mcstringer413
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Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
Hi Folks,
I usually gain stage my audio tracks by going through each track individually and using the gain control at the top of each track to set it to peak at -16 dB or so.. So I read somewhere that you could use the normalize function to do this and it's a lot faster; just set the max level for the track and you're good to go. So I thought I would give it a shot. It was faster, but upon listening to the song after normalizing each track, the tracks were totally out of sync with each other. They were all over the place, time wise and totally unusable. So, I used my friend, ctrl-z, and proceeded to use the method that I know works.
So, do you think the normalize function is not working right or is this just not the right scenario to use it in? I didn't think it was supposed to screw up the timing like that.
Thanks for any input!
Mike
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PilotGav
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 14:41:21
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Normalizing tracks should never affect timing. I don't know how that would have happened.
FYI... I usually use the GAIN knob to gain stage. I have used Normalize when sent files that are too quiet though and it's worked fine. Peaking at -16 seems a bit low to me.
I usually have percussive parts peaking between -12 and -6, and smoother parts RMSing around -18.
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Anderton
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 14:52:23
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I normalize quite a bit and don't encounter timing shifts.
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mcstringer413
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 15:01:31
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Thanks for responding, Gavin. Yeah, I don't know what's up with that timing issue.
Yes, as I stated, I use the gain knob also for gain staging. I've found over time, that -16 dB works well for me for gain staging. If I have trouble hearing a track, I may adjust the gain knob slightly during the rough or static mix stage. So, a percussive part may end up peaking higher than -16. Also, when I start the static mix I bring all the faders down to around -6 dB or so and start from there. I just turn up the monitors if the mix seems to quiet.
Does anybody else have that timing problem with the Normalize function?
Thanks,
Mike
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tlw
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 17:18:36
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Only thing I've ever seen normalise do is what it's supposed to. I can't even begin to imagine how it might affect anything other than clip gain.
If you try it again in the same project does it happen again? Is it happening in just the one project or others?
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brundlefly
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 17:44:30
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IIRC, when you normalize more than one selected clip at a time, SONAR merges the new audio from all clips into a single new file and references the audio for each clip from that file henceforth. I would not be greatly surprised if there are situations in which the way a project is structured or was recorded over time, possibly with different record latency compensation factors in place in different sessions, could clash with the way multi-clip normalizing works to cause sync issues.
SONAR offers so many options for managing gain non-destructively, I can't imagine why anyone would want to destructively normalize files as a matter of course - with the the possible exception of building sample libraries,which I suspect is Craig's use case.
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mcstringer413
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 18:42:04
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I really appreciate the responses. Go figure, I cannot reproduce the problem since it happened earlier today. But I know I've encountered it in the past too. What brundlefly said is very interesting and, with that scenario, I can see perhaps this time shifting happening on a non-regular basis, which seems to jive with my experience.
All this said, I will stay the course and use the gain knob for gain staging and leave the normalize feature for that rare occasion where it may prove useful for me. Thanks again for your replies.
Mike
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Tim Flannagin
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 18:49:41
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I normalize virtually everything, but always on the last recorded clip only. I've never had any issues.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/08/31 18:59:40
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☄ Helpfulby rspagnuolo 2016/09/06 15:31:41
I don't normalize anything. unless there is a rare instance im working with small clips within a track that might be from different sources. normalizing is destructive. to me its almost like printing FX to a track. IN Normalizing, if the selection contains any loud signals, Normalize may not seem to have any effect. This is because the volume increase is determined by the loudest audio in the selection. If an audio clip contains segments that are too quiet and others that are loud, you should probably split off the quiet segments into separate clips and then normalize those. if you don't, your just wasting your time. I find a better method is using automation.
post edited by chuckebaby - 2016/08/31 19:29:00
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 11:33:44
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I also never normalise. As Chuck says, all it does is to raise the entire level of the clip with reference to the loudest peak.
If you have everything properly gain staged to start with there is no benefit whatsoever, and if it isn't, there are other, more appropriate tools than the blunt axe of normalising.
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mcstringer413
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 12:01:54
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I get it. As I said i was just experimenting after reading about this technique. The experiment worked. I learned that i probably will hardly ever use this tool again, and definitely not for gain staging. As I said in post #7, I will continue to use the tried and true method of using the gain knob or a trim plugin in the first insert slot as my gain staging tool for the start of a mix. I appreciate all the support and responses.
Mike
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chuckebaby
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 12:21:53
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mcstringer413
I get it. As I said i was just experimenting after reading about this technique. The experiment worked. I learned that i probably will hardly ever use this tool again, and definitely not for gain staging. As I said in post #7, I will continue to use the tried and true method of using the gain knob or a trim plugin in the first insert slot as my gain staging tool for the start of a mix. I appreciate all the support and responses.
Mike
Mike, what I do is use the Gain knob (like you do) but to take it a step further, sometimes I even automate the gain, because if you try to compress levels that are all over the place, the lower levels might seem okay, but when a loud level hits the compressor..it slams the snot out of it, over compressing the signal. if you have a level that is pretty tame across the board, you don't have to worry about this much. but on something like vocals where the dynamics are up and down, this is where gain automation comes in true. like this video made by Craig Anderton: [tube]http://youtu.be/DqyKdhH_M98 [/tube] this takes care of the gain staging aspect of things. now if you really want to get bipolar about it (such as what I do) you take it a step further and also automate levels. Volume automation differs in Gain Automation as volume automation comes after the FX. I use this for perceived loudness vs what my meter is telling me. anyway, hope this helped. happy sonaring
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chuckebaby
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 12:21:53
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mcstringer413
I get it. As I said i was just experimenting after reading about this technique. The experiment worked. I learned that i probably will hardly ever use this tool again, and definitely not for gain staging. As I said in post #7, I will continue to use the tried and true method of using the gain knob or a trim plugin in the first insert slot as my gain staging tool for the start of a mix. I appreciate all the support and responses.
Mike
Mike, what I do is use the Gain knob (like you do) but to take it a step further, sometimes I even automate the gain, because if you try to compress levels that are all over the place, the lower levels might seem okay, but when a loud level hits the compressor..it slams the snot out of it, over compressing the signal. if you have a level that is pretty tame across the board, you don't have to worry about this much. but on something like vocals where the dynamics are up and down, this is where gain automation comes in true. like this video made by Craig Anderton: this takes care of the gain staging aspect of things. now if you really want to get bipolar about it (such as what I do) you take it a step further and also automate Volume levels. Volume automation differs in Gain Automation as volume automation comes after the FX. I use this for perceived loudness vs what my meter is telling me. and paying caution to the wind making sure im not going in to the red. anyway, hope this helped. happy sonaring
post edited by chuckebaby - 2016/09/01 12:44:37
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mcstringer413
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 12:52:36
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chuckebaby
on something like vocals where the dynamics are up and down, this is where gain automation comes in true.
like this video made by Craig Anderton:
Thanks, Chuck, that is a good workflow. Yeah I recently started using clip gain on the vocals before I added any other processing. I watched several videos of Pro Tools users doing this. Of course, in Pro Tools you visually see the size of the waveform change as they add the clip gain automation. (I wouldn't mind having this feature in Sonar). But it is rather easy to use clip gain in Sonar. And I also do a little volume automation at the end of a mix if needed. Not really related, but I recently was able to mix a song from David Glenn for little $ as a sample of what his Mix Academy is all about. i have to say, he is an automation animal. His mixing process seems so complex to me that I really felt like a beginner after watching him mix the song. Even his rough static mix had automation. The end result was good, but I question whether all that automation and gazillions of plugins were necessary. Don't get me wrong, he is very talented and skilled at mixing. Anyway, thanks so much for offering your help and knowledge. Mike
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Anderton
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 13:13:08
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brundlefly
SONAR offers so many options for managing gain non-destructively, I can't imagine why anyone would want to destructively normalize files as a matter of course - with the the possible exception of building sample libraries,which I suspect is Craig's use case. That certainly is my "indispensable" use case. However, I also normalize destructively sometimes as a matter of personal preference. For example, I'll work on phrasing with vocals and adjust levels either through normalization or gain changes. I rarely normalize to 100%, usually it's some lesser amount. I also normalize tracks sometimes when working with specific presets on dynamics processors so the input level is consistent. Part of this is probably a reflexive habit from being raised with tape, where "audio is audio." I like having a WAV file that inherently incorporates changes, and thus simplifies the amount of real-time processing that needs to be done.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 14:11:53
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I've been using Normalize , mostly in Wave Lab for 15 years, to me it's like, make up your mind johnny, this is what this should be and print it. As far as destructive goes, you always have a back up if something does go wrong. But after normalizing thousands of audio tracks I've never had to go back. It's possibly the best tool ever invented for how I like to work. I do a lot of live recordings. Choirs etc. I don't like to use Sonar's Normalize function as it is pretty basic. In a wave editor it will tell you what you peak is first so you can make intelligent decisions. You choose "find peak level" and it will report back. Sonar doesn't have this option as of yet, but I'm still optimistic that they will eventually add this as a feature. I might use the Gain function on parts of vocal tracks where the singer got off mike as apposed to running a volume envelope, both do the same thing for me. It's more of a visual piece of work. I'll examine the wave form and look for low spots and bring them up to match the adjoining parts. Once again this is much more accurately done in a Wave editor. So I will often open the track in the Wave editor to fix an uneven audio track. The end result is a nice even track that needs no compression or volume automation. Just my way of working, that's all. We certainly have dozens of ways we can get the same job done, all are correct, all get to the same place. And Normalizing is a good tool,,, just not very well presented in Sonar.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2016/09/01 14:43:57
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Anderton
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/01 15:03:21
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Cactus Music
In a wave editor it will tell you what you peak is first so you can make intelligent decisions. You choose "find peak level" and it will report back. Sonar doesn't have this option as of yet, but I'm still optimistic that they will eventually add this as a feature. I'm sure you know the following, but I mention it for others who don't. After SONAR has played through a track, you can right-click on the Peak indicator and choose "Go to Peak" to locate the peak value. This is handy if you want to match a clip's peak to this value.
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Maarkr
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/03 22:51:59
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this is interesting... I've almost never normalized anything... I've also never touched the gain knob or used gain automation. I'll use volume automation, and if that isn't enough, I'll destructively boost the gain +6db on that portion of the clip. I've always thought that you should USUALLY 1. avoid destructive processing and 2. use volume automation to balance the track volume?
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brundlefly
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/04 11:58:20
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Gain may be needed to get sufficient level going into FX, otherwise, Volume (and Volume offset) will usually suffice.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/04 13:06:54
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I think there's an unwarranted fear of the term destructive editing.. it does sound threatening doesn't it!
But it's like this. Some stuff we record is not gold, and fixing an audio track is par for the course as we work on projects that are not headed for the hall of fame. So making a decision to apply normalizing to most material is not going to destroy it! In 99.9% of the instances it's going to improve it. We have back ups and undo to fall back on anyways.
If I am working on a critical one of a kind track I most certainly will have a bunch of back up copies of that piece. I will also be backing up as I go. So if the .1% happens i's no big deal to go back and try something else. But after 100000000 of destructive processes I've yet to have to do this.
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joden
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/04 13:36:02
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chuckebaby
mcstringer413
I get it. As I said i was just experimenting after reading about this technique. The experiment worked. I learned that i probably will hardly ever use this tool again, and definitely not for gain staging. As I said in post #7, I will continue to use the tried and true method of using the gain knob or a trim plugin in the first insert slot as my gain staging tool for the start of a mix. I appreciate all the support and responses.
Mike
Mike, what I do is use the Gain knob (like you do)
but to take it a step further, sometimes I even automate the gain, because if you try to compress levels that are all over the place, the lower levels might seem okay, but when a loud level hits the compressor..it slams the snot out of it, over compressing the signal.
if you have a level that is pretty tame across the board, you don't have to worry about this much.
but on something like vocals where the dynamics are up and down, this is where gain automation comes in true.
like this video made by Craig Anderton:
this takes care of the gain staging aspect of things.
now if you really want to get bipolar about it (such as what I do) you take it a step further and also automate Volume levels. Volume automation differs in Gain Automation as volume automation comes after the FX.
I use this for perceived loudness vs what my meter is telling me. and paying caution to the wind making sure im not going in to the red.
anyway, hope this helped. happy sonaring
Just trie that in the latest version of Splat, andit doesn't work like the video??
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Klaus
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/04 15:54:39
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Works here with latest SONAR version. Steps work exactly as shown in video.
As a test:
You can do the same adjusting of clip gain by click and drag vertically on the lower half of a clip while holding Ctrl key.
You should see a red automation envelope for clip gain.
BTW, because it's mentioned in previous posts, this is about Clip Gain.
You can't automate the Gain Knob.
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joden
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/04 21:23:21
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Yeah I can do the gain thing but instead of the "square outline" shown in the vid I just get LOTS of dots, no straight lines?
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Klaus
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Re: Tried gain staging using Normalize.....woops!
2016/09/05 16:49:08
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joden
Yeah I can do the gain thing but instead of the "square outline" shown in the vid I just get LOTS of dots, no straight lines?
Hmm, that's weird. Usually, you'll see "a lot of dots" when writing automation in real time during playback, but using the method shown in the video, I've never seen any other result than the "square outline" as you described. It works here with the Move Tool (as shown in the vid) and also with the Smart Tool (selecting lower half of a clip instead of timeline). I'm running out of ideas, sorry, but hopefully some other members will take a look at your issue. Best, Klaus
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