Helpful ReplyTracking Guitars for HUGE sound

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markminer
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2014/07/06 21:08:55 (permalink)

Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound

Experimenting with multi tracking guitars. I'm not a novice at this but wanted to streamline the productivity and get a punchier, thick tone without turning to mush.Say you want three main 'crunch' parts. Instead of tracking six tracks (that typically looses definition) I would Arm track one and two, record simultaneously. Then Arm tracks three and four with slightly different tone (different amp, or guitar) and double again, simultaneously . Last Arm tracks five and six and again record simultaneously for a 'counter rhythm' part. So far it's pretty BIG but I in fact only have three tracks (even through there are six in the Guitars track folder) All guitars goes to a dedicated BUS and mixing levels and panning seems much cleaner. Am I on the right track here? Suggestions? Thanks everyone!
 

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BlixYZ
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/06 22:10:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markminer 2014/07/08 11:37:51
The most common mistake is thinking that more distortion=bigger sound. There is a point of diminishing returns. I often have my clients double their driven guitar tracks with a LESS distorted tone. They usually balk at first, but in the end they live the result. Less driven means less compressed. More attack. More balls- can I say balls? I don't mean clean, mind you, just less than fully driven.

Also, when you record a take into 2 tracks, you may want to experiment with nudging one a little later. Watch for phasing, but it can really thicken the sound compared to 2 tracks perfectly in sync.

All that being said, if you are loving the results, you ARE doing it right :)

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/06 23:47:27 (permalink)
You can also use the channel tools plugin to experiment with a slight delay without moving the clip.
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sharke
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/06 23:55:21 (permalink)
You may find this a very interesting read (if you can get past the bad language - but hey, that's Slipperman for you!)
 
http://www.badmuckingfast.../sound/slipperman.html

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Cactus Music
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 00:00:02 (permalink)
A trick from my 4 track days was to take that one guitar track you where given, and run it out to an amp in a big room. ( they call this re-amping now) Then put 3 or 4  mikes all over the place and back to the mixing desk.  so the 1 track now had 4 or 5 channels.. These could be panned etc. It was certainly way bigger than having one track. 
So you could emulate this ITB sending one track to 5 buses and then using channel tools to delay, pan, eq and mess with the soundscape. 
I do like the sound you get from playing the same part twice better. But not 3x,, that never seems to go anywhere. 

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 08:43:22 (permalink)
That Slipperman article made my day, thanks.
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 09:13:52 (permalink)
markminer
Instead of tracking six tracks (that typically looses definition) I would Arm track one and two, record simultaneously.



There is no point recording the same audio source onto 2 tracks. You've basically just got 1 track at twice the volume but with double the disk resources used. The reason people record guitar multitracks is because the tiny differences between the performances layer upon each other to create a thicker sound. That's also why a section of 11 cellos can't be replaced by 1 cello with the volume turned up, and why a choir turned down doesn't sound like a solo singer.
 
For heavy rhythm guitar tracks, I will usually record at least 2 tracks of (one panned hard left, one panned hard right) with the same settings. Sometimes I'll record 4 tracks (2 left, 2 right) but I have been finding that the downsides outweigh the benefits there so I may not do that in future.

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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 09:28:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markminer 2014/07/08 11:39:30
My recipe is this :

Record one good track.

Clone it 3 times, so you get a total of 4 tracks.

Pan 2 of them hard left then nudge one of those tracks by a couple of milliseconds.

Do the same fot the other 2 tracks, only panning them hard right this time.

Add reverb (to taste) to one track to one of the left tracks and to one of the right tracks.

My two euro cents !

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 09:56:57 (permalink)
Doing that with just two tracks should have the same effect. Anything that you straight up double left and right is basically the same as a louder centered version.
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Sidroe
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 10:28:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Brando 2014/07/07 18:56:17
Cloning tracks will only give you the SAME gtr in the SAME amp. What works for me and the gtr albums I listen to is this formula. To achieve that Wall Of Sound gtr sound you hear on Queen, Def Leppard, or any of the metal bands out there is really a combination of DIFFERENT gtrs thru DIFFERENT amps. Try laying the first track with your primary sound. Then overdub from there with different amps or sims with different cabs and different pedals and preferably different guitars and different mics. Pay close attention to the mix and panning of the tracks. Hard left for a couple and hard right for a couple. Mix them up! Don't put all your dirt tracks on one side and all your slightly overdriven tracks on the other. Mix and match until you get a good blend for both sides. I prefer to assign all those tracks minus the solos to a GTR WALL BUSS. That way when you get your mix sounding right, you can turn all those tracks up and down with the buss volume.
BEWARE! You want to cut these tracks with no chorusing, delay, or reverbs. Chorusing is usually not used at all because you achieve that sound by mixing all of these basic tracks already. I prefer dry as possible and add reverb at the buss. Nothing sounds worse than 4-10 gtr tracks that sound like they were recorded in completely different rooms! It sounds much more authentic to add a nice room reverb on the buss!
Again, this advice is aimed at getting those power chord sounds. Solos are a little different.
I hope this helps you and is not too confusing. It is a little more trouble and takes a little more time but it is well worth the extra effort. I promise you.
 

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Kylotan
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 10:34:24 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Doing that with just two tracks should have the same effect. Anything that you straight up double left and right is basically the same as a louder centered version.

Some people are talking about nudging tracks slightly, which will help create some amount of stereo depth rather than just sounding like a loud centered track. But it will also create some phasing artifacts and probably won't collapse to mono very well. I prefer to record the part twice and pan those. That's how most rock recording artists work.

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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 10:47:22 (permalink)
Fuzz and other distortion tends to make the sound smaller.  More of the effect and the sound actually gets farther away.  No matter how loud you turn it up.  In order for it too be LOUD and forward the arrangement must be sparse and out of the way frequency wise, which is not usually a rock forté.  More guitars usually doesn't help much.  It can be fun to record and muck with, but is often not worth the effort if you A/B.
 
Punch is easier to achieve on undistorted sound.  Try layering the same part (played a second time) with a cleaner guitar and bring it up underneath the distorted one.  Kinda like parallel compression.  At some point it will kick up punch and definition w/o becoming too obvious. 
 
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 11:02:45 (permalink)
It depends on what kind of huge sound you mean. If you mean a buzzsaw bunch of layers, almost like a pad, that's one kind of huge (e.g., first Sex Pistols album). If you mean in-your-face powerful, that's another kind and tends to be what I prefer but of course, that's totally subjective.
 
I prefer the latter because I believe that fewer parts gives more importance to the parts you have. A friend of mine, Mark Williams, with a strong punk ethic once said "the minute you put on that second guitar part, you're going in the wrong direction." He meant it semi-tongue-in-cheek but I think there's some truth in there.
 
My favorite technique for BIG is multi-band distortion from placing different frequency bands before distortion - one guitar ends up creating four guitar tracks. The lowest filter almost sound like bass. I pull back distortion on the highest band so the notes articulate better. The lower mid pans slight left, and the upper mid, slight right. One multi-band part sounds big and powerful yet never turns into "sludge" because it's only one guitar.
 
Unfortunately I don't have any audio examples of that sound, nor anything where I've mixed it up high - I generally use it as something supportive to really drive a song wih a single guitar. However, I did post a song where you can hear the sound in isolation for a few seconds. Scoot to around 3:50 and at 4:00, you'll hear the sound of multiband guitar by itself. It then spirals into an echo that ends the song so the basic sound doesn't last very long, but it at least gives an idea of what I'm talking about. Mix it higher and double it by playing another part, and you'll have a powerful (not necessarily "big") sound.
 
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsp5hOxRX1M  I'm on the road this week but if there's interest, I'll record a proper audio example comparing single- and multi-band distortion when I return.
 
 

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jbow
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 11:45:35 (permalink)
What if you were to get 2 or 3 Gibson Memory cables for your studio use. Then after a client records, you can take the cord and re-record the parts as many ways, in as many rooms, through as many amps or FX as you want to try. You'll have the clean guitar signal preserved to do with as you please.
You would lose nothing and gain a lot as far as options. You could just tell clients that it is an extra backup of the recording.. which it is.
 
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jbow
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 11:51:12 (permalink)
sharke
You may find this a very interesting read (if you can get past the bad language - but hey, that's Slipperman for you!)
 
http://www.badmuckingfast.../sound/slipperman.html


.... but does Slipperman have any opinions, LAFF?
IDK, but after reading a little, I think Slipperman would have been a great drinking buddy back when.
I had seen this a while back, it is a fun read. I decided to look for more re: Slipperman and found this forum http://www.thewombforums.com/index.php?s=a806aeba85dcc4ac53d7191f1fd590e0 I haven't looked at is much but it looks interesting... maybe.
 
J
post edited by jbow - 2014/07/08 11:50:24

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Kylotan
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 12:56:05 (permalink)
jbow
What if you were to get 2 or 3 Gibson Memory cables for your studio use. Then after a client records, you can take the cord and re-record the parts as many ways, in as many rooms, through as many amps or FX as you want to try. You'll have the clean guitar signal preserved to do with as you please.



A more common way to do this is to record the clean guitar signal via a DI box, and then 're-amp' it by playing it back through the amp while recording. Or some people just use software guitar amps and cabs now and 99% of people can't tell the difference. :)

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 15:35:25 (permalink)
I'll echo the advice on not playing over-saturated parts.
Especially with lower quality amps...
That can create a "bee hive" effect.
 
If you're looking for a big/fat sound, start with the instrument/amp.
To me, that would mean playing a guitar with humbucker/s... thru an amp that produces a big/bold sound.
Les Paul thru a Marshall is a classic combination.  Classics are classic for a reason (they work).
 
Mic the amp with a mic that'll capture/flatter the perceived size.  Shure SM7B is a great choice for this purpose.
Can take super high SPL, yields more top and bottom than an SM57, and the large diaphragm will help yield a larger sound (which is why the SM7B is popular in radio/broadcasting scenarios)
 
As has been mentioned, double-track the rhythm guitar parts... and pan them left/right.
IMO, There's no substitute for recording a real/tight doubled track.
The subtle differences in timing, pitch, and nuance provide a very sweet "stereo animated" result.
Delaying a copied track can work... but it won't sound as "alive" as a real double.
 
 

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Cactus Music
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 15:57:39 (permalink)

post edited by Cactus Music - 2014/07/22 12:05:32

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 16:40:37 (permalink)
Kylotan
Sanderxpander
Doing that with just two tracks should have the same effect. Anything that you straight up double left and right is basically the same as a louder centered version.

Some people are talking about nudging tracks slightly, which will help create some amount of stereo depth rather than just sounding like a loud centered track. But it will also create some phasing artifacts and probably won't collapse to mono very well. I prefer to record the part twice and pan those. That's how most rock recording artists work.

I agree but using two identical tracks on both sides and nudging one of each still leaves two identical unnudged tracks left and right. Which is the same as a single centered track. That's why I said doing it with just two tracks (nudging/delaying one) should have the same effect.
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sharke
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 17:19:12 (permalink)
Cactus Music there's no point in a capo with a power cord  ;)


I can confirm this. In fact they just fall right off.

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hockeyjx
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 17:50:34 (permalink)
I'll usually record three main rhythm tracks: Left, Right and Center. I use Guitar Rig and AmpliTube primarily because I can blend the sound after recording (i.e. dial down distortion to fit the soundscape). I can not record clean, as I find it a bit uninspiring for a distorted part. I may put the center channel clean with some eq, and then move it down in the mix. Once I get the 2 or 3 takes I like, I archive the unprocessed performances.
 
And to second what Johnny said: different chord voicings can add a LOT underneath the main part as well.
post edited by hockeyjx - 2014/07/07 21:23:09

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dwardzala
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 19:39:43 (permalink)
Cactus Music
I also will double acoustic rythym tracks, not just the crunchy ones. Play the same thing twice.. it always takes me a few takes ( sometimes more than a few) to be happy anyways, so one more take is easy by then.
Another trick for both electric or acoustic is to put a capo on and have a different chord voicing. Power chords are excluded from this idea as there's no point in a capo with a power cord  ;)


But you can voice power chords in different registers and/or on different strings and/or invert the notes to expand the sound.

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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/07 23:05:40 (permalink)
Cactus Music
There's no point in a capo with a power cord  ;)

 
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 05:11:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markminer 2014/07/08 11:48:44
Jim Roseberry
 
If you're looking for a big/fat sound, start with the instrument/amp.


Agreed.
Expanding a bit on that from my experience, string / action height and pickup height can have a great deal to do with the sound of the guitar and how it drives the amp or virtual amp.
The higher the action the more room the strings have to move.
The lower the pickups the less magnetic restriction on the strings = again ... more string excursion.
Of course the action height thing is also about a physical comfort zone but I'd always recommend don't be afraid to step out of the comfort zone and let it grow on you a bit.

I usually find a place with the action /setup where it begins to be high enough that I start to really relax and play more calmly, and with a lighter touch. Too low of an action always makes me struggle and want to dig in too much, probably because I'm not getting the sound from the strings.

When it feels like there is airy space under the strings and it all gets easy is when I end up getting the sound onto the (virtual) tape.
 
I also agree there's no substitute for a "real" double track. It's also a great way to tighten up the performance, as like,
cut the first one, cut the second while listening to the first, and the second one "adapts" a bit.

Now mute the first one and cut a 3rd while listening to the second.
The listening mix and balance / panning can be critical in this process but what I look for is letting the track I'm monitoring tell me how to fit with it. It's find the magic. When I hit that spot I'm just letting it happen as opposed to controlling it.
Sometimes I'll try 4, 5, or 6 to see how far it can go.
For me the trick is not getting too cold, and knowing where the heart and or guts of the performance wants to be for this particular part.


post edited by Steve_Karl - 2014/07/08 05:30:03

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#24
joakes
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 08:20:36 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Kylotan
Sanderxpander
Doing that with just two tracks should have the same effect. Anything that you straight up double left and right is basically the same as a louder centered version.

Some people are talking about nudging tracks slightly, which will help create some amount of stereo depth rather than just sounding like a loud centered track. But it will also create some phasing artifacts and probably won't collapse to mono very well. I prefer to record the part twice and pan those. That's how most rock recording artists work.

I agree but using two identical tracks on both sides and nudging one of each still leaves two identical unnudged tracks left and right. Which is the same as a single centered track. That's why I said doing it with just two tracks (nudging/delaying one) should have the same effect.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Each to his/her own.

You do get a richer sound, i feel.

The importance, again, my idea, is to record the tone you want correctly, and as a dry signal. I use either an RP500 or ME80 direct into my LS56 THEN add reverb or delay to enhance the effect. You can play around with which tracks you actually place the reverb on, and, if you want, add an EQ..... There is no limit to the imagination !

Again, my way that i wanted to share.

Cheers,
Jerry

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#25
Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 08:29:21 (permalink)
Just for the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about recording a part twice and panning that. I'm talking specifically about panning the SAME track (no delay/nudge) left and right. Are you saying this gives you a richer sound than a single centered track?
#26
markminer
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 11:59:24 (permalink)
Thank you everyone, great points made here. My general rule is to not multi track the guitars with the same amps or in this case modeling (which after a YEAR of tweeking Line 6 and Overloud plug ins) Ive got killer results. I record with a fairly saturated tone with guitar 'A' and then use a much cleaner tone and guitar 'B' for the double. The doubled tone by itself almost sounds TOO clean but as stated here the combo of the two tones together is big and fat yet retains definition. Again, thanks everyone! 

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#27
Featherlight
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 12:30:57 (permalink)
sharke
You may find this a very interesting read (if you can get past the bad language - but hey, that's Slipperman for you!)
 
http://www.badmuckingfast.../sound/slipperman.html


Best article of micing guitars I've read in a long time! Worthy of a Pesado Award for sure lol!

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#28
joakes
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/08 13:04:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markminer 2014/07/12 23:05:45
Sanderxpander
Just for the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about recording a part twice and panning that. I'm talking specifically about panning the SAME track (no delay/nudge) left and right. Are you saying this gives you a richer sound than a single centered track?




Yep, to my ears. I don't like using software effects like Guitar Rig et al (even tho' I have version 5).
 
As I said before, its the way I do it and it suits me fine.
 
But that's not what is important. The point is there are many different ways of how to do it, as explained in this fred, by many different people. There is obviously NO right way, and if I may say, no wrong way.
 
Cheers,
Jerry

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#29
brconflict
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound 2014/07/09 13:35:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markminer 2014/07/12 23:07:24
I'll be the purist in a sense here, since I routinely track a massive, but punchy-sounding Les Paul through and old 5150 half-stack, and I'll make a recommendation that I have tested and tested, and tested over and over:
Get a loud amp with fresh tubes, and plug the guitar directly into it on the Overdrive or distortion channel. I have never ever heard a guitar that comes close, and that's not a scrutinizing ear, that's just a notably discernible difference that can be heard in the final recording. Even the common listener can tell a difference if you A/B different guitar tracking methods. 
 
Get in the room with the guitar amp, and tweak it until it really does what you want in the room. If you track multiple cabs, I personally recommend putting each cab in a different room. Use one decent condenser mic, even a tube mic (I use an Avantone cv-12 often), Find the right distance by listening and mic the upper speakers, if you can. The lower speakers will give you reflections from the floor. Listen, tweak, listen, tweak, and so on. Once you get the tone you want, I'm serious, there's no EQ you'll need afterward.
 
For copying takes over and playing with the phasing to create a thicker, stereo effect, you are better off tracking twice instead of copy/paste/phase. However, in a 20-year old session I'm remixing, where there was only one guitar, and I need two, I've learned to copy it twice. Put two of them on the far left/right, and one in the center at a lower level so that when they collapse you're more likely to save some tone in mono. Play with the phase, but run the signal through a tube amp and re-mic it to allow yourself some variances on how well they sound when panned left/right.
 
I've tried re-amping each one through a different head/amp, and I've even re-amped a guitar through another guitar's pickups by either tapping into the coils, or blasting the signal across a single string on a guitar plugged into an amp cranked up and mic'd. Mixing some of these weird elements into the mix, you can open up some interesting opportunities with a single guitar track!
 
NOTE! If you are going to phase a copy of a guitar track to create a stereo effect, not only is mono a challenge as to not cancel out the tracks, ensure you're not exactly 180-degrees out of phase between the two waveforms. BUT, don't overlook headphones vs. monitors. You will often find the left-right balance relationship changes drastically between monitors and headphones.
 
 

Brian
 
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