Two keyboards/controllers instead of one

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Paul P
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2015/09/26 11:05:56 (permalink)

Two keyboards/controllers instead of one

I currently have a cheap M-Audio Oxygen 8 which is only 2 octaves wide.  Good for browsing samples, but limited for playing.  I'm hoping to acquire a keyboard with a lot more octaves so I can play two-handed and use key switches.  I've had a regular wood piano all my life and I'm used to it.
 
Instead of buying an 88 key controller, I've been thinking of a 61 key controller (like the A800Pro) which would permit two-handed playing, but might be a bit tight for also key switching.  Can I use my Oxygen 8 for control keys and the 61 key controller for playing ?
 
I have a feeling doing so might also make a bit more sense ergonomically and functionally, or do you have to play the switches and left hand at the same time and having them close together is an advantage ?  Or does using key switches for expression limit you to playing the music with the right-hand only ?
 
post edited by Paul P - 2015/09/28 21:56:01

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    Wookiee
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/27 14:10:30 (permalink)
    Do not know but I use my Keystation Pro 88 and a Peavey 16X controller together.  I do not think you can overlay them never tried.

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    Paul P
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/27 19:45:06 (permalink)
     
    Seems to me if both keyboards are sending on the same midi channel they could be seen by Sonar as if they were a single instrument ?
     
    I'm really only thinking about the piano keys, not controller buttons and switches.
     
    Mostly about using my Oxygen 8 for key switches though I'm sure I'll think of more uses for it.

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 01:35:42 (permalink)
    Paul P
     
    Seems to me if both keyboards are sending on the same midi channel they could be seen by Sonar as if they were a single instrument ?
     



    Yes, it's all a matter of how you set it up in Sonar. I use up to 3 keyboards in the creative workflow and jump between sounds by changing the MIDI channels, sometimes 2 of them end up being assigned to the same channel, so I could use either one ... haven't seen any negative impact from that yet ...

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    Paul P
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 08:59:02 (permalink)
     
    Thanks FreeFryBertl, I just wanted to make sure.
     
    Now if the canadian $ would just go back up.  The A800Pro is suddenly 100$ more than it was a month or two ago.
     

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 09:52:41 (permalink)
    Paul P
     
    Now if the canadian $ would just go back up.  The A800Pro is suddenly 100$ more than it was a month or two ago.
     



    yeah these currency inflicted price changes are nuts ... the Stingray 5 I bought last year now goes for additional 1000 € (!!!) ... I'm glad I invested in that one last year ... of course, I did not need it, but now I would not want to miss it :-)

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    kitekrazy1
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 19:07:31 (permalink)
     I don't think you can combine two midi in devices to record the same channel at the same time.   

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    tlw
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 19:44:47 (permalink)
    Even if the controllers are set to the same channel, Windows and Sonar will see them as two different devices because each will set up and communicate through its own MIDI ports.

    One work-around is to point two MIDI tracks at the same synth. MIDI track 1 handles one MIDI controller's data and MIDI track 2 handles the other controller. If both controllers and tracks are set to the same channel you should then be able to use one controller as keyboard and the other as a source of CC data. They may even work as two keyboards/octave splits, but in that case the MIDI notes will be spread over two tracks.

    Using two controllers for the same synth generally means you need both tracks open in the piano roll etc. at the same time to edit the data.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 20:30:45 (permalink)
    What TLW said, Each midi track can only select one midi input source at a time. 
    If you were using real midi ( DIN) ports then you would need a midi merge box like a Yamaha  ymm2.  
    I think the 2 midi track trick might work but I would think only the focused track with the input echo lit would be heard. 
     

     
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/09/28 20:41:24

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    LunaTech
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 20:39:06 (permalink)
    Interesting....
     
    But what about midi Omni... Where any device transmitting a channel would be picked up. For example I have a pad controller, Edrums and midi keyboard all set to trigger and control drums.. Would that not be an option?

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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 21:37:52 (permalink)
    The different opinions pushed me to dig a bit deeper and I found the following in the X2 and X3 online documentation (I can't access for more recent Sonars, but I presume the text is unchanged) :
     
    "You can also have multiple performers on different controllers sending MIDI data to either the same synth or multiple synths."
     
    and
     
    "To play one synth at a time from one or more MIDI keyboards
    Since this is SONAR’s default behavior, simply use the UP ARROW or DOWN ARROW keys on your computer keyboard to choose the current track (the current track has a lighter track name background color), and use the Track Inspector or Console view to choose the synth you want to play by using the track’s Output, Bank, Patch, and Channel fields. With the default behavior, all MIDI input from all ports and channels is merged and sent through the current track. Notice that the track’s Input field says Omni."
     
    post edited by Paul P - 2015/09/28 21:53:05

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    BassDaddy
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/28 22:12:50 (permalink)
    This very interesting. It opens up things I haven't thought of.

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    azslow3
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/29 05:30:07 (permalink)
    Let me try to describe the whole picture:
     
    The input of MIDI track in Sonar can either be ONE device or ALL devices (Omni). But not some subset of them.
     
    Input MIDI is transfered to VST in case "Input Echo" is set. By default, it is in "Automatic" mode, so Echo is active on focused track and deactivated on all other. But Echo can be switched to "Always active" easily.
     
    If we have E-Drum and 2 keyboards and we want control Drum VST and E-Piano VST.
     
    1) if we play/record only one of these VSTs per time, we can set all tracks input to Omni and leave Echo in automatic mode. The data from all 3 MIDI sources goes to focused track (the result is recorded into one clip, independent from the device). We change the VST we control by moving focus (as already mentioned by keyboard, but also by mouse or with Control Surface plug-in by any particular (MIDI) keyboard key, controller or drum pad).
     
    2) if we want control Drum VST by E-Drum and E-Piano VST by 2 MIDI keyboards simultaneously, we can not use Omni on ANY track since this track will use ALL devices than. So we need 3 tracks, one with E-Drum (only!) as the input and 2 for each MIDI keyboards with related Inputs (note that Global Omni is not the same as Device Omni, the last just means all MIDI channels from one device while the first means all devices). We also should force "Input Echo" always active for all 3 tracks. We set output from the first stack to the Drum VST and outputs from the second and the third tracks to E-Piano VST.
     
    When recording there will be 2 separate tracks for E-Piano. It is possible to see them both in the PRV or just merge them (by MIDI bouncing the track with all (also overlapped) MIDI clips).
     
    Note: when using Omni inputs, check that your VSTs have no "MIDI Output" enabled. VST MIDI Outputs are valid MIDI track inputs, so they can "leak" into Omny tracks! Example: if E-Piano VST has "MIDI Output" active and we use approach 1 (with Omni inputs). Initially everything is fine. But once we have recorded E-Piano and have switched the focus to the Drum track, E-Piano MIDI track data can leak throw E-Piano VST to our Drum track.That does not happened all the time, since most VSTs are not sending MIDI on the output, even when it is enabled. But once you get the effect, it is confusing.
     

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    Paul P
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/29 11:06:36 (permalink)
     
    Thanks azslow3 for such a complete explanation.
     
    So we can either record both piano keyboards into a single midi track if it's the only instrument being recorded, or record into two separate midi tracks which can eventually be merged back into one.  Looks good.
     
     
     
     
     

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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/29 12:21:53 (permalink)
    I use this MIDI merger, which allows me to drive my VoiceLive Touch unit from two keyboards at once.
     

    There are also 4- and 8-channel versions, the latter being a rack-mount. It's powered from the keyboard so no batteries or wall-warts needed. Just make sure at least one of your controllers can power an external device (one of my keyboards can't, so I have to make sure to plug the one that does into the In1/Power input).
     
    This is just one of the reasons I prefer DIN connections over USB for MIDI.


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    tlw
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/29 15:38:42 (permalink)
    Personally I prefer USB to hardware MIDI merging. Simpler to deal with as each device has its own port, MIDI can easily be merged or routed as required in software, and no need to shell out on a merge box.

    As for the MIDI "Omni" setting, personally I avoid it because I have quite a bit of MIDI hardware, including sequencers which transmit MIDI while running and synths which transmit MIDI CCs when tweaked, so selecting "omni" as a track input is a thing I'm careful to avoid.

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    Glyn Barnes
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/29 15:47:47 (permalink)
    I use 3 keyboards, an A-PRO 800, my old Roland XP-10 synth and AKAI LPK-25 mini keys. I have no trouble using two of the keyboards to extend the range, the LPK-25 is mostly used for key switches.
     
    Depending on the VSTi even if the keyboards are set to different channels this still works if the input to Sonar and the VSTi is set to OMNI.
     
    The A-PRO and LPK25 each uses their own USB connection and the XP-10 is connected via my Quad Capture MIDI port.
    post edited by Glyn Barnes - 2015/09/29 15:59:44

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Two keyboards/controllers instead of one 2015/09/30 14:06:26 (permalink)
    The OP mentioned considering buying an A-PRO controller, which already has a MIDI merge option build in ... so you could plug the 2nd controller into the MIDI IN port of the A-PRO and flip the MIDI MERGE switch on the left hand side of the keyboard and merge MIDI coming from the controller with MIDI from A-PRO itself ... all send to Sonar via USB ...
     
    picture available at
    http://www.roland.com/products/a-800pro/
     

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