cparmerlee
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Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
I am punching out individual WAVs for songs from an hour-long concert. I used the SPLIT tool to separate the songs. And then I used the slip edit to start the sound right at the beginning of the music, and likewise for the end of the song. Issue #1, the resulting WAV file seems to have dead space for that entire slip edit space. This is true whether I go to WAV or MP3. When doing the File-Export-Audio, I have only selected the clips for that song. I kind-of understand it working this way, but it really makes no sense. What is the point of cropping the ends if they end up in the file anyway? Then I found the Clip - Apply trimming command. I thought, "OK, that's the answer. It does exactly what I want." Per the SONAR doc, "This command lets you permanently delete any data from a selected clip that is hidden by a slip editing edit.". Perfect, right? WRONG. When I export after the Apply Trimming, it STILL has that dead space. I think nothing short of putting in a hard split will fix that. Issue #2, I seem to get a little blip of sound right at the beginning of most of the exported WAV files, even though that is supposed to be silent. I have looked at the various options on File-Export-Audio, and I don't see anything that would seem to address either of those problems. So what I am doing now is going through a completely separate post-processing step of cropping each of those WAVs using Audacity. Has anybody else seen this?
post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/07/23 09:53:36
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scook
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 22:29:26
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You need to set a time range to export in addition to selecting the tracks. You might to to add a slight fade on the clips if the audio was not cut when the wave was at a zero crossing.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 22:55:33
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scook You need to set a time range to export in addition to selecting the tracks. You might to to add a slight fade on the clips if the audio was not cut when the wave was at a zero crossing.
Thanks. When I select the clip to export (I have all the clips for that song grouped), it automatically selects the beginning and end as the time range. And that is working as expected now. I'm not even sure that Apply Trimming was necessary. So I think what was happening was that I originally selected the track, which set the time range to include the extra space. Sometimes I unselected and reselected before exporting (those worked) and other times I must have left the original time range in place (those had the extra space). So if I am careful to always reselect the cropped song before exporting, issue #1 is solved. And I seem to be making progress on issue #2 as well. It is a strange thing, It seems that there must be a playback buffer that contains some residue. And that residue is being dumped at the beginning of the WAV file. But the same residue shows up if I simply set the time cursor a couple of seconds in front of my song and hit the spacebar. It should be silent, but sometimes I hear residue. It sounds like the remnants of the last sounds that played. If I cycle the spacebar 3 or 4 times, it seems to clear out this buffer. Then if I export, my WAV starts clean (90% of the time, it seems). This is clearly a bug. There ought to be some operation to clear out that buffer before starting any new playback or export operation. So I think I have an acceptable workaround in place. Thanks for the tip. That answered why my results seemed to be intermittent.
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gswitz
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 23:15:54
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So, I know about the sounds you are talking about that end up at the beginning of bounces from where you last hit stop. Like the audio that was in the buffer just before you hit stop comes out of the buffer just after you hit play, even when you hit play in a new location in the tune. In preferences you can set it to play tails after stop. This can help in a lot of cases. For some midi stuff, I usually click on a little icon near the clock in the control bar that resets the audio engine. This will always 100 percent clear your audio buffers. When you are working with a very long project and exporting tracks, if you do File > Export > Audio > Tracks > Mono and uncheck most of the boxes about applying fx and automation etc, you can export the tracks of one tune to be imported into another project. It sounded like this was what you were trying to do. Did you find that the audio buffer was an issue with this? To avoid issues with the audio buffer, I often let an extra measure of nothing exist at the beginning of my project. Then if I bounce the project with audio in the buffer, I can just slip edit it out of the beginning of the track. There are probably better ways. I think the main purpose of maintaining the audio buffer is to be able to restart from where you stopped and pick up right where you left off. Obviously it is problematic when you move within the timeline or execute a bounce to tracks where the audio in the buffer is written to the start of the new wav. BTW, I never use Audacity for anything. I'm not sure why that is part of your workflow. You should be able to do everything in Sonar, unless you are changing to another OS (where Sonar doesn't work). On Linux I use Ardour.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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scook
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 23:16:02
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yes, there can be some buffered audio messing with the beginning of your exports. If you want to do back to back exports you need to allow for the buffers to flush.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 23:39:01
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gswitz BTW, I never use Audacity for anything. I'm not sure why that is part of your workflow. You should be able to do everything in Sonar, unless you are changing to another OS (where Sonar doesn't work).
Agreed. I was only going to use Audacity in order to get rid of the garbage in these WAV files, but I got to a work-around, so Audacity is not in the work flow at all now, I'm happy to say. I'll experiment with your ideas for clearing that audio buffer. I don't really understand why the buffer would not be cleared in every case automatically -- it could never be helpful, could it? -- but if there is a setting that will have effectively purge the buffer, that will be great. And just for clarification, I wasn't trying to re-import the tracks. I was just trying to put out WAV files so I could convert them to MP3s. I would export them directly as MP3s, but SONAR is EXTREMELY slow at that. Exporting to my SSD as WAVs is pretty quick, and then when I have all the songs exported, I can just run them through WinLAME to turn them into MP3s. That's a lot faster than using SONAR. But other than that, my entire workflow is under SONAR now. I'm elated. My improving workflow doesn't take too much longer than what I had previously done with Audacity (to break a concert into individual MP3s for each song) and the sound quality with SONAR sounds so much better. Thanks Cakewalk !! Now I am ready to move on to 8-track recording of concerts, which is only going to add about 20% more time to this workflow with SONAR, compared to processing stereo recordings :) One final question, if I may. Part of my workflow is to split any stereo WAVs into separate tracks so that I can apply effects to the channels independently if needed. For example, in my latest stereo recording, the bass trombone was obnoxiously loud in the left channel. The bass guitar wasn't high enough in the mix. I was able to compress the left channel and then boost the bass guitar with EQ on the right channel. Even though the bass guitar was playing from the left side, most of the material in the right side was higher frequencies, so it worked out well. With Audacity, there is a simple command to split a stereo track into two separate tracks. I can't seem to find a single command in SONAR to do this. So what I did was: 1) Clone the stereo track 2) Use Process-Effects-Gain to make the first track 100% left material, and likewise to make the second track 100% right material. 3) Convert stereo to mono for each of those tracks to save disk space, and adjust the pan settings hard left and hard right respectively. There must be a faster way. Am I missing something obvious?
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scook
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/05 23:57:49
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To convert a stereo track to two mono tracks from the Tracks menu in the Track view select Bounce to Track(s) with Channel format set to Split Mono
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gswitz
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 00:24:23
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Scook's got great answers. The reason to have the audio buffer remain loaded is if you are going to restart your listening from the exact point where you stopped listening. Otherwise, I don't see value in it. If you are restarting from the exact point where you stopped, you have reverb all loaded into the buffers etc from audio previous to your start point. I also think that VSTs cache audio outside of Sonar's control. The VSTs don't know where in the program you are. IMHO, Sonar should reset the audio engine (forcing the VSTs to clear cache) automatically when you move in the timeline after stopping listening. This would resolve this problem forever. Does anyone know why they don't? (I'm asking for a valid responses... nothing snarky).
post edited by gswitz - 2013/07/06 00:36:34
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 00:37:03
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gswitz Scook's got great answers. The reason to have the audio buffer remain loaded is if you are going to restart your listening from the exact point where you stopped listening. Otherwise, I don't see value in it. If you are restarting from the exact point where you stopped, you have reverb all loaded into the buffers etc from audio previous to your start point.
Well, I guess I can see that argument, but in practice, how do you actually even resume where you stopped? If you hit the spacebar, it takes up with where the cursor was last set, not where you stopped. Unless you could precisely move the cursor to exactly the previous stopping point, that buffer has the wrong data. It seems that SONAR should be able to tell if we are not resuming at that spot and purge the buffer automatically.
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scook
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 00:45:29
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Where a project restarts depends on how SONAR is configured. Better get used to the buffer issue, I doubt it will ever change. Also, if you know in advance that you are going to split tracks to mono, why not record them that way in the first place? Alternately, it is possible to avoid bouncing tracks, send the left and right sides of a track to separate buses for processing.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 00:49:06
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scook To convert a stereo track to two mono tracks from the Tracks menu in the Track view select Bounce to Track(s) with Channel format set to Split Mono
Cool !!! I had been looking everywhere in the Clips menu, but I didn't think to look in Tracks. The Bounce under clips doesn't seem to have any options, so I didn't think of "bounce" as being the solution, but that works great.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 00:59:02
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scook Also, if you know in advance that you are going to split tracks to mono, why not record them that way in the first place?
These are live recordings. I tried doing some live recordings with SONAR on a notebook. It was just too unreliable and too complicated for working under pressure. So the present recordings are 2- or 4-track on a Zoom H4n. I don't think that device has the option to save as mono tracks. I am looking at the next step being Allen Heath ICE16, which can record 16 tracks. It appears that box saves each channel as a separate mono WAV.
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gswitz
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 06:22:39
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Useful case for audio cache in Synths and VSTs: hit the space bar, ad a few automation nodes and then hit the space bar again (without moving the now time) .I can think of no useful case for wanting the cached audio data to follow the now time to a new position. Since there is a button you can hit to clear the cache/ reset audio engine, it seems to me that it would be easy to automate the triggering of this action when the time-line is moved from the place where you stopped your project. It is precisely because this should be so easy that I wonder if there isn't more to it. I'm not sure if causing all the plug-ins to reset has some performance cost and that Sonar has trouble determining when there might be cached data in the VSTs? Or maybe there is a specification for VSTs or midi synths that they are following and they don't want to break the spec? Perhaps for large project with lots of midi stuff, executing the reset takes a long time. I really don't know the answer here. This link shows the Reset and Audio Engine buttons on the Transport Module of the Control Bar.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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scook
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/06 08:44:15
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cparmerlee
These are live recordings. I tried doing some live recordings with SONAR on a notebook. It was just too unreliable and too complicated for working under pressure. So the present recordings are 2- or 4-track on a Zoom H4n. I don't think that device has the option to save as mono tracks.
There is an option on the audio import dialog to import as mono tracks.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/22 19:57:01
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Well, I thought this was solved, but today the file export started behaving badly in ways that I'm 90% certain were not happening before today. This morning I activated the MP3 license (following the 30-day free trial). I set up a simple project to test that and it failed with "The specified selection did not contain any audio data." This project couldn't be simpler. I added a single instrument track, input from my Midi keyboard, output to Master. There is no separate audio track. I attached TruePianos to that track, but the results are the same with any synth, I think. I then recorded the first two measures of Twinkle, Twinkle into measures 2 and 3. The problem is that the normal export procedure would be to click on the clip, which sets the time range to measures 2 through 3. Then File-Export-Audio. That fails every time. I realize there is no "audio" data per se, because it is just saved as MIDI and the audio is generated on the fly. However, here is the crazy thing. If I manually select anything OTHER than measures 2-3, the export works perfectly!? For example, if I select starting with the second beat of measure 2 through the end of 3, I get a proper WAV or MP3 containing the 7 selected beats. If I select starting with the last beat of measure 1 through measure 3, the export works and has all 8 beats of Twinkle in all its glory. I think the reason I never noticed this before is that I was always selecting a bunch of clips to include in the export. Can anybody repeat this test to verify I am not insane? This surely must be a bug. It makes no sense that it would work in every case EXCEPT the case where you select exactly the range corresponding to the clip's range.
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KPerry
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/23 03:05:11
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There are a couple of per VST settings you can make in the PlugIn Manager that may help the buffer clearance (Suspend on play/suspend on stop IIRC).
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/23 03:37:29
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"cparmerlee: This morning I activated the MP3 license (following the 30-day free trial). I set up a simple project to test that and it failed with "The specified selection did not contain any audio data." This project couldn't be simpler. I added a single instrument track, input from my Midi keyboard, output to Master. There is no separate audio track. I attached TruePianos to that track, but the results are the same with any synth, I think. I then recorded the first two measures of Twinkle, Twinkle into measures 2 and 3. The problem is that the normal export procedure would be to click on the clip, which sets the time range to measures 2 through 3. Then File-Export-Audio. That fails every time." AFAIK using Simple Instrument Tracks you should export by selecting the track clicking the track number ( and also selecting the desired range in the timeline above, if necessary), not the clip. I only use separate audio and MIDI tracks with soft synths so I'm not 100% sure.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/23 09:53:12
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Kalle Rantaaho AFAIK using Simple Instrument Tracks you should export by selecting the track clicking the track number ( and also selecting the desired range in the timeline above, if necessary), not the clip. I only use separate audio and MIDI tracks with soft synths so I'm not 100% sure.
Right. When I click on the clip, it automatically selects the track and it also sets the time range to be exactly the same beginning and end times as the clip. In that situation, File-Export-Audio produces the error dialog. But if I were to do a Select All (Ctl-A), in my example that would set the beginning of the range to the empty measure 1 and the end of the range to the end of the clip. And that works. It only fails when the time selection matches the clip exactly -- and obviously that is the case the really OUGHT to work. I never noticed this happening until after I activated the MP3 license. It seems unlikely to me that activating the license would cause this behavior, but it is possible. And just for another curiosity, you might notice my clip is just a little short of 2 bars. I copied that same clip to measures 4-5, which leaves a little gap at the end of measure 3. If I select both of those clips, causing the range to go from the start of the first clip to the end of the second clip, it also fails. Before I report this as a bug, it would be nice to know if anybody else can reproduce this problem. It only takes about 30 seconds to set up this test. I'll upload my project if that makes it easier.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Two peculiarities with File-Export-Audio
2013/07/23 10:06:21
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KPerry There are a couple of per VST settings you can make in the PlugIn Manager that may help the buffer clearance (Suspend on play/suspend on stop IIRC).
Sounds hopeful, but I am having trouble finding those settings. Can anybody provide a pointer? BTW, I have been using the reset button before exporting. It seems to work about 80% of the time. I don't really understand why it wouldn't work 100% of the time. === On edit, I found this article that describes those settings. http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Mixing.38.htmlAlways suspend on stop. When enabled the VST plug-in state will be set to suspended when the transport is stopped in SONAR. The default behavior is to keep VST’s always in a resumed state. Enabling this option will prevent effects tails from being heard when the transport is stopped. Always suspend on play. When Always suspend on Play is selected, the plug-in will reset when playback starts. Select this option for any VST instruments that have problems with stuck notes when stopping the transport. The Always suspend on Play property is also useful for effects that generate a tail, such as delays and reverbs. The effect is that you will hear the tails when the transport stops, but not when the transport rolls again. Always Suspend on Play is disabled by default.
post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/07/23 10:15:59
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