donald
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Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
I'd like to use my Edirol PCR-300 and its pads to trigger cells in the Matrix and then use the keyboard to play synths live on top of the Matrix performance.
As the PCR controller section is its own midi device (PCR-2) and the keyboard is a separate midi device (PCR-1), this should work very well. In the track view I just assign the midi track/soft synth I want to play with the keyboard to PCR-1 and the midi track won't listen to anything I do with the pads on the PCR.
However, I can't find the equivalent setting for the Matrix view, which means that the Matrix view listens to any midi device, so when I play the keyboard it'll also trigger the cells in the Matrix, as well as play on the midi track/soft synth.
A solution would be to assign a different midi channel to the pads and make sure I don't use that midi channel in any of my tracks, but this defeats the versatility of several midi devices in the first place and throws me 15-20 years back in time when we only had 16 midi channels to play with.
Surely there must be a setting to chose which midi device is assigned to the Matrix or how do you solve this issue? What am I missing?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 01:47:22
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donald
I'd like to use my Edirol PCR-300 and its pads to trigger cells in the Matrix and then use the keyboard to play synths live on top of the Matrix performance.
As the PCR controller section is its own midi device (PCR-2) and the keyboard is a separate midi device (PCR-1), this should work very well. In the track view I just assign the midi track/soft synth I want to play with the keyboard to PCR-1 and the midi track won't listen to anything I do with the pads on the PCR.
MIDI Omni should sort that out, or if you prefer not to go the omni route use the MIDI input presets feature. Select "Manage presets" from the input drop down and assign input ports/channels as required. However, I can't find the equivalent setting for the Matrix view, which means that the Matrix view listens to any midi device, so when I play the keyboard it'll also trigger the cells in the Matrix, as well as play on the midi track/soft synth.
A solution would be to assign a different midi channel to the pads and make sure I don't use that midi channel in any of my tracks, but this defeats the versatility of several midi devices in the first place and throws me 15-20 years back in time when we only had 16 midi channels to play with.
Surely there must be a setting to chose which midi device is assigned to the Matrix or how do you solve this issue? What am I missing?
If you use "MIDI learn" to assign pads to cells it should only respond to the assigned cell, not sure what is going on there if it is responding to all incoming MIDI. I'm a little confused by what you mean. DO you mean if you press a key on the PCR every matrix cell responds? Just one? You can set which channel the matrix responds to using the icon towards the top left of that view but unless specifically assigned a cell shouldn't respond anyway.
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maxsax
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 03:48:39
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Use PCR2 and "midi learn" in the Matrix to assign pads or columns to your cells. The pads just send out midi CC messages. Midi channel 1 should be fine. You can still play your soft synths using PCR1 on whatever midi channel the synth is using.
BTW which firmware do you have on your PCR 300?
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 06:09:44
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FastBikerBoy: MIDI Omni should sort that out, or if you prefer not to go the omni route use the MIDI input presets feature. Select "Manage presets" from the input drop down and assign input ports/channels as required.
FastBikerBoy: If you use "MIDI learn" to assign pads to cells it should only respond to the assigned cell, not sure what is going on there if it is responding to all incoming MIDI. I'm a little confused by what you mean. DO you mean if you press a key on the PCR every matrix cell responds? Just one? You can set which channel the matrix responds to using the icon towards the top left of that view but unless specifically assigned a cell shouldn't respond anyway.
I've set up one of the control maps on the PCR to assign the pads to notes rather than CC. With the default Sonar map it is mapped to work with ACT, so if I assign a cell in the matrix to a pad, hitting that pad would also trigger a function via ACT, which is less than ideal. Hence I have a map for ACT and one where the pads are assigned to notes. I've put the soft synth to listen to the PCR-1 midi-port on Omni, but I can't choose what midi-port the Matrix should listen too, only which midi track. And it appears the matrix is listening to all midi-ports. I can use "manage presets" for the tracks, but that doesn't solve the problem as the cells in matrix listens to all midi-ports. At least I can't find the setting for the matrix to only listen to midi-port PCR-2. So what happens is that when I play the pads with the setup explained above, the matrix responds as it should and the soft synth is silent, as it should. It is when I play the keyboard the problem occurs. Then the soft synth plays as it should but it also triggers cells in the matrix if a cell is assigned to that particular note. If I was able to find the midi-port selector for the matrix, it would be so much easier. I could just switch controller maps on the PCR depending on if I wanted to control ACT or the matrix. If I have a second pad controller, say a Novation Launchpad and wanted to trigger cells from that, I still can find a way to tell the matrix to only listen to the midi-port Novation Launchpad. The bottom line question is: where is the midi-port assignment for the matrix?
post edited by donald - 2013/01/29 06:21:18
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 06:14:46
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maxsax
Use PCR2 and "midi learn" in the Matrix to assign pads or columns to your cells. The pads just send out midi CC messages. Midi channel 1 should be fine. You can still play your soft synths using PCR1 on whatever midi channel the synth is using.
BTW which firmware do you have on your PCR 300?
Well, as I explained above, either the pads also trigger ACT functions in the standard controller map or the keys trigger cells, as I can't find the midi-port setting for the matrix. I'm using 1.05, which seems to be the latest firmware posted on roland.com. The fundamental question is as this is also a problem if you have two separate midi controllers: where is the midi-port assignment for the matrix? I can't find it.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 06:31:57
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donald
maxsax
Use PCR2 and "midi learn" in the Matrix to assign pads or columns to your cells. The pads just send out midi CC messages. Midi channel 1 should be fine. You can still play your soft synths using PCR1 on whatever midi channel the synth is using.
BTW which firmware do you have on your PCR 300?
Well, as I explained above, either the pads also trigger ACT functions in the standard controller map or the keys trigger cells, as I can't find the midi-port setting for the matrix.
I'm using 1.05, which seems to be the latest firmware posted on roland.com.
The fundamental question is as this is also a problem if you have two separate midi controllers: where is the midi-port assignment for the matrix? I can't find it.
The point is you don't need to change port assignment. Right click on cell select MIDI learn, press controller pad. Move on to next cell & repeat. It's possible to do that with as many controllers as you want. I've just tried it with three different controllers - a PCR 800, BCF 2000, and the MIDI section on my ZED-R16. Each relevant pad triggers as expected and ignores any other incoming MIDI. If you are seeing something different there's something wrong with the setup somewhere. Perhaps some crosstalk or something, or perhaps I'm mis-understanding the problem.
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/29 07:19:56
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FastBikerBoy
The point is you don't need to change port assignment. Right click on cell select MIDI learn, press controller pad. Move on to next cell & repeat. It's possible to do that with as many controllers as you want. I've just tried it with three different controllers - a PCR 800, BCF 2000, and the MIDI section on my ZED-R16. Each relevant pad triggers as expected and ignores any other incoming MIDI.
If you are seeing something different there's something wrong with the setup somewhere. Perhaps some crosstalk or something, or perhaps I'm mis-understanding the problem.
Well, I've just done a new install of Sonar X2 in a brand new Win 7 Pro 64-bit and done a factory reset of the PCR with the latest firmware 1.05, so the setup should be OK. Using the PCR Editor to read control map 0-1 shows that the CC-setup for the A-pads is cc 80 and for B-pads it is cc81, except A9 and B9 which are assigned to CC83. I've now used midi learn to assign A1-4 to cell 1:1 - 1:4 and B1-4 to cell 2:1 - 2:4. Hitting A1-8 now triggers 1:1 to 1:4, i.e. the whole first column and hitting A1-8 again stops the whole column. The same happens with B1-8 and column 2. It seems the pads only recognises the CC-number and doesn't care which of the pads that are hit. I've tried this with Control map 0-1, i.e. the default and the Sonar-map, with the same result. It seems like the matrix ignores which midi channel is sending the message and only listens to the CC-value, as all A-pads have CC 80 but transmits on midi channel 1-8 and B-pads have CC 81 on channel 1-8 as default in the PCR. So I plugged in a second keyboard, an old Oxygen 8, and assigned A1-4 to C1-F1 and B1-4 to G1-C2. After setting the tracks to only listen to the PCR-1 the cells are triggered as they should from the Oxygen, but playing the PCR plays the soft synth AND triggers the cells, i.e. it behaves exactly the same as my custom Sonar map with note values assigned to the pads. After all the PCR controller and the PCR keyboard are two separate midi devices with their own midi-ports as far as Sonar is concerned, so that is not so surprising. If I could find the midi-port setting for the matrix I wouldn't have this problem, as the matrix would only listen to one midi-port and not all of them. What is is that I'm missing here? I think I've tried every option available.
post edited by donald - 2013/01/29 07:29:38
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/30 06:00:02
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Anyone got any good ideas on what's wrong with the setup or are we missing a feature here? Cakewalk?
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rabeach
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/30 10:54:42
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donald
Anyone got any good ideas on what's wrong with the setup or are we missing a feature here? Cakewalk?
as far as I know you can only choose midi channel for the matrix and are not able to choose port. to choose channel in the upper right hand corner of the matrix there is a midi icon click on the little arrow. i believe that choosing port is a missing feature.
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/30 16:29:43
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rabeach
as far as I know you can only choose midi channel for the matrix and are not able to choose port. to choose channel in the upper right hand corner of the matrix there is a midi icon click on the little arrow. i believe that choosing port is a missing feature. I've seen the midi channel selector. But doesn't that make it terribly difficult to play soft synths at the same time as triggering cells and columns with a midi controller? Surely there must be something I'm missing here. It can't be that Cakewalk has missed to include something so fundamental, can it?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/30 16:44:06
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If you aren't getting the results you want why not set up a control map on the PCR that outputs everything from the pads on an unused channel, say 16. Set the Matrix channel to listen to 16 and you're done.
I'm really not sure why you are seeing what you are, I suspect it might be to do with the mapping. The matrix responds to all ports which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/30 18:25:27
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Naturally I can always use a separate midi channel for the matrix, liek we used to 20 years ago or so. But why would I need that when multi port midi support is implemented everywhere else in Sonar? Unless I set the Matrix to a specific midi channel and avoid this midi channel with with every midi port I can't use a midi controller to play a soft synth and at the same time have the matrix' cells mapped to trigger on midi. This feels a bit ancient and unneccessary. Multi midi port support would be so much easier.
FastBikerBoy, how were you able to get the matrix to trigger from the pads on your PCR? With the default Sonar control map (1) the A-pads trigger on CC80 and B-pads on CC81 over midi channel 1-8, which means if the matrix is set to omni, all cells mapped to an A-pad would trigger at the same time, and if you set the matrix to listen to a specific channel you can only use one A and one B-pad, per default, without changing the control map. It seems the matrix midi learn ignores midi channels.
So I wonder how you were able to map cells to different pads?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/31 10:17:20
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The standard Sonar map I doubt would work. I don't really use my PCR for this anyway but I did try it when I saw your post because I knew it was possible. I'd used that when I was prepping for some of the X2 video work.
Anyway I had a look to see why mine works and I can only assume as I suspected - it's a mapping thing. I'm using a map set up for one of my drum machines. The pads are mapped to notes as per a GM Drum kit, the down side is that the assigned matrix cells will also be triggered when playing those notes on the keyboard.
However it's just as easy to map the buttons to "out of normal range" notes on a different port and that will work. Try this...
1. Map pads A1 - B8 to notes 0 - 15 on Port 2.
2. MIDI learn matrix cells/columns to those pads
3. Set synth track input to PCR Port 1.
The only problem you'll have now is if you want to play MIDI notes 15 or lower on the keyboard as they will also trigger the Matrix cells/column but of course you can map the pads to any notes in the higher octaves, or any others you are unlikely to use.
If you need the full MIDI note range you're stuffed but otherwise that works. AS you have a 300 I doubt that's the case anyway. Even on the 800 it's not very practical to use the full range.
HTH
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donald
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/31 13:55:37
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Thanks Karl,
That's what I thought. It's not me then, it is Sonar this time. With the same setup/mapping you get the same result as I get.
The interim solution is to either map the pads to out of normal range, as you suggest, or use a dedicated midi-channel.
The proper solution would be for Cakewalk to implement multi midi-port support for the Matrix. Then we wouldn't have this "problem". It can't be that hard. After all it is available everywhere else in Sonar. I'll put that in the suggestion box.
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rabeach
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Re:Use Matrix with multiple midi devices in Sonar X2
2013/01/31 20:02:23
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The proper solution would be for Cakewalk to implement multi midi-port support for the Matrix. +1
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