billboutin
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Too much critiquing
Getting personal here, I'm thinking that maybe some times on this forum we're getting way to technical in critiquing the songs, compression, eq, etc. I'm about ready to start posting my songs on the techniques forum, maybe since all the technique people are here, might find more artistic concerns there... There is such a thing as appreciation. Speaking for myself, I feel a need to have my music appreciated, that's why I do it, and I think a lot of other artists feel the same, and I think a lot of us are intimidated by all the techno-babble. Techinque is important as far as getting a clear mix, so that the music can be properly heard as the artists intended, but getting down to "EQ 75Hz on the bass...) and other miniscule and esoteric details is a bit much, don't you think? It's also intimidating those of us with limited equipment, and I think that scares people off the forum- it would scare me off if I had anything better to do.  Anyway, just some thoughts and constructive criticism of my own, IMHO and FWIW Thanks, Manny for your support, Thanks Muddy and Jeff, it is an honor and a privilege to work with such talented people. KIwisdontdrinktea and everyone else I can't remember the names, I appreciate your comments 
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Carl Jensen
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 06:46:55
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Getting personal here, I'm thinking that maybe some times on this forum we're getting way to technical in critiquing the songs I definitely like both aspects...keep the technical comments coming! My $.02-
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6stringsat100mph
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 06:49:07
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What a heartfealt warm and almost glowing thank you to all that have stopped by and offered their support and most of all their technical knowledge. As you glowingly state here, and I quote, "The technical side as home recording artists is almost as important as what you are writing because you are producing your spirit as well" I think that was a perfect way to put it Bill.
Agreed and...Good post friend...
And, your welcome. Glad to be here.
I love learning almost as much as you seem to.
Regards,
Mark
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 07:06:54
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ORIGINAL: 6stringsat100mph
What a heartfealt warm and almost glowing thank you to all that have stopped by and offered their support and most of all their technical knowledge. As you glowingly state here, and I quote, "The technical side as home recording artists is almost as important as what you are writing because you are producing your spirit as well" I think that was a perfect way to put it Bill.
Agreed and...Good post friend...
And, your welcome. Glad to be here.
I love learning almost as much as you seem to.
Regards,
Mark
Thanks so much for your kind post. I was worried that I'd come across as too bitter and cynical, as I often do. My thought processes are quite different from the "neurotyps" (what we call "normal" people.) I tend to jump on my soapbox too often also, and I apologize for that. Trying now to keep the soapbox in my music, if that makes any sense. I am grateful for all the technical help I've received, I did go to the techniques forum where I found out a lot more about how to improve my vocal recording. BTW a coffee filter and coat hanger does make a good, low cost pop filter...  Mainly I want to encourage others who have the desire to express themselves creatively who may be limited in resources as I am. Once upon a time, you could literally change the course of history with nothing but a screwdriver and a pair of pliers, and many businesses started on the kitchen table. Machines make many more things possible that weren't before, but let us also remember the Human element... Peace,
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MofineStudios
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 07:39:28
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If you don't want the recording itself critiqued,just say so when you post the song.People are naturally gonna critique the recording,cause this forumn is about learning how to use the software,and this section of the forumns is where you post your songs recorded with Cakewalk software.
Keep the songs coming,Always enjoy them.
Steve
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Blades
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 07:39:57
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Bill,
My commentary is ordinarily aimed at what the person posting asked for. Often, that is technical critique, sometimes song critique, and sometimes a little of both.
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Amateurmuso
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 07:51:27
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I can relate because I used to upload songs to Garageband but have stopped unless the song I uploaded today gets better reviews because the attitude of other users there is 'in your face', not appreciating the people with limited money etc.. Don't get me wrong, it's a free site and looks better than soundclick but you've got to do reviews of other peoples songs to earn the right to upload your own and evan your reviews can cop a lot of flack let alone other peoples review of your songs. Soundclick at least is more anonymous, Garageband is more 'emotional' rather than technical. Soundclick has popups which are a minor annoyance but all in all I've recently leaned towards them as being better than Garageband for peace of mind reasons. Therefore you might just keep posting on S-click for anonymity because here there's a lot of technoheads so of course that's what you'd expect or go to Garageband for more emotional opinions if you want but be warned it can be like 'ouch'
< Message edited by Amateurmuso -- 1/13/2005 8:17:28 AM >
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bubblefish
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 08:10:44
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hi bill thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, personally i would like more technical comments about my own stuff, buts thats because its my main focus these days. I,m often envious, (and happy for) of the replies the more conventional styles of music gets here, as i have learnt pretty much everything i know about mixing from them. but like i say that just where I,m at at the moment, medioca songs and technique  and a lot of experimentation.... kieran
If you live the sacred and despise the ordinary, you are still bobbing in the ocean of delusion Some sounds with spaces
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pilfa
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 08:21:40
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i post my songs here to get technical issues sorted. I find there is alot of other forums that people will just judge the song at. Because we all user cakewalk people can give me really good ideas for making my song technically better.
I think generally this forum is better for getting technical advise from... and more of a bonus when people include they like the song as well.
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rossipsu1
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 08:31:46
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Hi Bill...
I personally think this forum is a great tool to get technical and arrangement / songwriting help. There are way better sites and outlets out there to get your music listened too and appreciated.
That being said, if that's what you're looking for, just include it in your post and most people will adhere...
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 08:48:26
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Thanks everyone for their replies early this morning here in the midwestern US. I'll respond to everyone in turn here, when I write too many posts I reach my limit sometimes I wonder why they didn't show up... I agree with Carl, both aspects are important. Thank you Mofine studios (Steve) and blades. Sometimes I have a technical question about a song, sometimes I'm just trying to make a statement that I want others to hear and respond to. I will try and be more specific I get scatter brained and a well needed reminder is always appreciated. To Amateurmuso I have tried garageband.com. What stopped me was that the audio player was only good for 14 days, then I would have had to buy one. I wouldn't mind doing the extra work to review other's songs, but it seemed unfair too in that if you had money you could just buy your way in, "bottom line", of course I couldn't afford it because I don't have it... I've learned to ignore the popups, I am glad that this at least gives me an outlet for my music. I've also tried the Soundclick community forum but that hasn't worked out well. Maybe because of it's anonymity, there are too many crackpot posts, for lack of a better word (one guy said he was Justin Hayward...) Another issue I think is timing, because many people can only get on either during certain times of the day or week, and a post they might have been interested in may have disappeared by then. I had considered bumping one of my recent posts every morning this week for that consideration, but I was too afraid I would get in trouble trying to do that. Maybe there could be a way that people could identify the times they're going to be on, so we could find them without risking being in everyone's face all the time. I guess even this system still has some technical glitches that could be improved upon...  There are 14+ thousand people here on CW, there are bound to be conflicts and "bumps in the road." I have the luxury of being able to participate almost 24/7, I know most people aren't so lucky. And since I am on so much, I apologize to those who think I'm too much in their face all the time. I'll tell you what, if I can bump a post for a song that I think deserves more attention without getting criticized for it, I won't worry so much about being ignored. Does that sound fair? Well, here goes, off to bump something...
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toby
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 09:12:34
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ORIGINAL: billboutin
I'm about ready to start posting my songs on the techniques forum, maybe since all the technique people are here, might find more artistic concerns there...
Hey Bill, There is a real friendly place called "Just Plain Folks" http://www.justplainfolks.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi They seem to focus more on songwriting than the technical aspect of recording. I've listened to your stuff and I think you have great potential as a song writer. You obviously have a great passion for it. I think your stuff would fit right in at "Just Plain Folks" Hope that helps. Thanks, Toby
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pilfa
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 09:13:46
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www.songstuff.com/forum this is real friendly music forum. Have already seen a few sonar uses post songs. You never get nasty replies and everyone is usually very honest. Might be good for those who just want replies on song and not mix
< Message edited by pilfa -- 1/13/2005 2:21:25 PM >
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 09:44:24
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Hi, Kieran I apologize for missing you in my last reply. I do like the technical side, I'm hampered by limited funds and equipment right now, but I've been into electronic music ever since I saw a Moog synthesizer at the University of Connecticut in 1971. Wish I had one! So I'm trying to stress the art of my work to comensate for my lack of equipment, it's a defense mechanism, I know...
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 09:46:04
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ORIGINAL: pilfa
www.songstuff.com/forum
this is real friendly music forum. Have already seen a few sonar uses post songs. You never get nasty replies and everyone is usually very honest. Might be good for those who just want replies on song and not mix
Thanks for the post, I just bookmarked it. Maybe I can find somebody else's face to get in for a while... Just kidding!
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 09:48:45
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ORIGINAL: toby
ORIGINAL: billboutin
I'm about ready to start posting my songs on the techniques forum, maybe since all the technique people are here, might find more artistic concerns there...
Hey Bill,
There is a real friendly place called "Just Plain Folks"
http://www.justplainfolks.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
They seem to focus more on songwriting than the technical aspect of recording.
I've listened to your stuff and I think you have great potential as a song writer.
You obviously have a great passion for it.
I think your stuff would fit right in at "Just Plain Folks"
Hope that helps.
Thanks,
Toby
It does help a lot, thanks. I will definately check this out.
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Guest
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 10:00:31
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hi bill,
thanks for your compliment .. when i post or ask for critiques from
peers . i usually state what it is i'm after .. lyric, composition, production
or the whole thing. sometimes people still do the whole thing ... can't
help themselves ;-)
and .. the more i listen and learn .. the nit-pickier i get .. mostly because
one learns what to listen for.....
jeff
ps: almost done w/ the vox on happiness .. i'll shoot you an mp3 before
i wrap it up ...
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 10:10:36
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ORIGINAL: jmarkham
hi bill,
thanks for your compliment .. when i post or ask for critiques from
peers . i usually state what it is i'm after .. lyric, composition, production
or the whole thing. sometimes people still do the whole thing ... can't
help themselves ;-)
and .. the more i listen and learn .. the nit-pickier i get .. mostly because
one learns what to listen for.....
jeff
ps: almost done w/ the vox on happiness .. i'll shoot you an mp3 before
i wrap it up ...
Cool! Thanks again for your help. and you're welcome. 
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esummers@juno.com
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 10:53:51
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Bill,
Someone has said what a lot of us feel. You want to be technically correct with your music and I try to do that. But most of all, I want to know that people enjoy my fits of creativity. That it is something that they might throw in the CD player on their day off.
-Ed Summers
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 11:11:17
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ORIGINAL: esummers@juno.com
Bill,
Someone has said what a lot of us feel. You want to be technically correct with your music and I try to do that. But most of all, I want to know that people enjoy my fits of creativity. That it is something that they might throw in the CD player on their day off.
-Ed Summers
Well said, sir, very well said!
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SteveJL
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:13:36
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Good thread Bill and thanks for posting it. Just remember to come back once in awhile, if you start posting abroad. I, for one, enjoy your posts.  And Ed makes a good point. You just have to remember that if a song has technical problems, they are worth knowing about, plus they will interfere with many listeners from wanting to "put it in theirs CD player" per se. I think the general criteria are: 1) Likeability (emotional) 2) Sound Quality (technical) 3) Listenabilty (both) For me, a tune that scores high on #1, but poor on #2 gets killed on #3 because no matter how "nice" it is, I will never "listen" to it. I always look for balance. I think a lot of what goes on here, is that we have (not all though) a whole whack of musicians making their music privately, at home, who then post here looking for objective, peer-based feedback to all aspects of their creations. Our friends and family generally can't do that for us. And we are all striving to get better in many areas. It is, however, a good idea to stipulate how you want a tune judged (as others have pointed out).
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danhazer
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:18:11
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Critiques from folks like Michael Fogarty (Japan), Ed (ed_mcg), Charlie (horn player), Chaz (Chaz) are not only things you should welcome but also be coveted and strongly sought after.
Thanks,
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kiwisdontdrinktea
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:21:25
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Hi Bill,
I have enjoyed your songs and just want to encourage you in reviews. Of course everyone gets a buzz when reviewers like their songs. But for me I would appreciate more technical feed back on my posts. I know I am not a very good musician, songwriter, engineer but I really want to be. I reeally enjoy listening to a song that is very well produced/mixed/performed. That in itself is also an art as far as I am concerned.
I am fond of this Forum because we get a mix of everything here. I can guage my song writing against really good song writers such as yourself. I can guage my mixes against really good ones from Chaz. I can guage my performance against the best of the best Sonics band, 6Strings Guitar playing etc.
This is a great place to learn. I am not sure the intent of teh Forum was to be a place of appreciation. But it may work out that way for really gioood song writers as yourself.
Cheers,
BArry
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mlavin00
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:27:16
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ORIGINAL: SteveJL
Good thread Bill and thanks for posting it. Just remember to come back once in awhile, if you start posting abroad. I, for one, enjoy your posts.
I think a lot of what goes on here, is that we have (not all though) a whole whack of musicians making their music privately, at home, who then post here looking for objective, peer-based feedback to all aspects of their creations. Our friends and family generally can't do that for us. And we are all striving to get better in many areas.
It is, however, a good idea to stipulate how you want a tune judged (as others have pointed out).
Hey Bill, Interesting thread. I agree that appreciation is an important part of why we place our music up here. We want to share our ideas/talent/sounds with our peers hopefully to elicit the "warm fuzzies" from a group of musicians outside our friends and families. I suppose it is validating in some aspect. However, I must disagree strongly with you regarding the technical comments become and issue. This is a Sonar Forum site where we are mostly home studio musician/amature engineers. The feedback regarding spatial separation, eq issues, levels etc are instrumental in developing mixing/producing skills. I have learned more about the art and science of mixing via critisism of my mixes than could possibly be measured. The "pros" (Chaz, Jonas, Michael Japan and a host of other well respected members of this forum too many to mention) on this forum have been extremely helpful in understanding what makes a mix great and one that leaves a lot to be desired. If technical issues are not what you want to hear, be specific that you don't want it. This forum is pretty much catered to the technical side of music recording/production in my opinion. Thanks for the post and I hope I didn't offend. Mitch
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billboutin
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:47:50
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ORIGINAL: mlavin00
Hey Bill,
Interesting thread. I agree that appreciation is an important part of why we place our music up here. We want to share our ideas/talent/sounds with our peers hopefully to elicit the "warm fuzzies" from a group of musicians outside our friends and families. I suppose it is validating in some aspect. However, I must disagree strongly with you regarding the technical comments become and issue. This is a Sonar Forum site where we are mostly home studio musician/amature engineers.
No, I'm not offended, just confused. This is the "songs" forum, correct? I am also a home recordist and I use Cakewalk software. I value the technical advice and have learned a lot. All I'm saying is I wish there were more of the artistic creative expression in "Songs", their is also a "technique" forum and I've availed myself as well. Am I the only one confused? No offense...
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muddy leopard
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 12:58:10
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ORIGINAL: MofineStudios
If you don't want the recording itself critiqued,just say so when you post the song.People are naturally gonna critique the recording,cause this forumn is about learning how to use the software,and this section of the forumns is where you post your songs recorded with Cakewalk software.
Sorry, Steve ... this forum is "songs", so it's about songsmithstry, not eq and panning and where to put your microphones ... some of us songwriters / players don't have that stuff.
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muddy leopard
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 13:00:28
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mlavin00
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 13:11:38
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ORIGINAL: billboutin
No, I'm not offended, just confused. This is the "songs" forum, correct?
I am also a home recordist and I use Cakewalk software. I value the technical advice and have learned a lot. All I'm saying is I wish there were more of the artistic creative expression in "Songs", their is also a "technique" forum and I've availed myself as well.
Am I the only one confused? No offense...
You shouldn't be confused regarding this topic. This forum is more about posting music for the purpose of critique among primarily sonar users. The technical aspect of recording is almost as important as the song itself. You can have a great song, but recorded incorrectly will leave you with a song that's a mere shadow of it's potential. The technical advice on this "songs" forum is implied, due to the nature of the hosting site. If you want less tech stuff, I would suggest placing your songs on Songramp. It's a good community where people care more about the song than it's production. Mitch
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muddy leopard
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 13:22:54
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ORIGINAL: SteveJL
I think a lot of what goes on here, is that we have (not all though) a whole whack of musicians making their music privately, at home, who then post here looking for objective, peer-based feedback to all aspects of their creations.
Plus some people looking for business which is intolerable
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muddy leopard
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RE: Too much critiquing
2005/01/13 13:25:43
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ORIGINAL: mlavin00
ORIGINAL: billboutin
If you want less tech stuff, I would suggest placing your songs on Songramp. It's a good community where people care more about the song than it's production.
Mitch
I am going to look 'Songs' up in my dickshernerry rith naow.
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