Tracking Question

By average they are referring to the rms component part of the signal. And -18 dB FS is a good reference. K system uses -20 dB FS which is close.

It is still better to have a VU meter plugin working though set for say a -20 dB FS ref level and then the meter will show you 0 dB Vu when the signal is averaging -20 dB FS. Much easier to read and control etc...

There is a free one here:

http://sleepytimerecords.com/audioplugins

and a very affordable one here:

http://www.klanghelm.com/VUMT.html 

Use these in conjunction with your standard peak metering and you will have it all covered.

@Jeff -- Which VU meters do you use? @Mike -- Which guidelines would you recommend reading?

sharpdion23


@Mike -- Which guidelines would you recommend reading?

I don't.. I'm not a fan of any of the guidelines... I think it's a distraction to just doing it. I think we should all be listening to the tone and I think that most folks will quickly learn, through practice, how to not overshoot the 0dBfs limit because the good tone isn't there any ways.


The guidelines are all arbitrary sets of procedures... I don't do a good job of recommending stuff like that.


I will admit though, that guidelines may be helpful as part of the journey... I'm more interested in setting levels to get the results you want.






I will say that Jeff's recommendation of tracking with VU meters on a PPM recording system is a guideline that gets you to light at the end of the tunnel faster than many other guidelines.


It's not easy to use the VU meters because they are sluggish compared to the PPM meters. It sharpens your skills as a listener to work this way... because properly calibrated VU meters will be barely moving and you'll be real close to ruining your recording with a digi over. It will make you alert and sharp thinking. I'm all for it! :-)



best regards,
mike

it should vary track to track.

for example, a snare may PEAK at -6 on your sonar meter....

but the RMS value of it could be WAY WAY down....


if you were to use a limiter on your snare going in (assuming you are micing a live drum and use an external limiter) it's feasible you could have those same -6db peaks on the snare hits, but have a much higher RMS value.

RMS and PEAK should be treated as two entirely different things, that are linked together all the same.



if you are heavy handed with drum processing, and want to drive the RMS values of your collective kit UP (meaning, you are getting rid of DYNAMICS)........
 YOU SHOULD PROBABLY GO WITH MUCH LOWER PEAK VALUES.


your are doing two things at once....
pushing up, and pushing down.

you have to understand gain staging, and what compression and limiting actually do, to take full advantage of your knowledge about  DBFS

Sorry to piggyback this thread - some good advice on levels in general to take on board.   I have just got the Klanghelm meters and have a specific question.
 
I've tried it on a section of a guitar track which according to the Sonar meters is peaking at
-6.9dBFs.     I then put the VUMT Solo meter in the FX Bin, and set it to PPM with the default settings (PPM reference setting -9 and LED peak -6).   The VUMT LED lights up at the -6.9 peak in the track, even though SONAR meters indicate -6 hasn't been reached.  Is that just because all meters have a slight discrepancy between them or have I got the settings wrong?
 
Thanks for any advice.
 

that's the whole point of the links i sent...

to show the difference between what you are getting with RMS versus PEAK...
and what you should be shooting for.

if your meters are hitting -6 on digital scale meters, what is the equivalent of what you would be hitting on an analog scale?


are your tracks sounding a bit....... crunchy?

yes, analog has sorta built-in anti crunchy devices.

heheh

sharpdion23


Ok, so other than percussive instruments, it is a rule of thumb to record at -18 dbFS using VU Meters? But as of the moment I do record as Danny suggested which is peaking at the -6db mark.

As dumb as this may sound coming from me, I don't even pay attention much to my meters other than to see if I'm hotter than a -6dB peak and I make sure it's not a constant -6 dB peak. Meaning...
 
Let's say I'm playing a distorted guitar part. Arm Sonar, and play the song I'm about to record. I won't play another song, I won't play a solo, I play exactly what I'm going to record so I can judge the meters correctly. I play nearly the entire song parts to see where my meter is hovering. It's under -6 just about all the time, but once in a while I'll get a little peak coming in.
 
Most times a high pass can control it. I always use a light compressor going in, so if something does hit -6 dB it won't stay there or create a super spike TO -6 dB while being low signal wise.
 
What I mean is....let's say I'm averaging about -12 dB. If that were the case, you'd never see a spike in any of my tracks that went to -6dB. I try to keep things consistent without over-processing.
 
For the percussive instruments, I do the same thing. I try to make things consistent and if there is a jump to -6 dB, it's not coming from a far away place. A little compression, the right mic placement and a high pass can work wonders. :) I never get anything "crunchy" on my end that isn't supposed to be crunchy. If it crunches, I made it do it with a processor...not due to my input signals being out of control.
 
-Danny

AT


Danny, what a novel concept.  Use your ears?

For an engineer, it is good to know electronics and ratio's such as the above scaling info.

It is also good to have some idea of music, too.  Structure, etc.

But the best thing to understand is your system - how to make it sound good to your ears.  Because you are making artistic decisions during the recording process.  If it doesn't sound good to you, you won't be able to make your own decisions.

I (almost) always find it easier to mix loud sounds.  It is easier to simply turn a track down rather than massage it louder w/o any of the crunchyness or crunchy peaks.

But if you don't have high-end equipment it is probably better to leave more headroom than stress the hardware you do have.  Pro equipment, the kind w/ too many zeros after the dollar sign, are made for running close to the edge.  The typical home recorder's equipment isn't so much.  The car analogy is good here.  A big-engined car and a 4-cylinder " coupe will both hit 100mph.  The former will get there smoother and quicker.  Or down in the pasture a truck or jeep won't bottom out where your family sedan gets hung up.

hitting -6 dB is a goal, not a god.  If that level "crunches" your system, for whatever reason, don't hit it.  If you find signals at -20 dB are too hard to get up to a usuable level record louder.  Use your ears and the science behind sound will come.

Well said AT....100% agree there. :) It amazes me how much time people put into meters, reading about them, the K-System and all that other stuff. I mean don't get me wrong, it's good to be up on all that stuff...but to live religiously by a meter, graph, chart or sticking to guidelines that become "laws" just doesn't sit well with me. I arm my tracks, set my levels...if it sounds good and my sound is a good sound....I win...end of story, ya know? Just my personal opinion though.
 
-Danny

I adopted Danny's suggested -6 Dbfs a little over a year ago and it has worked well for me. In many cases I find I still end up better off if when I am done tracking I pull everything down another 2 db before I start mixing. This way by the time I am done with compression, EQ tweaks, and everything starts to sum up at the 2 bus I am still left with a little more headroom. There's nothing I hate more than having a mix nearly perfect but needing that snare to crack a bit louder and not having the room to turn it up... I rather have the required breathing room and turn the master fader up when I am done. I should try a -8 tracking just to make it that much easier on myself! =)