Katie_Katie
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 08:09:39
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Jim Roseberry
I run stabily at 1.5ms latency until my projects get a little bigger at which point I need to increase my latency to the extreme but I can still get pops and clicks on playback.
FWIW, The issue is not the 2496.
It's a simple card... but the drivers are solid.
If you're experiencing pops/ticks/etc... I'd trouble-shoot the system/configuration.
As long as your machine can keep up with the load, the audio should be glitch-free.
+1
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Twigman
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 09:19:09
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I am using an old PCI RMEHDSP9632
I am considering a new build and am looking at another RME solution the PCI-e + Multiface2 for my next build.
Having 8 inputs so easily accessible ( they are there on the HDSP9632 but what with the need for expansion boards to realise them a pain) I will at last be able to record an entire drumkit in one take!!
I would not hesitate to recommend RME to anyone...the drivers are solid
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Sepheritoh
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 09:49:14
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I can only talk from personal experience. I had Terratec PCI before and never had stability problems, but latency was an issue (16ms) and high noise level due to static humm I could not get rid of.
With my new computer I changed to Presonus FP10 firewire and would never look back. There was issues previously reported about the FW chip, so I made sure my new computer had the TI chip. Stability is 100%. I have no more hum and latency is at 2ms.
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UnderTow
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 11:36:10
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Sepheritoh
I can only talk from personal experience. I had Terratec PCI before and never had stability problems, but latency was an issue (16ms) and high noise level due to static humm I could not get rid of.
Wow. I could set my Terratec at 1 ms latency. (2.7 ms effective latency) Not that I could do much at this latency but it was possible. And yes, it was very stable. And yes the converters were not amazing (no hum or static though) but it was a relatively cheap card. Anyway, regardless of all that, upgrading the drivers for a card that is out of production for years makes them a great company. With my new computer... latency is at 2ms.
Go figure.  UnderTow
post edited by UnderTow - 2011/03/04 11:37:49
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Sepheritoh
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 15:49:49
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You are right. I could set them latency at 2ms but would not be able to do anything. The new computer surely also helped. I moved from a duel core to an i7, so that was surely a factor.
The static hum was something to do with the grounding of the computer and the soundcard. I tried it all, but it was persistent.
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DPTrainor
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 16:49:21
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Thunderbolt is the future. Everything is about to change...
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Sepheritoh
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 23:20:48
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How long will at take soundcard manufacturers to catch up this new technology?
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DPTrainor
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 23:47:45
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Well, Apogee is coming out with Thunderbolt interface shortly on the back on new Macbook release which has Thunderbolt. And rumor has it that PC laptops will be thunderbolt enabled by end of year. Then 2012 springs forth a new and exciting prospect for Pro Audio I/O. No more latency, bandwidth problems and tweaking that USB, Firewire have gone through. It's like PCI+ and more - Your audio / video channels will be intimately connected with your laptops "DMA" bus. High throughput, low latency - beyond what you actually will ever need. And Audio device manufactures, if they enable their devices for Thunderbolt, everything comes together. This is actually the most exciting thing that has happened in recent years. No longer will you have to worry about I/O speed to outboard audio / video devices. But, we shall see if it comes true. The death of USB 3.0 and Intel's new Direction with Thunderbolt is an indication. This is actually the best thing for us that has happened in recent years, in terms of I/O. I love this. Except I have to buy new devices - ****.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 23:48:02
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How long will at take soundcard manufacturers to catch up this new technology? I wouldn't expect anything soon... USB-3 has been available for a while now... and we've yet to hear a single announcement from the major audio interface manufacturers. Closest we've seen is "compatibility" offered by the RME USB units. USB-3 ports are a lot more common than Thunderbolt Currently, you'll find a Thunderbolt port on the brand-new MacBook Pros. That's it... Thunderbolt HDs aren't even available (yet) Great potential... but I wouldn't bet the farm on it "changing everything" (to borrow from another thread) in the near term.
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DPTrainor
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 23:54:42
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USB 3.0 is Dead. Being involved in the standards committee, it is a dead end road. I am telling you Intel has already made agreements with Dell, HP, Acer, etc for a full Thunderbolt transition. Accept it. Resistance is futile. Best Regards, Dan
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DPTrainor
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/04 23:57:28
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Yes, Jim - not in the near term - give it 1-2 years (maybe less). But, in my role I look 5 years ahead - sorry. Dan
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windsurfer25x
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 00:02:39
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Sonar X1 Expanded PE 64 bit
Intel i7 2600k oc'd, 16Gb DDR3 RAM, intel 320 SSD OS drive, 7200RPM HDDx2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit VS 100, Tascam US-2000, UAD2 - Izotope, Fabfilter, NI Komplete 7/Kore2 & +, Spectrasonics+ http://www.maskensmobilestudio.com
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Sepheritoh
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 00:02:42
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I am with Jim here. The standards committees are chasing technology and forgets about economic reality. Yes, USB3 is dead. Simply because a new technology is available before manufacturers can react. Buyers have 3 to 5 years replacing cycles for the people who are on the dge of technology. Masses (who pays the bills) follow 5 to 10 years. Manufacturers know this and will not make the mistake of investing before they have confidence that they can make money.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 00:50:17
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But, in my role I look 5 years ahead - sorry. Dan Hi Dan, FWIW, I have no problem at all if Thunderbolt takes over 5 years down the line. In particular, it should open performance doors for small form factor machines. If/when that happens, I'll be one of the early adopters (for obvious reasons). Coming from the perspective of having to work "here-and-now"... 5-years is so far out (especially when talking technology) it doesn't have much tangeable impact. IOW, If someone needs a rock-solid audio interface today... it doesn't make much sense to suggest waiting for an RME Thunderbolt unit. That wait could easily be 3+ years... I see Thunderbolt as an exciting/intriguing technology to watch unfold/evolve. It might be more exciting (tangeable) if you could actually purchase a Thunderbolt HD to use with a MacBook Pro. Currently, they're planned and in the works... (I guess that's my point)
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Bub 
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 01:05:42
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So where does this leave USB3? Is it dead, even though the interface is being sold on motherboards, before any hardware is going to be made?
On a side note about USB devices, M-Audio removed the 64 sample capability of the FTU in their latest beta drivers. Don't know if that will stick with the final release, if it ever comes. It's been a couple of years now since the last driver update from them.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 01:25:16
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M-Audio removed the 64 sample capability of the FTU in their latest beta drivers. High-Performance mode doesn't work in every scenario (ie: laptops that have higher-end video). What they need to do is educate and communicate I've played many gigs using the FTU8R (in high-performance mode) at the 64-sample ASIO buffer size. Never had a single pop/tick/glitch... Dumbing down the product is a **STUPID** solution to the problem. A problem that many of their end-users don't have.
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Bub
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 01:35:34
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We still have the current drivers, and these are beta so nothing is set in stone. :)
A couple of things that they did fix are, the ASIO Control Panel in Sonar pulls up the FTU Control Panel now, and I saw at least a 1ms drop in latency, and it's much more stable on my PC. I haven't had a single maudio.sys related hiccup since installing the beta driver.
Keep in mind, it's been a long time since they officially released an updated driver, there's bound to be some improvements.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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TomG
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 01:52:21
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Jim is right
Current technology is as follows:-
- RME FFUC USB 2.0 - 32 Samples = ~ 2.45ms each way real world measured CEntrance figures [ inlcuding safety buffers ]
- RME BabyFace USB 2.0 - 32 Samples = ~ 2.15ms each way real world measured CEntrance figures [ inlcuding safety buffers ]
- RME PCI-e / Echo PCI - 32 Samples = ~ 1.85ms each way real world measured CEntrance figures
I have tested and used the above on fasr DAW's with *massive* CPU loads [ e: 4.2gig I7 DAW's running CPU loads in the > %80 region ]
All work perfectly
Even if Thunderbolt allows for ZERO / 0 Sample Buffers, you still have you AD / DA conversion which will be in the order of 0.5ms <-> 0.8ms each way.
Result = a gain of ~ 1.0ms each way ..... nice ....but hardly " a new dawn ".
Whats my point ?
We already have technology that is so close to real-time-with massive-projects that it just doesnt really matter or justify any sort of waiting.
Enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TomG
PS: Still - like Jim, I'll jump onboard once RME have a unit !!!!!!
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jerry@macwood.com
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 03:03:41
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it is not the size of your interface that matter but teh quality of information fd into it. that being said focusrite safire 40 has been awesome firewire I was a 49 user and the pres are even better
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jerry@macwood.com
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 03:04:01
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UnderTow
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Re:USB Vs. PCI Vs. Firefire Interfaces
2011/03/05 05:44:46
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DPTrainor
Then 2012 springs forth a new and exciting prospect for Pro Audio I/O. No more latency, bandwidth problems and tweaking that USB, Firewire have gone through. It's like PCI+ and more - Your audio / video channels will be intimately connected with your laptops "DMA" bus. High throughput, low latency - beyond what you actually will ever need. And Audio device manufactures, if they enable their devices for Thunderbolt, everything comes together. This is actually the most exciting thing that has happened in recent years. No longer will you have to worry about I/O speed to outboard audio / video devices. But, we shall see if it comes true. The death of USB 3.0 and Intel's new Direction with Thunderbolt is an indication. This is actually the best thing for us that has happened in recent years, in terms of I/O. I love this. Except I have to buy new devices - ****.
Are you talking about laptop I/O? Because AFAIK Thunderbolt does nothing more than bring PCIe out of the box (ignoring video for now as this is about audio I/O). So it isn't going to give anything to a desktop computer that PCIe doesn't already give you except that it is outside of the box. Even for laptop I/O it isn't going to be any better than, for instance, a RME HDSPe connected through an Express Card port (32 samples of latency). Current technology is already more than enough as far as audio is concerned. Even good old PCI from 20 years ago is more than enough. (Legacy PCI 1.0 offers 133 MB/s of bandwidth. 128 audio channels at 48Khz and 24 bit uses less than 20 MB/s). In short, as far as I can tell, all this new interconnectivity doesn't have much bearing on audio. I suspect it only makes it more expensive as manufacturers have to redesign and re-engineer everything to fit the new standards... So as far as I am concerned, Thunderbolt for audio? Irrelevant. UnderTow
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