no idea where you saved the photo you just downloaded. So you spend several hundred dollars on audio hardware and software only to find that you couldn't get your mic signal into your DAW if your life depended on it. Modern computer recording software comes with an expectation that the user has, at the very least, some basic computer understanding and skills. But not all users or musicians are technical/computer types. And what's interesting is that some of these very non-technical people/musicians, people who would readily admit that they couldn't even repair a bike flat, become incredibly frustrated (with the software and with themselves) when they can't figure out an advanced and complicated program like Sonar. Some musicians are very technically minded and took to computers very quickly, almost effortlessly. Many other talented people are not technical in the least, so naturally it's going to take them longer to figure out a complicated computer program, or to obtain usable results from that program. That's not a negative and doesn't make non-technical folks inferior to techies, it's just the way it is because we all have different strengths/weaknesses. And perhaps it means that, if you know you're a non-technical type, that you cut yourself (and Sonar) a little slack, realizing that it's going to take more time for you to "get it" than your geek neighbor who's already learned 6 different DAWs while recording 12 albums.
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cityrat
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 12:23:30
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Great post. People don't usually *start* learning to fly in a 747 though. They start in a Cessna or something. I think a lot of 'complexity' too many features that get in the way of the 'basics'. Of course users WANT all the features (or think they do) so it's a tough balance. I think one of the big challenges in DAW software is offering enough capability and features and balancing the level of the user interface to not overwhelm. Seems like as soon as the UI gets in the way you really loose that creative energy. Less of an issue if you're producing, more if you're the artist AND the producer at the same time. (Sidebar: One of the reasons I still miss P5 was that it's UI was so unobtrusive that it never got in the way of creativity. At some point though, it started lacking the extra 'features' and I would move it into SONAR.) Anyway, great post. We all need to slow down sometimes and learn instead of struggling and forcing it.
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twanghang
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 12:25:19
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Just fabulous, Craig, and spot on! I've been a professional musician since age 14 (I'm now 52) & spent 30 of those years as a studio sausage, doing session work in California and Nashville on the player side, but never venturing over to "the other side of the glass". This year I got bit by the bug & after months of researching on the internet and consulting with producers/engineers I've worked with over the years, I arrived at X3 Producer as my DAW of choice. Your words echo what I've told a few of those friends/consultants: "I'll be learning this in the same way and by the same process that I learned to play guitar/keyboards/horns, etc. It's basically another instrument".
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codamedia
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 13:23:14
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Your entire post is outstanding Craig... These following quote is something even the seasoned user can remind themselves of... Anderton I see people with hundreds of plug-ins who haven’t mastered any of them. So learn one dynamics processor, one multiband EQ, and one reverb—you’re covered for 90% of your signal processing needs.
The quote below (from the same paragraph) is something every beginner needs to take the time to learn... Anderton Learn a program’s basics, like input and outputs. Eventually, you’ll figure out automation.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! Desktop: Win 7 Pro 64 Bit , ASUS MB w/Intel Chipset, INTEL Q9300 Quad Core, 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, ATI 5450 Video Laptop: Windows 7 Pro, i5, 8 Gig Ram Hardware: Presonus FP10 (Firepod), FaderPort, M-Audio Axiom 49, Mackie 1202 VLZ, POD X3 Live, Variax 600, etc... etc...
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FuddyDuddy
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 13:37:54
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Amen, Craig. I think the importance of the learning and understanding aspect of music creation has been somewhat lost with the availability of so much digital "stuff". The big, bewildering recording studio has been reduced to a computer screen. How hard could it be? Lots of tempting cool looking plugins. The illusion of the user having control of his sound begins to disappear as he starts turning knobs. They still haven't found a digital shortcut for learning. Just as in days of yore, experience is still the key ingredient to achieving successful control of the music creation process. As you suggest, it wasn't until I began to focus on some basic processes, including learning to LISTEN that I actually began to progress.
Producer X3e Pro, Win7, Gateway P-7805u laptop Intel 2.26 gHz dual core 4 GB, Roland V-Studio 20, Alesis M1 520 monitors, Sennheiser HD-380 headphones
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Cactus Music
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 14:25:28
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One thing worth mentioning - Everyone learns differently. Each student is unique. In the olden days we punished students who were "slow" learners and put them in a corner with a "dunce" hat on. We now have learning assistance specialists that can optimize each students abilities. Lets just say there might be around a dozen learning personality types. So with that in mind, we will have a few people who can read a book or watch a video and comprehend it and learn, but more than a few people who cannot. These people will be the most frustrated. I am among the lucky ones who can get a lot from a well written instruction book, but be kind to those who struggle..their's is a much harder road to understanding. Good post Craig,, and a huge +1 to the age old wisdom of " learn how to walk before you run". I have not gone beyond using 6 EFX's and 4 soft synth's because that's all the time I have for learning new "instruments". I'd rather work on my Mandolin chops...
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Anderton
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 14:35:36
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Beepster Having somewhat limited experience with other DAWs (and the previous one I used extensively was very old) I gotta ask the more seasoned/well rounded folks... Am I mistaken in the impression that Sonar X series is a completely different animal compared to some of the other major players? Based on my limited experience and many video tuts that employed these other platforms they all seem to share some very similar themes and procedures.
I've used, reviewed, and run sessions on pretty much all the major DAWs over the years, The general functionality of DAWs is quite similar - cut, paste, copy, tracks, plug-ins, etc. How these are implemented varies to a greater or lesser degree. For an extreme example, IMHO Ableton Live is more of a "musical instrument" than a "virtual studio," due to its orientation toward DJ-style live performance. In general, "the DAW you know is the DAW you like." If you were raised on DAW "X," then all the other ones don't seem as logical. However, I have dealt with several people recently who switched to Sonar from other DAWs. When I asked one about how he had coped with the learning curve, he said "What learning curve?" He found Sonar totally logical, even though he'd had no experience with it. Enough other people felt the same way that it does seem Sonar's mojo is more transparent than many, if not most, other products. Quick story: I wrote a third-party book for a particular piece of software and the book was very successful. The publisher wanted me to turn another one around quickly with the same topics, chapters, word count, page count, number of illustrations, etc. I said I knew Sonar really well, and that would be the quickest to turn around. When I finished, the publisher was quite upset that I had not followed their directions and the book came up about 25% short on page count, which is a big problem for publishers due to coordination with paper and printing. I didn't think that was possible, so I did a side-by-side page comparison. Most of the time if something took, say, 12 steps in the other program, it took 9 steps in Sonar. Of course there were some exceptions but over the course of the book, all these little changes added up. Eventually I had to include more screen shots to make up the shortfall, but that was an objective confirmation of why I felt I was more productive/efficient in Sonar. The book was about Sonar 3 but for me, the X-series changes - once I learned them - have improved workflow even more. I'm definitely more productive with the X-series programs than I was with previous versions.
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Anderton
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 14:36:51
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Cactus Music I have not gone beyond using 6 EFX's and 4 soft synth's because that's all the time I have for learning new "instruments". I'd rather work on my Mandolin chops...
...and i bet your music is better because of that  A well-played mandolin is a joy.
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mixmkr
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Re: To Those Who Find Sonar Overwhelming...
2014/05/16 14:43:56
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The flip side to this is someone who takes a program like Acid and makes stuff that their friends like and actually is listenable. Fairly easy program to learn, if you've worked with computers. Then...all of a sudden, they're a recording *musician*, yet their *hobby* is just 3 weeks old. All of a sudden, they're able to play [guitar] much better because their recordings (samples/loops) have great fidelity, even though no one ever listens to it in a format other than a MP3 or on a phone or laptop speakers. I see this A LOT. ( I won't say that they think they're great rappers now too... as that would single out a genre)
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