Use mic preamp on turntable

Before I start ripping things apart to try and record some LP's onto my hard drive:  Can I use a Mic preamp box to boost the signal enough from a turntable than record that in something like Sonar?
thanks...

No No No No No

THere is a huge difference. 

Records have an equalization curve applied before the grooves are cut.  You have to un-do that.  You need a RIAA thingy. 

space_cowboy


No No No No No

THere is a huge difference. 

Records have an equalization curve applied before the grooves are cut.  You have to un-do that.  You need a RIAA thingy. 

Bo - what do you mean?  can you elaborate please?
 
or are you trying to be "unfunny"?

RIAA equalization From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search

The RIAA equalization curve for playback of vinyl records.


RIAA equalization is a specification for the correct playback of gramophone records, established by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). The purpose of the equalization is to permit greater playback times, improve sound quality, and to limit the vinyl damages that would otherwise arise from recording analog records without such equalization.
The RIAA equalization curve has operated as a de facto global industry standard for the recording and playback of vinyl records since 1954. Before then, especially from 1940, each record company applied its own equalization; there were over 100 combinations of turnover and rolloff frequencies in use, the main ones being Columbia-78, Decca-U.S., European (various), Victor-78 (various), Associated, BBC, NAB, Orthacoustic, World, Columbia LP, FFRR-78 and microgroove, and AES.

The RIAA curve

RIAA equalization is a form of preemphasis on recording, and deemphasis on playback. A record is cut with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback the opposite occurs. The result is a flat frequency response, but with noise such as hiss and clicks arising from the surface of the medium itself much attenuated. The other main benefit of the system is that low frequencies, which would otherwise cause the cutter to make large excursions when cutting a groove, are much reduced, so grooves are smaller and more can be fitted in a given surface area, yielding longer playback times. This also has the benefit of eliminating physical stresses on the playback stylus which might otherwise be hard to cope with, or cause unpleasant distortion.
A potential drawback of the system is that rumble from the playback turntable's drive mechanism is greatly amplified, which means that players have to be carefully designed to avoid this.

RIAA equalization is not a simple low-pass filter. It carefully defines transition points in three places - 75 µs, 318 µs and 3180 µs, which correspond to 2122 Hz, 500 Hz and 50 Hz. Implementing this characteristic is not especially difficult, but more involved than a simple amplifier. Most hi-fi amplifiers have a built-in phono preamplifier with the RIAA characteristic, though it is often omitted in modern designs, due to the gradual obsolescence of vinyl records. A solution in this case is to purchase an outboard preamplifier with the RIAA equalization curve, which adapts a magnetic cartridge to a standard line-level input. Some modern turntables feature built-in preamplification to the RIAA standard. Special preamplifiers are also available for the various equalization curves used on pre-1954 records.
Digital audio editors often feature the ability to equalize audio samples using standard and custom equalization curves, removing the need for a dedicated hardware preamplifier when capturing audio with a computer. However, this can add an extra step in processing a sample, and may amplify audio quality issues of the sound card being used to capture the signal.

I don't understand, tho.  if you're using a "record player" then doesn't it already have the RIAA EQ "undone" as it sends the signal to the output for you to hook up to the speakers?  I can see where this would be a problem if you want to go directly from a turntable into a preamp, but if you're going from a "record player" then it should already have an amplifier in it and should already have the RIAA EQ reversed, right?

Beagle


I don't understand, tho.  if you're using a "record player" then doesn't it already have the RIAA EQ "undone" as it sends the signal to the output for you to hook up to the speakers?  I can see where this would be a problem if you want to go directly from a turntable into a preamp, but if you're going from a "record player" then it should already have an amplifier in it and should already have the RIAA EQ reversed, right?

Beagle
I am motarded again. 

If you have a record player, I guess that has a preamp.  I was equating record player to turntable.  No turntable worth its salt would ever put a high gain device like a preamp into the same chassis that had an AC motor. That is just begging for 60 cycle hum. 

I am not sure what a record player is other than one of these things.



I am more talking about one of these things

Yeah the RIAA thing is not that expensive, but without it the LPS will sound - as they say in france - c'est merde!

chefmike8888


I looked into this a few months back and found that for me to go from my turntable into my Mackie Onyx to PC I would need an RIAA EQ/Pre-Amp.
Most were going for $30 to $70.

Not sure about the record player though as Reece mentioned.

Mike

Well, technically that's the term that the OP used.  that's why I used it instead of "turntable."  I assume that "turntables" don't have preamps built in and that "record players" do.
well - and looking at his OP again - he uses both terms.  so I'm making everyone confused I guess.  sorry guys.

Beagle
I too am confused.  I know what I am talking about, but I have no idea if it relates to the OP. 

Who is this Bo you speak of?  He must be a great guy!

actually, I'm glad you brought this up!  this is really good info!  I was not aware of the RIAA EQ and the problems with matching the impedance (although that part I should have realized if I had thought about it).

basically you might have saved this guy from following my advice if he's trying to hook up a turntable to his m-audio dmp-3 directly and caused him to record that way!

and Bo is a great guy!  you should get some! 

My father in law had asked me about doing this and I recommended that he get one of those USB turntables.  I hope that was good advice.  It might still be very manual but those things claim you can do it automatically using their software, IDK.  I assume they have already taken care of the RIAA "thingy" and anything else you'd have to worry about for transferring the vinyl to CD.

My girlfriend's father (who has very little computer skills beyond web surfing and email) bought one of those self-contained old timey radio loooking thingies that has a turntable and a CD recorder in it. I think it was $100.
 
He's happy with it.
 
I've not listened to it for fear I'll have some grumpy/confused look on my face due to the quality (and I'm no audiophile like Spaurice).
 

There are a number of phono pre’s (for RIAA equalization) on the market now … ranging from 30 bucks to whatever you want to spend.

Here is one for $180 that would drop between your TT and your mic pre or mixing board (never used it so I can’t comment on it):

http://radialeng.com/di-j33.htm

My personal collection consists of :
50’s era mono Garrard RC 88 78’s (it took me 3 “changers” to build one that works)
70’s era Marantz 6300 TT
80’s era Dual 606 TT

For Listening (and of course RIAA equalization), mono stuff goes through a re-capped and re-tubed 50’s era mono Sherwood tube integrated amp.  Stereo stuff goes through a 70’s era Crown IC 150.

For transferring, I've used the Marantz TT through either my Crown pre- (or another high end pre- that I have):
(1) directly into the RCA jacks on my consumer grade sound card
or
(2) from the Crown pre- into a mixing board and then into a breakout box.

In both cases (consumer grade card vs. breakout box) I was very happy with the results.

If I was transferring something that was from the 50’s or earlier, with the intention of playing the resulting CD through modern gear, I would probably play the 78 through a complete era specific system, especially the speaker … and then record the output at the speaker with a mic.

Spacecowboy is correct. A turntable needs a RIAA EQ, but this can be restored in software. Mostly its about impedance and gain (or lack there of) that will be the problem trying to hook it into a line in to dirctly record to MP3.

Speaking of which, I do believe one or both of my sound interfaces on the
DAW has a phono pre. I just realized I can actually go direct in to my rig, so I must thank the OP for making me think about this.

Cheers
Shad

quantumeffect


There are a number of phono pre’s (for RIAA equalization) on the market now … ranging from 30 bucks to whatever you want to spend.

Here is one for $180 that would drop between your TT and your mic pre or mixing board (never used it so I can’t comment on it):

http://radialeng.com/di-j33.htm

I can vouch for the Radial unit - have used it for years. It is powered by either a wall wart or via phantom power. I go with the XLR outs to my Edirol UA1000 sound I/O and use the phantom power on that. Just be sure to connect the ground wire from the turntable to the Radial unit. There's some mixers out there (and soundcards as well) that have built-in phono (RCA jack) inputs with RIAA eq.