Tracking Compression. After the preamps & before the mixer / DAW

I'd think the budget is what speaks first...  Otherwise you could take it thru the roof.  Years back a studio I worked at had the La2a...and EVERYTHING went thru it...a track at a time.  I'd think some linked 1176 would be on the list, if we're in the right price range....plus another mono or stereo piece.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VariMu/
 
wouldn't this be a good front end piece?
 
or..
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AD2044/

mike_mccue
 
I will also opine that just about any dsp compressor sounds better than any of the mid range analog compressors.
 
 

I totally agree with this and [maybe] confirms maybe I'm not totally clueless... or at least I'm not alone in that thinking.

i think a pair of FMR RNC's would fit your bill.
 
 

I'm w/ Mike on this one.  A good vst beats most lower-cost compressors.  That being said, a good hardware compressor (actually, two) is a superb investment.  Going in, shaping is not the most important factor.  Hopefully you are not squashing the life out of things, since just about any modern converter at 24 bits will handle most signals w/o overs.  Once you get the signal in the box, you can do a lot.  But a little shaping going in can help steady the recored signal so it is easier to mix, but you need to be careful.  My guitarist is always ****ing about dynamics, while I'm worried about his signal sitting right in the mix so I like to shave a little of his wild dynamcs.  However, running a signal through a lot of high-quality circuitry and transfomers can make the sound more like what one expects a pro signal to sound like.  Like through a big time board.  And you can crunch the signal, adding the hair of saturation.  Trust me, that sounds a lot better through high-end gear.
 
The nice thing about two great compressors is you can run the mix out through them when you mix/master it.  All the goodness bestowed going in is doubled coming out.  Or soft synths, soft drums, yada yada yada.  It can make the sound "bigger" even if you ain't shaping or crunching.  We listen to most things that have gone through the myriad of electronics in a big board and you can get a lot of that "sound" using a chain of good hardware, esp. once you've used it for a while and know what to do.  So a stero compressor is good at least twice on any project.
 
As to what to get - figure your budget.  The FMC stereo comps are great for the money - not much of a sound but good for compressing.  The mono unit is more colored, but costs twice as much.  Good reputation tho I haven't used any of those much.  The Warm 1176 ought to be killer if it is up to the rest of Warm's standards.  I don't know about mixing through it, but I imagine putting a stereo sub buss for drums and other percusive stuff would be great.  I've got Warm's other gear and it hits way above its weight.  Another possible gem is the Radial Komit compressor in the 500 series.  I have the earlier, hand made units which are great.  Smooth SSL bus sound on the comps and an old-school diode limiter if you want crush.  Imagine the SONAR PC SSL comp on electrical steriods, followed by a hairy (if you clamp it down) limiter.  Great for channel inserts, stereo in or bus master.  I don't know how much Radial price-points the new models (they cost about half of the hand-made one's) but a great design.  Get a bigger lunch box and you can add other modules as the budget allows.  Finally, the RND comp.  I've got one of those, too, and it does exactly what you expect a comp to do, and it makes everything sound "bigger" going through it.  It will saturate beautifully but not distort.  There are plenty other good comps when you get into that range - $1500 or so.  The distressor is a popular and flexible unit, yada yada yada. You can't really go wrong when you get up there, or higher.  If you spend less you have to be more careful about what you are buying.  Nothing worse than dropping a couple hundred bucks on hardware and having to replace it soon.
 
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Some mixers are leaving their hardware behind since the UAD stuff is so good.  Easier recall and it is close enough.  still, even the most in-the-box  guys still have a few channels of great hardware for input.  UAD is cost effective when you add up the colors at once, but if you do much acoustic recording actual hardware is still a worthy investment.  So my previous arguement stands.  Still, having a great 1176 on the bass, neve on guitar and optical on vocals during mixdown is very temping, plus whatever else the card can do at once.  It won't help you when recording, tho.  Hard choice, my man.

I always get carried away!  I'm rethinking this a bit. Maybe the original thought of either a Drawer 4 ch, the dbx 1046 or the Rane C4 to get some unobtrusive compression and limiting for tracking. The UAD gear can be on the horizon and a WA76 or two after that. Baby steps!  I'm sure the UAD gear is better than the VSTs I have now, but frankly, the limiting factor now is me not the VSTs.

hgj1357
I always get carried away!  I'm rethinking this a bit. Maybe the original thought of either a Drawer 4 ch, the dbx 1046 or the Rane C4 to get some unobtrusive compression and limiting for tracking. The UAD gear can be on the horizon and a WA76 or two after that. Baby steps!  I'm sure the UAD gear is better than the VSTs I have now, but frankly, the limiting factor now is me not the VSTs.

To be honest hg, you really don't need anything spectacular as far as outboard comps go other than if you are trying to go for coloration. Like I said before, the coloration thing is just another flavor, it's not a necessity for everyone. I personally like to "color" my tracks once they are in Sonar...but only if I NEED to. See the way I do things, what I create and what I print usually remains the same.
 
Meaning, what I record will not change drastically with any coloration other than something that was meant to be colored for a special effect etc. I like the clean pure sound of what I put into my DAW or I wouldn't track it, know what I mean? So a coloration compressor isn't something that I always need, nor do I use it often, but I do have a few. My preference for compression going in is usually something cheap believe it or not because like I said before, I'm just using the outboard compressors to condition my signal a little.
 
For example, I like to take all my signals in at -6 dB peak. Whether that's right or wrong in the eyes of others, that is what I prefer and what I feel works the best for me. Now, if I used no compression at all going in, I'd still get -6 dB peak, but it wouldn't look or sound as consistent as it would if I comped a little at say 2:1 removing about -2dB of gain. We're not trying to squash anything here, just condition the signal a little more for consistency because to me, that little bit really makes a difference. From there, the compression I use from UAD, Sonar or whatever I choose, doesn't work as hard and will actually compliment the sound.
 
Could I not use the outboard comp and get the same results from the comps in Sonar? Yeah, but things will behave a little differently and I've just always liked the sound of a lightly comped track more so than no comp at all going in. If you are thinking of comping like I am, just about any compressor with threshold, attack, release and ratio will work. Me and 2 other engineers (1 is pretty credible that a lot of people would know) have a little secret we happened to share with each other. When we shared it, we cracked up and swore we'd never tell.
 
I'm willing to tell because my reputation isn't as known as theirs. LOL! But a lot of my conditioning compression going to disc comes from a few *gulp* Behringer Multicom 2400's and some dbx 163 over-easy comps. For the conditioning thing, they just work well for us. We barely use enough...but without them you can tell a difference. I have a few Drawmer comps in the studio. They are awesome and to me, definitely some of the best comps I've ever used. BUT...I'm not crazy about them for the "conditioning thing" I do. The reason being, the Drawmer comes to life when you jump on it. This is how it gets its sound. I don't want "its sound" at this point, know what I mean? This is the thing Mike was sort of referring to when he mentioned "coloration". There are times when you may not want that...and to me, this is one of those times. I don't need "the Drawmer sound" on my guitar tracks....I like them just the way they are. There's just something (and I wish I could put my finger on it) that these stupid Behringer and dbx 163 pieces do when used lightly that fits what I do going to disc. (and I never clip anything accidentally while using them)
 
That said, the Sonitus compressor is awesome and a comp that I STILL use all the time even though I'm stocked up with killer comps from UAD, Waves and the Sonar higher end plugs that are in PC. The Sonar plugs in my opinion, are awesome. I use them as often as possible other than when I want a little coloration.
 
Now there's that "coloration" word again. In THIS scenario, there are times when I want the sound a particular compressor will give me color wise. This is where the UAD stuff shines. I love the sound of the Fatso...nothing else sounds like it. I love the sound of the NEVE 1081's coupled with the NEVE 33609 compressor. These comps get used on instruments that sound great due to the enhancement they can bring into the mix. There's just something different about the UAD stuff to my ears just by having it on the track. Though it may be mind over matter, it sure does make a difference to me to where I can tell when I forgot to use something I may always use on a track.
 
But in all honesty, you should be able to get great results with the plugs you have stock in Sonar. I have done many projects with nothing other than Sonar plugs. Did they sound worse than when I use my go to plugs? No, just different really. Between the Sonitus stuff and the Pro Channel plugs...you should be fine. If you want a little coloration with a different sort of sound after you print, UAD will be awesome. If you'd like to condition your sound going to disc, just about anything will work. If you want coloration going to disc, you need a compressor with a personality that is known for coloration....and some of these, can cost a decent amount of money. Other times you can get lucky with cheaper stuff. That's really the best way to sum it all up. Good luck.
 
-Danny

Great contribution Danny. A lot of useful stuff in there.  Myself, I've been recording on and off for 30 years. But more accurately, for one year 30 times - as I never seem to progress much! I am determined to develop my skills and equipment and while I realize that I can't just emulate everything someone else does, it does help sometimes to simply be told what to do.
 
Is there much difference between using a compressor after the external preamp and before the digital mixing desk, and using the compressor as an insert on the desk directly after the mixing desk internal preamp (set to 0 db gain)? If so, then this changes my position a bit. My reasoning for wanting a 4-ch outboard was convenience - not having to re-patch each preamp into a single ch comp.  If I can insert an outboard comp on any track with ease then I could get a 1 ch comp for color (a WA76 perhaps) and maybe use the X32's internal comps for clean compression - and add external comps slowly over time as needed.

I have nothing else to compare it to, so I don't really know. Do you not like them Mike?

Great comments Mike. This thread has really exceeded (by a mile) my expectations for what I would get from a simple question. I really appreciate everyone taking time to share their experience. Threads usually make me irritated, this one has really made me re-think my plans, so - thanks to all.
 
Mike, I'm fascinated by your comments on the power draw of components. I'd argue with you on this, but it would be from a position of (largely) ignorance. Is power supply that important?

Hg, I forgot to answer your question!!! So sorry!
 
You asked: "Is there much difference between using a compressor after the external preamp and before the digital mixing desk, and using the compressor as an insert on the desk directly after the mixing desk internal preamp (set to 0 db gain)?"
 
That's pretty much like asking "should I use a flanger before my reverb or a verb before my flange" in a guitar signal. The answer is...it really depends on the sound you are going for. If you use a comp after the pre, you are compressing the pre. If you use the compressor before the pre, you are pre-amping your compressor and will get a different sound.
 
If you are using a compressor in an insert in a console (this is how I do it) I like this method the best. BUT, you have to watch how much pre you use as it will make the compressor react more to where it will be more sensitive as more signal is fed into it. Depending on how much threshold and ratio you have will determine how much compression will be present based off of the signal through the board.
 
For example, when I use my outboard comps, I use them in the insert of either my Tascam DM 4800 or my Mackie 32x8. Neither have great pre's like the Midas in the X32, but they get me to -6 dB peak and that's all I want them to do. But anyway, at -6 dB on my LED, this pushes into the compressor which in turn starts to give me a gain reduction amount. The more pre amp signal I use, the more gain reduction I get out of using very little threshold. So you have to be careful. Most times I'm taking away around -1.8 to -2 dB of gain where the -2 light flickers from time to time at a ratio of 1.5:1 or 2:1. That's really light. I may run the threshold at -5 to -8 which is super light, but because of the pre pushing into the comp, you have to watch how much push you actually use. This is why I use such low ratios and low thresholds. I'm just conditioning to disc, not really going for my final compression setting.
 
Hope that helps a bit. :)
 
-Danny

A useful analogy for power supplies is a car.  Sure, a 120 hp gas saver will drive a car the speedlimit (and more) and have OK pickup.  But a bigger engine will drive quicker and faster smoother, haul a bigger load and not get passed by semis driving in the Rockies.  It doesn't mean a smaller power supply is bad, but it is likelier to have problems at the margins.  RND Neve does use an external wall wart power supply in most of their units, but in the Portico II he uses an internal supply running 54 volt rails.  Plenty of power.  And on the new Shelford's he uses a separate power supply that runs from several hundred $ on up, depending on how many units you plan on running at once.  Power does matter.
 
External wall warts are used since it is cheaper for export purposes.  You don't have to get your hardware unit approved for every standard in the world - just use an appropriate off-the-shelf external power supply which is already approved.  There is also the noise factor - internal power supplies have to be carefully designed and shielded to prevent noise.  This too saves money.  The Warm preamp uses a wall wart and it has never caused me a problem.  The Warm Tone Beast uses a wall wart (actually, both are lump-in-line) although Bryce tried to use an internal one since it was a full rack width.  I have a prototype w/ the internal supply and there is no practical noise - but he thought it would be better to have an external one.  I use it as part of a stereo unit w/ a second external powered unit - with no second thoughts.  I wouldn't on an orchestral recording or something very delicate, but you'll have more self noise in your system than the TB internal gives, and more room noise recording most stuff.
 
In short, power does matter, but it ain't the only thing.  Most pro units use internal power, but they also use the best components throughout, sturdier metal work, etc. etc.  That is why they cost so much and how they can afford to do it.  Out of a shoddy design, subpar components or an external supply, I know which one I'd choose.
 
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