konradh
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Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
When I hear a note that doesn't sound on pitch, I grab it and move it up or down to the right pitch. When I move the note, I see a note name and two numbers displayed; for example, G3(48) +13. (I just made up this example: i don't remember what note number G3 is.) I would think G3 and 48 are two different expressions of the MIDI note number, and +13 means the note is sharp by 13 cents. But here's what doesn't make sense: (1) Sometimes two notes right next to each other will display different values; (2) Sometimes a note shows a different value when I go back to it than when I move it; (3) sometimes when I move a note to what I am sure is the right pitch, it sounds several notes off; for example, when the display says C it actually plays back D#, and (4) vocal notes that are basically correct but just off a tad display note names that are way off; for example, a C that is just a tiny bit out of tune may display A when I grab it. I must be misunderstanding something. How does this work?
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chuckebaby
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 01:22:31
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cant help you much here..im just here for moral support saying i think its confising myself..isnt there an easier way they could have set this interface up?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 03:48:35
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I can't say I've seen completely erroneous info but the differences in cent values you are talking about I have seen. I have always assumed that the exact cent differential depends on whereabouts I grab the note line and that value is a reflection of the differential at that point. Presumably if a singer pitches at C it's never C3 (48) +0 for any length of time. It waivers up and down over that pitch. If I'm singing it hardly ever pitches correctly, more waivers I think.....  I guess what you see in V-Vocal is the result of that. I'm no authority by the way, all of the above is an educated guess or what I've always assumed, doesn't make me right of course.
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Twigman
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 05:05:46
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It would be great if I could actually see anything in V-Vocal as whenever I try to use it X1 crashes...
Problem reports filed
I gave up waiting for something to be done about it, bought melodyne and find I have problems with that as a plugin too.
I'm almost tempted to throw the towel in and go buy a Mac and Logic.
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LJB
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 05:11:12
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Hi Konradh,
cant really help you with that, but as a sincere tip, use your ears rather than the numbers as very very often what the human voice does and what a screen says differ. Biggest trick I learnt (and I use V-Vocal very often), is to listen and not look at the screen, with all editing judgments.
Ludwig
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rbowser
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 10:05:15
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Hi, Konradh - LJB's advice is great. Relying too much on the visual feedback from any plug-in can mess you up. Look at the basic things you need to see, like where the knobs are --but then grab them, and use your ears. The anomalies in VV that you described are somewhat familiar to me, but I can tell from your post that you're way over-thinking VV. --You have a note, it sounds flat. Grab its yellow bar and move it up--but it's never going to be very far away. No need to look for the note name, just nudge the note towards the nearest note. Don't get hung up on the + and - cents of tuning that VV displays - As FBB said, those readings will be different over the course of a held note, because of vibrato. If you really want to get a note exactly to the precise note as displayed in VV - grab the vibrato control and completely flatten the note so its robotic, with zero fluctuation. Then you can move that yellow line to an exact note position, and it stays steady for the duration of the note. If you've really done that to a vocal that's supposed to sound natural, re-apply the vibrato, but maybe to a different degree than it was originally. BUT - really - the best method is to grab, and Gently nudge, and listen. SORRY no paragraph breaks - in Firefox, forgot to do it in Chrome. RB
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stevec
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 10:45:48
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Just to add... I've found that it sometimes helps to grab the start or end of a note and drag it up and and down independent of the entire note itself. IOW, make the line sit at an angle, particularly if you've already dragged the entire note and it still doesn't sound "right". There are times when the initial "push" from the vocalist can be a bit sharp, but by the end it may fall a little flat. By changing the angle of the line you can sometimes get a good "average" without overdoing the whole thing.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 11:08:46
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Yes stevec - a technique I use quite a bit.
Also, never forget the 'T' tab - use it to line up words so that they fall where they should! (especially on harmonies)
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 14:18:46
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Thanks for all the advice, guys. So far, I have had better luck with the TC Helicon VoiceWorks Plus--but of course, it lacks the visual feedback. This may start a firestorm of controversy, but does anyone think Melodyne or Antares would be better for visual pitch correction? Keep in mind, that I am a bit OCD about music and check the velocity of every MIDI note, so I am either insanely obsessed or an artistic perfectionist--depending on how you look at it.  I am also a songwriter and arranger who was not blessed with great singing ability and who wants to present material in the best way possible. (Hiring singers has been an exercise in frustration as they all want points just for doing a demo, and insist on singing the song they way they want instead of how it was written. More power to them, but I still have my projects to complete. )
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RevBob
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 14:18:48
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I had to use V-Vocal on an awful vocal take recently and I never used it before. Before I got buried in a day's worth of fixing this pitchy vocal and backing tracks I did 2 things. Read the section on it in the Power Sonar X1 book (have it on my Nook, great for taking notes and book marking sections BTW)and then searched YouTube for videos of people using it. It was a great experience, actually fun to use which took the pain out of the task at hand.
Suggestion: Use these settings - Formant 0 Note 75 Vibrato 100 Sense and have it auto correct then fix individual notes by ear in small increments.
Speeds up the process.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 14:51:25
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Suggestion: NEVER use auto-correct - make your adjustements manually and only "fix" the notes that are audibly out of tune.
Work in short clips and bounce each one down once you're happy with it
Make sure each clip is clean i.e. topped & tailed and free of bleed from other instruments
Don't correct notes so that they fall exactly on the line. A bit of natural variation sounds good! (Well, it did for the first 100 years of recording)
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 15:52:32
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Hey, RevBob, You wrote:
Formant 0 Note 75 Vibrato 100 Sense
Sorry, which number goes with which thing?
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 15:59:56
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Agreed. The visual is to get in the area really, Ears over eyes is key. sometimes, even, when a note isn't exactly on the mark, it might actually sound more in tune, sometimes because of the vibrato or the tone of the note sung. Lance
LJB
Hi Konradh,
cant really help you with that, but as a sincere tip, use your ears rather than the numbers as very very often what the human voice does and what a screen says differ. Biggest trick I learnt (and I use V-Vocal very often), is to listen and not look at the screen, with all editing judgments.
Ludwig
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rbowser
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 16:11:48
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Another VV tip - If you've shifted a note, go to the Formant window and shift in the opposite direction just so slightly. It's logical - a note pushed up has lost its natural Formant, so you bring it down a tad, and just the opposite- a note pushed lower, needs its Formant shifted up slightly. I'm talking about in the +/- 1 through 4 range. You'll be impressed how much more natural your shifted notes sound once you've combated the Mickey Mouse or Darth Vader syndrome (depending on direction of shift). RB
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stevec
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 17:00:40
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once you've combated the Mickey Mouse Hehehe...
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rbowser
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 17:10:50
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hehehe--Good one, Steve - I didn't even think of my Avatar when I wrote that post! That poor old Mickey puppet looks like he's been in combat a few times, don't he though? RB
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 18:04:14
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Interesting comments and viewpoints here, but I am trying to understand how to move a vocal to an exact note. For example, if the melody calls for a middle C, I want to know how to move the sung note to middle C (261.626 Hz) plus or minus a few cents. I understand there are various artistic considerations and there are some good thoughts expressed here; but I need to know how the function works technically so I can decide how and when to apply it artistically. In the case of V-Vocal, I do not understand the note names or the numbers displayed when I am moving a note: they do not seem to be consistent. In the YouTube videos, the presenters just grab notes and move them, seemingly with understanding. Second issue: sometimes when using the auto-correct feature, two notes that should be different (e.g., B and C) end up as the same note (e.g., B). When I grab the wrong one, both notes move. Again, I understand some people do not like to use auto-correct, but there are cases in which I would like to use that as a rough fix and then hand-correct certain spots. I will reread all the documentation and see if I can figure it out. No one asked me, but my opinion of auto-correcting vocals is the same as it is for sequencing parts, quantizing drums, compressing vocals, or punching in to fix bad performances. They are all just tools that have their place. (We don't hear much controversy today about the Beatles using ADT.)
post edited by konradh - 2011/10/10 18:14:47
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stevec
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 18:16:09
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That poor old Mickey puppet looks like he's been in combat a few times, don't he though? Uh huh. 
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rbowser
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/10 18:19:12
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Replying on Firefox--no paragraph breaks, sorry. If you look at the left, it's showing you the pitches. Voices have vibrato, so it's impossible to get an entire note precisely, robotically perfect. The note will waver as a sine wave above and below the mark. Grab the vibrato control and temporarily flatten the wave so it's flat-line horizontal. Then you can move the note precisely to C. Go back and bring back at least some of the vibrato, unless you want the machine, techno sound. With your example of C - the singer isn't going to be very far off. All you need to do is grab the yellow bar and move it up--a pop-up will tell you when you're perfectly on the C. RB
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bitflipper
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 00:21:54
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...my opinion of auto-correcting vocals is the same as it is for ...quantizing drum Good analogy. We all know how quantizing drums can totally frack up a perfectly good song. Letting V-Vocal (or any other pitch corrector) fix your pitch automatically is similarly placing way too much faith in dumb software! Don't worry about adjusting to the exact note pitch. Seriously. It just isn't necessary or even desirable - ever. (And don't even bring up T-Pain, because if you're after that kind of product, we're done here.) No other instrument in your song is pitch-perfect, but you don't even notice. That's true even if you're playing samples. For voice it's an even more elusive target, because of natural pitch variation. No sung note can possibly be exactly on pitch for its entire duration - that's why V-V gives you averages. Pitch variation in voices and instruments is not only natural, it is extremely beneficial. It's why a double-tracked vocal sounds fat. It's why David Gilmour's guitar solos sound so rich and operatic (he double-tracks most of them). It's why everything Jeff Lynne produces with acoustic guitars sounds so good (e.g. listen to Tom Petty's double-tracked 12-string, an instrument designed to be impossible to tune). What I'm making a case for here is don't even look at those markings on the V-V edit window. They mean nothing. Actually, they're worse than nothing, as they can be misleading, causing you to make unnecessary "corrections". So ignore them. Look away from the screen while auditioning the part. If nothing audibly jumps out at you as being noticeably off, just move on to the next phrase.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 03:59:26
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I would use the notes on the left in the pane and not the crazy surgical numbers on the bottom right. I have never used those numbers on the bottom right, and I am VERY good at editing vocals in any vocal editor. I am not saying this to brag, but to make the point that you REALLY do not need those overly precise numbers. The notes on the left (C, D, E etc.), combined with the grid and your ears is all you really need man. Lance
konradh
Interesting comments and viewpoints here, but I am trying to understand how to move a vocal to an exact note. For example, if the melody calls for a middle C, I want to know how to move the sung note to middle C (261.626 Hz) plus or minus a few cents.
I understand there are various artistic considerations and there are some good thoughts expressed here; but I need to know how the function works technically so I can decide how and when to apply it artistically.
In the case of V-Vocal, I do not understand the note names or the numbers displayed when I am moving a note: they do not seem to be consistent. In the YouTube videos, the presenters just grab notes and move them, seemingly with understanding.
Second issue: sometimes when using the auto-correct feature, two notes that should be different (e.g., B and C) end up as the same note (e.g., B). When I grab the wrong one, both notes move. Again, I understand some people do not like to use auto-correct, but there are cases in which I would like to use that as a rough fix and then hand-correct certain spots.
I will reread all the documentation and see if I can figure it out.
No one asked me, but my opinion of auto-correcting vocals is the same as it is for sequencing parts, quantizing drums, compressing vocals, or punching in to fix bad performances. They are all just tools that have their place. (We don't hear much controversy today about the Beatles using ADT.)
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Skyline_UK
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 05:22:48
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I've never ventured into V-Vocal as I used to rely on Melodyne Plugin. Celemony discontinued that product and I had no option to 'upgrade' to Melodyne Editor which crashes in Sonar after five minutes or so, so it's useless to me. This thread prompted me to take a look at V-Vocal and I'm more likely to give it a try since watching these two tutorial videos which greatly de-mystify its GUI and capabilities; highly recommended: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Ze9ArJeII http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WjrBsBYfac
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 05:35:04
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konradh
Second issue: sometimes when using the auto-correct feature, two notes that should be different (e.g., B and C) end up as the same note (e.g., B). When I grab the wrong one, both notes move. Again, I understand some people do not like to use auto-correct, but there are cases in which I would like to use that as a rough fix and then hand-correct certain spots.
If you click and drag across a region on the V/V window (so it changes colour to a lighter grey), you'll find this has the effect of placing extra nodes on the yellow line, so when you drag it up/down, it will do so independently of the remaining part of the note.
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Twigman
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 06:26:07
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Skyline_UK
I've never ventured into V-Vocal as I used to rely on Melodyne Plugin. Celemony discontinued that product and I had no option to 'upgrade' to Melodyne Editor which crashes in Sonar after five minutes or so, so it's useless to me.
This thread prompted me to take a look at V-Vocal and I'm more likely to give it a try since watching these two tutorial videos which greatly de-mystify its GUI and capabilities; highly recommended:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Ze9ArJeII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WjrBsBYfac
Good luck with that. I went to melodyne editor because V-Vocal crashes X1 for me......and despite melodyne only working for a couple of minutes at least it actually starts to work, V-Vocal doesn't.
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 07:03:06
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Thanks again to everyone who offered advice on how to use V-Vocal. For those speaking out against use or over-use of V-Vocal, Melodyne, or Antares, I can only say again that I want to know how to use the tool and will make artistic judgments on when and how much to apply it. For the record, if I ever used a Cher effect, it would be as a joke. I remember when producers struggled to get drum parts exactly on beat. After quantizing and drum machines were available, they started worrying about how to make drums sound human. For me, on time and on pitch are always good. The slight variations that make doubling or chorusing sound good are not off-pitch in my book.
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daveny5
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 09:23:10
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Don't know about the numbers offhand, but I like to use the pencil tool. That seems to be the quickest way to correct the pitch.
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 09:45:36
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Thanks, Dave. I am not having any luck finding documentation on the number thing—don't see it in the help or in the X1 Power book—so I will follow the advice about using the reference scale on the left and the pencil as needed.
Lest my earlier comment be misunderstood, I thought the "Cher effect" on Believe was cool, but cool because it was something unique. I am now sick of that sound. (I know I heard the effect before Cher on a song by a band that, to me, was reminiscent of 10cc, but I can't remember or find their name.)
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bitflipper
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 11:12:06
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A buddy of mine recorded an album where the engineer insisted on quantizing some handclaps.
They'd gathered up everybody in sight around the studio to contribute to the handclap track in order to get a nice ensemble effect. But of course not everyone in the group had perfect rhythm, so the engineer spent hours carefully cutting and nudging handclaps until they were nice and orderly and perfectly in time.
My friend was then furious when a subsequent magazine review criticized him for using sampled handclaps!
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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RevBob
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 13:31:15
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Sorry, konradh...
Formant 0, Note 75, Vibrato 100, Sense 30
@ Bristol - I should have qualified my statement better. I have never used any pitch correction in 25 years - the key to a good recording is a good take and clean punch-ins when necessary. The above is recommended if you're stuck with a bad take. It doesn't change the Vibrato or Formant, just affects the general pitch of a bad performance a little. Truly bad notes will still be adjusted. Any adjustment more than a 1/4 tone will start to sound unnatural.
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konradh
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Re:Trying to Make Sense of V-Vocal
2011/10/11 14:56:32
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Thanks, RevBob, and that is a really awesome picture.
The definitions of Note and Sense both talk about the degree of autocorrection. How are they different?
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