Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet?

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Keni
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2011/06/09 18:27:34 (permalink)

Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet?

Hi...

I'm sure this is nothing new, but I'm curious if anyone has gone anywhere with it yet...

Does anyone make a plugin that can somehow remove distortion from a recorded guitar? I know it seems outrageous to be able to, but so were most of the things we do today (30 years ago)...

Thanks...
Keni


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    bitflipper
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/09 18:45:15 (permalink)
    There are harmonic-tracking equalizers that can, to a limited extent, remove harmonic distortion.

    The only thing I have in my toolkit remotely like that is GlissEQ, which has a harmonic-series filter type but it's static. I have used it to reduce harmonic distortion from resonances, but to un-distort a guitar would require pulling apart the fundamental frequencies like Melodyne DNA, calculating the harmonic series and applying narrow filters. Complicated, but not a huge leap from where we are today. I can certainly envision such a thing a few years down the road.

    In fact I've been making such predictions for a while and wondering why they haven't come to fruition yet. Predictions of super-smart software that will allow us to diagnose any audio problem and automatically fix it. I see no reason why such things can't be done.

    Audio-specific DSP technology is still in its infancy and stuck in a conventional paradigm, waiting for other technological disciplines to be integrated such as pattern recognition and artificial intelligence. That will happen when either a) the market grows big enough to attract serious research, or b) we can identify a war-on-terror angle to pursue for government funding.



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    craigb
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/09 19:54:54 (permalink)
    Hmm...  I wonder if such a device would work on salesmen and politicians?

     
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    Keni
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/09 23:20:12 (permalink)
    Hi BF...

    Yes... To me it's much like nanobot tech.... "Simply" learning to deal with things on a smaller scale gives awesome new abilities.

    War on terror...? Hmmm... First thought? Maybe we could find a way that it might "un-distort" terrorist thinking? ;-)

    Truth tho, I expect such a device (the musical one that is...) relatively soon... I was actually hoping someone had one out that didn't work flawlessly... yet... Just to enjoy the tech advances... If there's money in it someone will chase it.

    Hi Craig...

    Yes... It might be another version of the un-terrorist version created for military use...

    Keni


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    bitflipper
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/10 10:42:18 (permalink)
    The way I look at it, digital audio is data, and technologies abound for analyzing data to reveal the hidden patterns within. Spy organizations use it to enhance photographs. The SEC uses it to spot insider trading. Marketers use it to spot consumer trends. The National Weather Service uses it to forecast longterm weather patterns. Stock traders go more than a little nuts with it. Who's to say similar techniques can't be applied to music?

    Well, of course there are a great many people who would recoil at the suggestion. They are the "use your ears" crowd that often refuses to acknowledge the value of applied science to music production. The same group that nevertheless buys into all kinds of dubious voodoo such as cable standoffs, studio-grade lightswitch covers and magic pebbles.



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    Zuma
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/11 20:55:06 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    The same group that nevertheless buys into all kinds of dubious voodoo such as magic pebbles.


    I just got suckered into buying some of those. It was on my birthday too! Felt like a fool but at least I never bought into the war on terror... in fact I sold both my vehicles in protest. Haven't bought a drop of gas or oil in three years. Not an easy decision but I'm not sorry I made it. And if Neil Young hadn't burned down that warehouse in San Fran, I'd be sittin' behind the wheel of an electric right now.... oh well, thanks for trying, Neil! :)

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    craigb
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/11 21:50:40 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    The way I look at it, digital audio is data, and technologies abound for analyzing data to reveal the hidden patterns within. Spy organizations use it to enhance photographs. The SEC uses it to spot insider trading. Marketers use it to spot consumer trends. The National Weather Service uses it to forecast longterm weather patterns. Stock traders go more than a little nuts with it. Who's to say similar techniques can't be applied to music?

    Well, of course there are a great many people who would recoil at the suggestion. They are the "use your ears" crowd that often refuses to acknowledge the value of applied science to music production. The same group that nevertheless buys into all kinds of dubious voodoo such as cable standoffs, studio-grade lightswitch covers and magic pebbles.


    It would be interesting to see if it could be made.  What you're referring to with trading (since I've done this) is also used in the engineering world.  The basic method is a Fourier Transform that breaks something down into its fundamental frequencies.  What I'm wondering is if the plug-in would have to peel away each signal manipulation as if it was an onion.  For example, if someone used both a fuzz and a distortion pedal, would it first have to look at removing one type before the other?  One thing I can see as causing difficulties is if there's any clipping which, by its very nature, would remove (and square off) the tops and bottoms of the signal wave.  If this is done before another process (like the fuzz) hits the signal, then the squaring would be hard to detect I think...

     
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    Kylotan
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/12 11:32:23 (permalink)
    The problem here is that what we call 'distortion' is based on a preconception of a known 'undistorted' tone. But to the computer it's just a signal the same as any other, and it can't know for sure what is the added component you want removing and what is the bit you want to keep.

    It's fairly trivial to pick out the basic tone in a distorted guitar sound, and remove the frequencies that don't lie on the fundamental or the predictable harmonics. But some of that will have been the unique character of the pickups, the strings, even the wood of the guitar. A signal processor has no way of knowing how much of that distortion from the ideal waveform came from the effect you're trying to remove and how much came from the charactistic timbre of the instrument.

    One way of approaching this would be to give it something to aim for. If you could give it a sample of the same instrument without distortion, it can attempt to leave in those characteristics while removing everything else. It still couldn't be perfect, because of information that is completely lost in the distortion process as well as in the digitisation process, but it could get close. It would probably be good enough to re-amp the signal through a different VST, which is probably the biggest commercial application for this.

    Comparisons with image processing are interesting, because they use many of the same types of algorithm we typically use on audio. However, although we see a lot of impressive image enhancement on TV, most of that stuff still just doesn't exist in the real world, because you can't create information out of nothing. What you often get instead is that the computer might make several different clean-up versions of an image based on different algorithms (eg. low pass/high pass filters, pseudo-colouring, etc) , and then a human has to bring in his or her external knowledge to see if any of the new versions match something they know to exist in reality.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/12 12:01:41 (permalink)
    I think that's kinda like unscrambling eggs and putting them back in the shells...as far as a level of difficulty goes.

    It is much easier to go the other direction as we know from the dozens of amp sims and amps available.

    I think it's a matter of time before this is available.  One problem is, I don't see a real market driven need, or demand for this, and without a financial motivation, it won't happen.

    It's "simply" a matter of identifying the notes (pretty easy to do now) and then replacing them with samples of a clean sounding guitar... problem there is you would have hundreds if not thousands of options for sounds....  wait...all that sounds possible now.... But to take the original distorted note and use it to rebuild the original guitar's clean sound..... not so easy.

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    yorolpal
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/12 12:53:42 (permalink)
    I continue to be impressed with what Izotopes Ozone RXrestoration program is capable of (we got the less expensive version last fall).  It, indeed, does have a "remove distortion" function and the demo of it is quite remarkable...haven't had to try it yet tho.  Head over to their site Keni, and give it a listen.
     
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    post edited by yorolpal - 2011/06/12 12:55:45

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    Keni
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    Re:Un-Distortion Plug-In? Is this possible... yet? 2011/06/12 19:32:20 (permalink)
    yorolpal


    I continue to be impressed with what Izotopes Ozone RXrestoration program is capable of (we got the less expensive version last fall).  It, indeed, does have a "remove distortion" function and the demo of it is quite remarkable...haven't had to try it yet tho.  Head over to their site Keni, and give it a listen.
     
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    Thanks Yoropal...

    I was hoping someone had at least made a stab at it...

    I know all the issues that made it difficult (impossible?), but I also know what power lies in the minds of humans!

    Some of the tools mentioned above (used in video/photo) actually do exist ... and it's not magic. interpolation... If one knows the typical character, it can fill in the gaps with what is most likely.... Not an exact science, but it has remarkable results...

    ...and as Kylotan mentioned, the solution might be to feed the software a set of comparitive samples which it could use as a general reference... Search out the harmonics and remove the differences....?

    We'll see...

    I'm headed over to check out the link you kindly provided...

    Thanks again...
    Keni


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