Helpful ReplyUnwanted patch change in the midi clip

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Tezza1971
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2013/02/22 08:13:27 (permalink)

Unwanted patch change in the midi clip

I have a multitrack midi file I downloaded from the internet. I'm using it as practice and I'm manually assigning various soft synths to each track. The bass track keeps setting the patch in my softsynth (AlphaCM) to the first preset (which is of course, horrible, beside the point). I tried inserting the "Cakewalk Midi Event Filter" midi effect but I haven't been able to prevent the patch change. I can switch patches while it's playing, but if I stop and start it again, then it resets the patch. It doesn't seem to matter where in the clip I'm at. At the moment, I am looking over a section in the middle of the clip, but evertime the play head returns to the begining of the loop, it resets the patch. Switching off "Automation Read" on the track seems to fix the issue, but I'd like to know what cause it in the first place. AR is on by default.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 08:21:13 (permalink)
Actually, turning of Automation Read only prevents the patch change when the play-head returns to the beginning of the loop in looped playback, but if I stop playback and start it again, then the patch changes :(

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 08:56:37 (permalink)
I went to Preferences > Project > MIDI, and unchecked "Patch/Controller Searchback Before Play Starts" This didn't stop the patch from changing - however it did reset to different patch after stopping and [re]starting playback.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 08:58:11 (permalink)
I was hoping to debug it by viewing the "Event List" for the track, but I selected Everything except for "MIDI Notes" and nothing showed up (0 Events Shown).

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Guitarhacker
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 09:06:12 (permalink)
Why not use the Cakewalk Sound Center bass samples? 

They sound so much better.  Once you have the sound you want, simply click on FREEZE SYNTH and it will convert the synth to audio..... no way it will change to a different sound then. And with Freeze, you can always unfreeze it and it reverts back to the synth so it is editable. 

What I see so often is new folks coming in and using the longest and hardest, most complicated way to accomplish something. I have always been a huge fan of getting things done in the most effective way possible. 

I have a large number of synths that I rarely use, simply because there are easier ways to do things. 

But on the other side of this fence, knowing how to do things in multiple ways and digging deep into the workings of the synths and other minutia about the DAW is admirable..... just not for me.  

For me, it's..... Get it done and mix the song. 

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 10:12:10 (permalink)
Everything that you said is true. It is much more productive to simply ditch the instrument and move on. However the whole purpose of me attempting to make a production out of this midi file is so that I can learn the tool. These sorts of bugs are an opportunity to understand the tool and the issues surrounding digital music production in general.

However if this was actually a project where I had the clear goal of getting the mix finished, then there is no way I would be trying to debug it.

I think I have well reached the point of deminishing returns in terms of knowledge for effort. However, I might get lucky and someone here may know the answer! :)

It did occur to me to switch out the instrument before and I have done that now. It has fixed the problem. I used a freshly downloaded instrument just for the purposes of familiarising myself with it. It's a free one which seems to be pretty awesome!

http://www.synthtopia.com...more-synth-than-synth/

It's amazing what you can achieve with this cheap DAW and the great free instruments/effects you can get from the net.



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Guitarhacker
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 12:10:36 (permalink)
trying to figure something out to learn is is a good thing.... keep going on it then. 

The price of MC6 throws a bunch of folks..... equating price to quality.....and MC6 just blows them away when they realize what MC can really do. I used MC4 for the better part of 3+ years before I cross graded to X1 essentials.... and I did that solely on a whim not because I needed to. 

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 13:04:32 (permalink)
It is a truly capable beast. Dunno why you'd need Pro Tools. I'm serious. With the right plugins...

Speaking of which, there are some great ones. I just found Mr Ray 73. Wow. What a sound. Loaded up a Ray Charles Midi. Just spent a few hours mixing "Georgia on my mind". Came in 12 tracks. I took your advice and used Cakewalk Sound Center a lot. It does alright.

I couldn't figure out how to hide individual tracks. I agree though, not something you want to get into the habit of doing.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 13:18:49 (permalink)

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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 15:46:24 (permalink)
Hit the "M" key - this will bring up the track manager where you can show or hide tracks by selecting their checkboxes.

Since Mr Ray is free....why not?  But... there are some Rhodes in TTS and I think probably in Sound center too.... I'd need to double check....

The thing about many of the VST's, is once you start adding other tracks, the need to have a really good sounding VST becomes less and less. Unless it is a featured instrument, just about any Rhodes sample or patch will sound good in a band setting. 

Of course, that's just my opinion.... 

post edited by Guitarhacker - 2013/02/22 15:49:27

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 19:46:20 (permalink)
I definitely agree. 

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RobertB
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 22:36:38 (permalink)

This is just a hunch, but the AlphaCM synth may be responding to GM patch data embedded in the file. Those MIDI files are almost invariably General MIDI.
Expand your MIDItrack to show the Bank and Patch boxes.
In X1 Essential I have to select All at the top of my track view. MC6 should be similar.
If there are values in these boxes, change both to None. This may help.
In the case of the Nexus6, it probably does not respond to GM commands, because they are simply not relevant to it. This is true for the majority of soft synths.
By the way, I may have to check that one out. I'm kind of a synth junkie.
I've noticed that the synths you have mentioned tend more toward synthy than emulation of traditional instruments.
Do you have a controller, or are you considering getting one?
The reason I ask is that, while the MIDI files you are using may work with these synths,playing them with a controller blows the doors wide open. Live interaction with the synths really reveals what they are capable of.

As for MC, I totally agree with Guitarhacker. It is very capable at a deceptively low price point. it's strong on its own, but with the addition of other plug-ins, you have a real powerhouse.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 22:39:50 (permalink)
I meant to ask, is there anything in particular with Sonar that you now cannot do without?

Also, I noticed if you create a synth with a "Simple Instrument Track" it actually create two tracks which are hidden from view. If you then delete that synth from the synth rack, the underlying two tracks "pop out" (the audio and midi track) with a value of -1 replacing the synth assignment.
A bit of random useless trivia :)

You really can install too many VSTs. I haven't really done so yet, but I can see from the amount available that one has to be pretty judicious. I have to fight my natural inclination to install "all of them" just so that I can see what's there.... DANGER WILL ROBINSON!



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RobertB
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/22 23:22:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Any time you delete a synth from the synth rack that has tracks associated with it, you are inviting a mess.
It's just bad mojo.

I personally do not like "Simple Instrument Tracks". They are intended to be "simple", but if you try to do anything moderately sophisticated, you are severely restricted. I think they were developed because so many new users were confused by the relationship between the MIDI source track and the synth audio output track.
The downside is that, while  a simple instrument track works, it does not promote understanding what you are working with.
Case in point.
Yes, you are limited in the number of synths you can insert in a project. I believe MC is limited to 8(could be wrong on that).
With simple instrument tracks, you are going to hit the ceiling really fast.
However, if you use a synth like TTS-1 to its fullest, you can have 16 MIDI tracks feeding one instance of the synth, and have 4 audio outputs. This is not possible with simple instrument tracks, but is very easy with separate MIDI and audio tracks.
That is my preferred method, because you have much more flexibility and control.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/23 00:51:07 (permalink)
I'm gonna have to spend more time with TTS-1 for sure. Thanks for the tip.

Great information there.


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Guitarhacker
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/23 09:46:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I started out years ago trying to do this right, by buying the right tools.....software DAW, interface, monitors, computer.....then I started to grab lots of "free" VST's and synths from the net. 

Pretty soon I had a sizable collection of mostly mediocre stuff. Really not much better than the TTS general midi stuff.  While TTS is an amazing synth and is capable of running 16 tracks with 16 different patches at a time, the sound quality, unfortunately is on the lower side of the bell curve. (for my needs and concerns)

I have heard some really amazing things from people who take the time and work with TTS to create a masterpiece. 

So, when I finally decided to build a DAW and move from the laptop to a custom machine, I also had a serious look at the synths and FX I was actually using, and I migrated only those VST's to the new system. 

Somewhere along the line I decided to buy the Native Instruments Komplete package of synths and BiaB.... not cheap but definitely some high quality and good sounding stuff....it came to the new machine, and I had purchased a few other fairly nice tools, and they too were migrated over. Included in that are Melodyne, and Ozone. Both are FX. I occasionally use some other things but these are the main ones. 

All of the free stuff stayed on the lappy since it fell into the category of rarely if ever used. I do not miss using the SFZ and TTS patches and sound fonts. 

Now, I have a small selection of synths and FX that I use. These tools are used on just about every song I work on. These  things are the mainstay and the foundation for every project I work on. With them, I can do everything I need to do, and everything on my songs page is created and recorded with them.....and with a few live instruments that I play, such as the occasional piano part, guitar parts and mandolin parts.... plus vocals. 

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/24 00:18:57 (permalink)
I'd like to get to that stage eventually.

I think I am definitely gonna resist the urge to "try new stuff" ALL the time (which tends to be a habit of mine).

The TTS-1 didn't take long to learn at all. I found the 5 minute youtube intro on it and I just realised it was a General MIDI synth module. Sweet. This is perfect for me because I have collected lots of MIDI songs over the years which are all general midi. (I used to play them on my Sound Blaster AWE32). I totally get the whole 16 track thing and the STANDARD MIDI feature set (incl pan/reverb etc). Most of my MIDI collection is GM standard. Right now I am using them as practice, but also to get my kids (age 7 and 9) enthusiastic about piano practice. I can load a familiar MIDI song and they can record themselves. I just did this for the first time with my daughter this morning and she kepts saying "this is so fun".

So I am totally thrilled about the TTS-1. It is easy to use, and even for sketching out musical ideas, it is a good "bread and butter" toolbox of sounds to get going with. Whilst the quality may not be what most people need to record, I am impressed. This is so much better than the synths from back in the day - even though the TTS-1 is probably "vintage" by now (judging from the crappy interface). I just ran Eric Clapton's COCAINE song through it and the guitar solo at the end sounded surprisingly good. The whole thing did - drums included. For standard rock songs, it does alright. I swapped out the main guitar riff to run through Amplitbe (free) just for fun.


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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/24 00:27:59 (permalink)
I really would like to know how the midi event filter works though. I am getting no joy with it.

I loaded up the cocaine song and tried to change the settings on track one. As soon as I play the track from the beginning it resets all the settings and loses my changes. I tried shortening up the clips but it makes no difference. I'd like to know how to weed out those midi instructions from the file.

[Cakewalk FX MIDI Event Filter]

Nothing I do seems to change the behavior of the midi clip data sent to the instrument (TTS-1).

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RobertB
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/24 01:54:26 (permalink)
Yeah, TTS-1 has been around for a while, but as you noted, it's a good bread and butter synth.
And it's hard to beat for playing those GM files.

Can you provide a link to one of the MIDI files you are using? It's been a while since I messed with them.
I'd like to take a look at one to see if I can identify the patch info.

Also, change the patch/bank in the MIDI track, not the TTS-1 GUI. The track settings will override the settings in the GUI.

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Tezza1971
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/24 04:34:57 (permalink)
Thanks Shimozu, I have sent a link by PM.

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Guitarhacker
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Re:Unwanted patch change in the midi clip 2013/02/24 09:12:02 (permalink)
The cool thing about TTS is that it can handle 16 midi tracks all by it's lonesome.

As far as ease.... once you learn TTS, any synth is easy. Most of the better ones are one channel synths.... one instance=one track=one instrument/sound. add another instance and repeat to build the band. 

This is generally not a problem with today's very powerful computers and sound interfaces with ASIO... unless you are trying to build a 100 piece orchestral project. In that case I would defer to TTS for many of the section tracks and let the lead instruments have the individual synths. 

Another good FREE amp sim is called Acme Bar Gig http://acmebargig.com/   NOTE: the free sim is called SHRED and it's not there right now. There is a note that they are overhauling the site and the freebies will be back "shortly".... so just bookmark the site and check it every few days. One of the cakewalk forumites has a hand in developing this sim IIRC. 

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