Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes!

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JazzSinger
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2006/02/10 05:51:58 (permalink)

Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes!

Especially for DimPro and the upcoming Rapture.

I use and love the free sfz sampler, but crashes when saving in Sonar spoil working with it. (note: CW support has been great and very patient with me, but they were simply unable to reproduce the effect. And it crashes on all 4 PCs I own!).

I realize CW is selling these with megalibraries and you need them to appreciate the sound, but I do Irish Folk and create my own samples. I want to test DimPro and/or Rapture in my setup to see whether the problem I have been having is solved.

Please can we get trial versions to test in our own environments?

Rene has always had trial versions of his synths which cut the sound every 10 secs or so. Something like this would be ideal, because absolutely every aspect can be tested, including saving (which is where I am having problems). Trial versions could even be made with release codes (I don't know how DimP and R are protected). Even that aspect could then be tested in situ!

If we want to hear what they sound like, we can still listen to the online demos.
#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    Paradroid
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/10 15:49:22 (permalink)
    I like downloadable demos too but I can understand the logistical nightmare involved in trying to provide content-compromised versions for all plugin formats and platforms that Cake bake for. If products are selling, why stop working to get involved in that murky mess?

    Also, there are online sound clips and [tracks] from heavy users. Like what you hear?

    Lastly, I haven't heard of anyone that's having regular meltdowns when using Dimension and if you did, I'd be asking if there's something about the setup of your PCs that's causing the problem.

    Sorry to here about your bad run with the sfz player. That little fella is probably the most under appreciated guy in the whole VST universe… (when it's not crashing Sonar, of course!)
    #2
    lawapa
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/10 19:26:55 (permalink)
    Jazz; I do understand your interest. I have the SFZ+ and do my own acoustic sample sets. So's here's what I think. I have a full compliment of rgcaudio synths and Dimension Pro. Pro will be a step up from SFZ player in many areas. And the improved SFZ spec will allow more tweaking. You will not give it up once you have it ;)+) As for rapture, This gets tricky. I'm getting it but I love to mangle sound. Rapture was more tools to do this with. If you do straight ahead Irish acoustic music Rapture might not be your cup of tea. It does add 2 more elements but this one feature might not do the trick. But Rene knows acoustic sound sets and if he disagrees here he does know more precisely what Rapture can bring to a fully acoustic set.
    #3
    Paradroid
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/10 19:33:17 (permalink)
    precisely what Rapture can bring to a fully acoustic set

    From the looks of things, Rapture would offer you another couple Elements (read: more simultaneous sounds with graphical control) but not much more for straight acoustic sample sets.

    That's, assuming, you don't want to use the Step Gens on your Tin Whistle.
    #4
    lawapa
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/11 20:13:43 (permalink)
    Ya know I have no idea what a step gen would do to a acoustic sound but I do plan on finding out.
    #5
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/13 04:11:50 (permalink)
    the logistical nightmare involved in trying to provide content-compromised versions for all plugin formats and platforms that Cake bake for.

    I repeat: Rene has always had trial versions of his synths which cut the sound every 10 secs or so. CW have trial version for a few products they market, I am hoping they expand this, that's all.
    Also, there are online sound clips and [tracks] from heavy users. Like what you hear?

    No. Again, I repeat: I do Irish Folk and create my own samples. These may be notes or incidentals (string scrapes, slow crossovers from one note to another, etc.) played by our musicians, and other highly individual stuff. Whilst the supplied presets are great, I cannot use them.
    sfz player. That little fella is probably the most under appreciated guy in the whole VST universe…

    And how! I felt embarrassed getting customer support for a free product, but I think its so great, I want to pay for it. But I want to get a working version first, of course.
    straight ahead Irish acoustic music Rapture might not be your cup of tea.

    Thank you. However, it IS CHEAPER and probably because the library is not as comprehensive, so perhaps, if it does everything that DimPro does, it may still be the right thing.

    But here again is my dilemma: without demo versions, and with the lack of info in the sales literature, how can I ever find out?
    #6
    lawapa
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/13 21:47:42 (permalink)
    You write your own sample sets as I do. I'm heavy on articulations I could get no where else. So. I will assume you do SF2's or SFZ 's. Dimension Pro uses an expanded sfz spec, with new and improved opcodes to address even more complex sound sets. You could go to rgcaudio and download the sfz2 document, take a look. The sound is several steps up from the sfz and the new opcodes allow for some really fun stuff. I understand your frustration here. But I've been using Rene's synths for a while. I don't need demo's because these things are just that good. I'd invite you over to check them out but I don't think your in the neighborhood. For me it's not even a leep of faith anymore. These tools are simply fantastic. If you are pleased with the sfz then assume that Dimension Pro is more than twice that and then some.
    #7
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/14 05:02:07 (permalink)
    I don't need demo's because these things are just that good. ... If you are pleased with the sfz

    What I am not pleased with is that sfz crashes when I have more than one sfz instance open in a project, and each instance has a .wav .sfz soundset > 10meg or so.

    As I pointed out in my first post, Cakewalk support have done their best, but they were unable to reproduce the effect. One other member in the Sonar forums is also reporting the same problem, so it's not just me.

    So the need for a demo version is primarily: will DimPro/Rapture crash on my PCs or not?

    This is from Rene's own SHOP page:

    "Please test extensively the demo version of your selected product (s) in your host to make sure there are no misbehaviors before purchasing."

    He is fully aware that quirks can and do happen. What I cannot understand is that Cakewalk have not taken this philosophy on board. Especially not on the more expensive products (ie. DimPro). What is Cakewalk's policy if a user cannot get the product to work?


    I'd invite you over to check them out but I don't think your in the neighborhood.

    That's very kind of you, but it's hardly the job of fans to do this. I still maintain Cakewalk has a duty to fulfill here.

    But hey, perhaps you might try reproduce the phenomenon yourself if you have time.

    Get two .wav file sfz soundsets of around 10meg each (it MUST be .wavs in a .sfz, SF2 soundfonts do not crash).

    Create a new, clean project (template Normal) and insert two instances of sfz. Be sure to check the track and the plugin interface checkboxes.

    Now load one sound in each sfz. Note: they must be separate soundsets. Loading the same one twice does not cause the effect.

    Now, in Sonar, press the save project icon.

    Before the "save to" dialog has a chance to come up, Sonar crashes. And the Dr. Watson error logs show the crash was in sfz.

    Do you get this?

    This happens on all 4 of my systems, including this completely unrelated PC I use at work I am writing this posting on.
    post edited by JazzSinger - 2006/02/14 05:15:39
    #8
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/14 07:26:51 (permalink)
    go to rgcaudio and download the sfz2 document

    H'm. I can only find the original sfzformat.htm document.

    Where is the sfz2 document?
    #9
    René
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/14 08:26:50 (permalink)
    He is fully aware that quirks can and do happen. What I cannot understand is that Cakewalk have not taken this philosophy on board. Especially not on the more expensive products (ie. DimPro). What is Cakewalk's policy if a user cannot get the product to work?


    Those things do happen for sure. They even happen 'internally': many times a QA tester has a 'magic system' where a bug happen exclusively. It's a very popular knowledge that "Developer boxes never crash", and "QA boxes don't do anything else but crashing".

    However, the amount of testing we've dropped in Dimension Pro and Rapture exceeds what has been in any rgc:audio product in an order of magnitude of 100 or so. It's a different world, and it's becoming more solid and better with each new release.

    Still, we might come with a demo for Dimension Pro and rapture at some point. The fact is that it's not just 'drop a dll on the web' and that's it, as we have DXi, DXi64, VST, RTAS for the PC, and VST, AU and RTAS for the Mac, soon to be multiplied by Universal Binaries and VST 2.4 factors. It's anything but a trivial job, where the return of investment is generally well down in the red, despite of popular belief.

    So we do have some plans for demos, but not immediately. Sorry about that.


    -René
    #10
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/14 12:12:00 (permalink)
    Wow! - Thanks for the reply, Rene!

    My reasoning was, if Sonar has demos, why not other products. But OK, I understand.


    H'm.
    Dunno what to do now.

    Decision 1: DimPro or Rapture?

    Facts needed to decide:
    a - Will they crash or not on my PCs?
    b - Does Rapture have the feature set I need? (cheaper)

    Decision 2: Buy now or wait?

    Facts a and b not available, so I guess: wait?

    Today I got my Sonar 5 upgrade. Perhaps with some luck the fault will not happen in S5.
    But I got my answer to my initial question, so I'll drop the matter now.

    I may start asking owners of Rap (when it comes out) what sfz-file error detection features it has, tho'.
    #11
    lawapa
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/14 21:24:52 (permalink)
    Since SF2 does not crash? Why not load up your wave file to sf2 and save out for use in SFZ. The sfz does also support the sfz format. I only have the sfz+ on my system (no sfz format support). I have 50, 60, 80 mb fonts loaded and working on projects using SFZ+ along with the Dimension Pro. I could convert them over to the sfz format and load them up but They are orchestral sounds that sound great as is. I would ask why a 10 mb wave file but you have your reasons ;)+)

    Would cyclone work for this purpose? Load up cyclone with that wave file and sequence with that?
    #12
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/15 03:41:22 (permalink)
    Since SF2 does not crash? Why not load up your wave file to sf2 and save out for use in SFZ.

    Convenience. The sfz file format is so flexible and absolutely brilliant in so many ways.
    I only have the sfz+ on my system (no sfz format support).

    Then have a look at the free sfz. You don't know what you are missing.

    It is as simple and as complex as the problem you are facing, but no more. What I mean is, if you just want a drumkit, it is simple to set up. If, however, you are building a multilayer complex orchestra, it will do that, too. Naturally, it will be more complicated to do. But you are not faced with a monster like Kontakt2 when all you wanted to do is quickly make a latin percussion kit for a song.

    And you can have textfiles which, in fact, are templates for different types of instrument and, with a normal text editor, do a search and replace and voila, from a jazz kit you now have a rock kit.

    You can have all your individual wave files in a directory structure permanently on your hard drive. Each wave file only exists once. You create soundsets by calling individual sounds in the sfz text file. So suppose in the middle of composing you realize you need a second splash cymbal. Make a copy of your drum.sfz, add an entry with a path to splash2.wav and reload.

    Now you notice the new splash is too loud. Now what? Change the mix in your DAW? No! Open the sfz in a text editor, tweak down the level and reload!

    Try do that with SF2 players. Try do that with ANY sampler. I own two AKAIs. I would never dream of making any more than the most basic ot tweaks whilst the client is in the studio. Now I have no qualms, because even if I make a complete hash of it, I can always reload the original sfz file.

    It is so indescribably brilliant. I don't want to use anything else. Such a shame it crashes.

    Last night I installed my new S5 update. sfz crashes in that, too. In fact, if I load the supplied mini DimPro piano and run my mouse cursor up and down the sound strip in sfz, it crashes, too.

    I will definitely wait for Rapture, then start bugging people here to find out if it does what I need. Then the question will just be, do I get DimPro or Rap? And will I get my money back if it crashes, too?

    I would ask why a 10 mb wave file but you have your reasons ;)+)

    Not individual 10MB wav files; the entire sound set comes to a total of 10MB.

    Would cyclone work for this purpose?

    For simple drumkits as I have been describing, probably. But that was just to explain the convenience of the sfz format. For soundsets that contain a complete performance fiddle, no. But that's not the point. I have lots of samplers. It is the convenience of sfz I crave.
    #13
    lawapa
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/15 22:35:24 (permalink)
    That explains it all. I agree 100% The Awave editor I use to convert sf2 to sfz and well just about everything else allows me to do in sf2 a level change but it's different in that each sf2 takes up space. The sfz is different as you know very well.

    Dimension Pro uses the SFZ-2 spec which adds a lot. I'm still in the early stages of learning this most powerful language. And I do intend to ADD Rapture to my arsenal. I will say that my SFZ+ has never crashed my computer even though I've added in with as many instances as possible. Not a single glitch. While I was doing beta on the z3ta i had a few crashes but this was expected and reported. As well my D Pro is rock solid as of now. My only glitch was a save and overwrite on a preset. My fault ;)+). In my experiance support is solid to perfect. Your attraction to this format will insure you get at least Dpro. And if your experiance is anything like mine you'll be singing praise.
    #14
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/16 03:21:30 (permalink)
    I will say that my SFZ+ has never crashed my computer

    Correct. As I pointed out, sfz never crashes on SF2 files. Only crashes with sfz soundsets with wav (or ogg) files.
    post edited by JazzSinger - 2006/02/16 03:27:40
    #15
    Paradroid
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/16 03:26:48 (permalink)
    I will definitely wait for Rapture, then start bugging people here to find out if it does what I need.

    Why wait? From the sounds of it, you're more than happing to roll your own sfz files. Rapture supports a superset of the sfz spec featrued in the freeware player and has a damn powerful GUI to boot. Again, since you're already “get” what's so special about sfz, either Rapture or Dimension will be your friend. Just decide between a huge content library (Dimension) or more elements and GUI modulators (Rapture). But, really, you should just get both (I know I am…)

    I know you're nervous since the original sfz player crashed for you (totally unheard of in my experience) but as René pointed out, Dim & Rap have had far more testing thanks to the Cakewalk team. Remember, RGC was pretty much a one man band so it makes sense that the later sfz products would be more likely to function correctly on a wider range of systems.
    #16
    René
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/16 12:00:11 (permalink)
    Dimension Pro and Rapture have several differences, based on the kind of sound pallete they are aimed to create. The parameter ranges, matrix destination options and available parameters are different. Dimension Pro will play REX/RCy/RX2 files which Rapture won't. It also has the ability to drag and drop a midi file of the groove contents into the host, neither in Rapture. But for Electronica sounds, Rapture offers several new options.

    If you're exclusively going to play sfz files, you can pick any. You need to decide which one is best for you in case you think you'll be using the synthesizer editor to create your sounds. If it's Electronica, it's Rapture. If it's anything else, it's Dimension Pro.


    -René
    #17
    JazzSinger
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    RE: Trial versions pleaze please pretty pleeese, oh do say yes! 2006/02/17 05:10:11 (permalink)
    Thanks Paradroid and Rene.
    Dimension Pro will play REX/RCy/RX2 files which Rapture won't.

    I don't know what those are, so I probably won't miss them. But Rapture will still do .ogg files, like sfz did, won't it?

    I mostly just want .sfz files that call in .wav files; in fact, I want the good old sfz but with 16 channel multitimbral capability and stable when more than one instance is open. That is what I hope I will get.

    If you're exclusively going to play sfz files, you can pick any.

    Yup. That's what I needed to know. Thanks, Rene!

    (totally unheard of in my experience)

    Well, Cakewalk Support still hasn't tried the soundfiles I sent, so I think I'll nag Brett next week. I'm a bit embarrassed to push, since sfz is free, after all!

    But I have 4 separate machines, plus one other list member (Patrice) reports the same problem. My programmer's gut feel tells me some memory common to multiple instances is being overwritten. It never crashes when only one sfz is open. And SF2 files work, only the separated .ogg or .wav files called in by a .sfz file crash. I upgraded to S5. I tried the mini DimPro piano in parallel with an instance with some downloaded drumkits and setup that crashes, too, so it's not my wav files.

    I sometimes wish I could go to CW and show them. Being in Switzerland, that's not going to happen.
    but as René pointed out, Dim & Rap have had far more testing thanks to the Cakewalk team.
    I hope so. But if it is what I suspect, it may have slipped thro' because it is dependent on what else may be running at the same time because that pushes memory around. I may ask Cakewalk Presales if they have a guarantee policy should an item just not work on a customer's setup.

    I see my favourite music shop has DimPro, so I'm sure they will get Rapture as soon as it's out.
    If it's Electronica, it's Rapture. If it's anything else, it's Dimension Pro.
    It's Irish Folk. Lots and lots of articulations on the same note. That's what I need the multitimbrality for.
    post edited by JazzSinger - 2006/02/17 05:32:17
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