Update::: No change to "Tempo View" in x3 apparently.

I ask this every update. And since as far as I can tell no one has post the complete fixes & improvements list, can one of you brave souls tell me if there is any change to the "Tempo View". I'm really hoping for a node and spline based tempo map. But anything other than the incredibly imprecise and fussy pen based tempo editing method. A method, I might point out, has not been significantly improved since Sonar 2. Anyone?

Will never happen unless you feature request it.

puffer
I ask this every update. And since as far as I can tell no one has post the complete fixes & improvements list, can one of you brave souls tell me if there is any change to the "Tempo View".
 
I'm really hoping for a node and spline based tempo map. But anything other than the incredibly imprecise and fussy pen based tempo editing method. A method, I might point out, has not been significantly improved since Sonar 2.
 

You're not alone, Puffer.  Fine-grained tempo control is extraordinarily important to the type of music I'm pursuing.  So much so that I'm going to transition to Cubase which delivers a much better solution (not 100% effective but better than SONAR for my purposes).  Disclaimer: this assessment is based on reading documentation only.  I have not yet had the opportunity to do some serious work using the Cubase facilities.
 
It's really a shame.  There are many reasons I would prefer to stick with SONAR, and the modest upgrades to making the Tempo View into a full-fledged editing tool like the PRV would probably not be all that much work.

I think something like splines might be useful.

brundlefly

dmbaer
Fine-grained tempo control is extraordinarily important to the type of music I'm pursuing.

Finer than .01 BPM and one tempo change per tick?   It makes no sense to have a higher density of tempo changes than you have notes; it's not possible to hear a tempo change between notes. And I challenge anyone to hear the difference between 100.01 and 100.009BPM in a musical context
 
I think you must mean something like "more flexible" control. 

I quite agree that tempo events between notes is nothing more than wasting resources (both storage and processing cycles).  And I'm not talking about subtle tempo variations/differences.
 
By "fine grained" I mean being able to have (and readily edit) tempo changes every eighth note (or quarter note triplets or possibly even 16th notes).  I wrote a useful program (certainly useful for me, anyway, but probably not for the majority of other computer musicians) that takes a "click track" of MIDI note-on events and turns it into MIDI tempo track with tempo events at the desired division of a beat.  It may not seem like a big deal, but to be able to edit those by clicking and dragging tempo event "markers" up and down in an editor is much easier to work with than using a draw tool, which is all we have at our disposal in the SONAR tempo editor.  Yes, you can accomplish exactly the same thing with either approach in theory, but in practice using click and drag is gives you results with less stress and better accuracy.
 
SONAR editors are generally first rate.  In both the Track View and in the PVR, we have the smart tool that is wonderfully efficient to work with.  But in the Tempo View, not so much.  It really feels like the Tempo View has been given second-class citizenship in the family of SONAR views.
 
The other thing that Cubase allows and SONAR does not is being able to disable the tempo track temporarily and have playback use a fixed tempo.  If you've nearly completed some work and have the tempo track established, but need to go back and, say, add an additional MIDI track while slowing down the temp to accommodate your less-than-virtuoso chops, this can come in extremely handy.
 
 

Studious, Huh. I did not know that. Or had forgotten. But, thanks. I'm glad to be reminded of that; it's useful information.

puffer
I mean, I hate to be such a d¡ck about this, but I remain unimpressed that this issue -- and note view and event viewer and video and drum maps and et cetera -- has not been addressed. Legacy code from -- at latest -- Sonar 2? It's sort of telling.

Frankly, I remain skeptical until we see the big list of "over a hundred" improvements, fixes and enhancements. Because what I've seen so far, outside of Melodyne integration (a program I already use w/ Sonar), are a few welcome improvements and a lot of 3rd party content.

For the first time in 12 versions of Sonar I'm not immediately compelled to upgrade my current version of Producer.

Good luck to all of you. I hope the program rocks your world. I'll catch you on the point upgrade.

what are you not impressed about ?

dmbaer
By "fine grained" I mean being able to have (and readily edit) tempo changes every eighth note (or quarter note triplets or possibly even 16th notes).  I wrote a useful program (certainly useful for me, anyway, but probably not for the majority of other computer musicians) that takes a "click track" of MIDI note-on events and turns it into MIDI tempo track with tempo events at the desired division of a beat.  It may not seem like a big deal, but to be able to edit those by clicking and dragging tempo event "markers" up and down in an editor is much easier to work with than using a draw tool, which is all we have at our disposal in the SONAR tempo editor.  Yes, you can accomplish exactly the same thing with either approach in theory, but in practice using click and drag is gives you results with less stress and better accuracy.

Hey, David. Thanks for clarifying. I figured you were talking mostly about editing methods, and flexibility to do things like scale tempos or temporarily disable them. I agree that SONAR is weak in this area, and has not seen a significant change for some time. But some of what you mentioned is already available or pretty close to it.
 
The length of tempo "steps" follows snap, and clicking in the tempo view causes the tempo in the next snap segment to jump to that level. To me, that's pretty close to being able to drag a tempo segment to a precise level. Probably the major shortcoming here is that you can't select a range of tempos and drag them all up and down together.
 
And, of course there's long been a Fit Improvisation function that can create a tempo track based on a click track of MIDI notes, though not at anything less than quarter-note intervals. But I would think that would be a sufficient starting point for most projects. And Audiosnap can do the the same with an audio click, and lets you specify more beats per measure if needed. In fact, it occurs to me that Audiosnap's Set Project from Clip function could even be used be used to switch a project or sections of a project back and forth between different tempo maps
 
As long as you've been at this, I'm sure you've worked with all these tools, and have developed a lot of your own methods for getting your work done. I just thought I'd mention them for the benefit of others that might have forgotten about, not known about, or not have fully investigated the ways in which the existing tools can be used.
 
In any case, if the Bakers are going to do anything to improve the tools, they'll need very detailed descriptions of functional requirements for what users would like to see. I hope all the users who are disappointed with the existing functionality are taking the time to submit those detailed feature requests.
 
 
 
 
 

One thing I'd like is if the Tempo View had a Timeline Zoom feature like the Clips Pane does and/or stayed in sync with the current horizontal zoom level of the Clips Pane. In fact I'm not sure why this feature was not implemented to all views that contain a timeline. After getting used to it it's like being thrust back to the stone age once you get to a screen that doesn't have it.

chuckebaby

what are you not impressed about ?

Are you seriously asking? I thought I was pretty clear.
 
Take out the 3rd party content & VSTs, and the things that already exist in SX1, this is basically what you're left with:
-Improved comping
-background VST scanning & VST3
-ARA integration
-Track colors
-Inline EQ improvements
 
I'll even give you that if you go producer you get some new, albeit 3rd party, ProChannel modules.
 
(Source: http://www.cakewalk.com/products/sonar/whats-new.aspx)
 
Without that list of improvements we have only the conflicting reports of users here about the performance and interface improvements.
 
Yes, those look like some improvements I'd like to check out. As I said, welcomed. But that doesn't exactly blow me over with its pure awesome.
 
If the additional plugs and instruments make the upgrade price worth it for you, sweet. Me, I'm already lousy with plugins, sample instruments and badass DSP. I use fxpasion, and Audio Damage, and Voxengo, and GMedia, Valhalla, NI, and yadda yadda yadda. Point being, I see a lot of value being placed on included content at the expense of the core product. For what reason I can only speculate.
 
Right now, I'm investigating that if I go from X2 Producer to X3 Studio if I loose access to the features I am currently enjoying.
 
It doesn't seem so, but does anyone know for certain?

CakeFan
I'm kinda with Sylvan on this... jeez, I'm pretty happy with the tempo view. Really? ............... Really? You can't get it done with what we already have?........... Really?!?

Yes, really, and I think both the OP and I were very clear about what we regard as deficiencies.  What part or our remarks weren't clear to you?  It's very nice that you're pretty happy with the tempo view, but some of us make much more rigorous use of it than does the typical user.
 

How dare you need function that others don't need or understand!

CakeFan
Hey guys.... I do apologize... I was in a weird mood and a tad drunk.  I was being an @$$.  Please forgive me. 
The node thing would be cool actually.

Cheers!