redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
Hey all
I made some headway on my drums tonight. Was able to take my DR-880, send the midi out, capture it AND modify the MIDI info so that what plays through superior is the same as what plays in the DR-880.
So, after editing the midi, I made buses for everything, then sent the buses to the output lanes in Superior. I even gave everything names. However, when i go back into Sonar and I want to use those drum tracks as input, I don't see the nice friendly names for the outputs. All I see is the standard 3 inputs for everything....
Is there a way to get Sonar to read the friendly names I assigned the outputs? If not that's going to be problematic as the kick drum itself takes three tracks in Superior itself. Not sure how I would take those three kick drum tracks from superior and pipe them into one single track in Sonar....
I hope I'm making sense.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 00:51:06
(permalink)
The process is similar to EZDrummer http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2784703 The only difference is that you have a more complex mixer inside Superior Drummer. No, SONAR is not going to read the labels that you assign inside Superior Drummer. You will be responsible for labeling the audio tracks in SONAR. That is why it might be a good idea to create track templates for the drum synths that you intend to use.
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 00:59:51
(permalink)
That is how I created my tracks. I was simply hoping that I could utilize the buses that I created in SD2 so I would not have as many drum tracks in Sonar.
Because in SD2, there three kick tracks that I bussed down into 1, there were three snare tracks that I bussed down into 1. That's a lot right there.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 01:07:57
(permalink)
Sure you can do that. In Superior Drummer you can route the microphones to "bus" options in the mixer output dropdown and then route the busses to the "out" options. The "outs" are routed to SONAR audio tracks. Alternately, you can route more than one microphone to an "out" and skip the Superior Drummer busses entirely using the SONAR tracks instead of busses in Superior Drummer. It is up to you. Just like EZDrummer the output section also has a multichannel selection for quick output layout.
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 01:48:05
(permalink)
scook
Sure you can do that. In Superior Drummer you can route the microphones to "bus" options in the mixer output dropdown and then route the busses to the "out" options. The "outs" are routed to SONAR audio tracks. Alternately, you can route more than one microphone to an "out" and skip the Superior Drummer busses entirely using the SONAR tracks instead of busses in Superior Drummer. It is up to you. Just like EZDrummer the output section also has a multichannel selection for quick output layout. And I have it setup this way. In fact, right now I changed how I have it setup now, skipping buses and going straight to the outs to create my groupings so to speak. Three kick mics going to 1 output, 3 snare mics going to one output, the toms going to another out etc etc. However, when I go back into Sonar, and try to set the input for one the drum tracks, I see all 31 SD outputs. L/R and Stereo for everything. I was really hoping I could group everything in SD, then just bring that group in Sonar...
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 02:08:47
(permalink)
That is why you want to consider setting up a track template. When you insert a multi-output synth like Superior Drummer into SONAR all that SONAR knows is that the synth can send X number of outputs and creates the appropriate number of tracks. It is up to you to decide which outputs you want to use, what the outputs represent in SONAR and delete the unused tracks. When you get the synth and the host configured, save that configuration away for future use as a track template. For example, my Avatar template uses 11 SONAR stereo audio tracks for all the microphones, 1 SONAR MIDI track and 2 SONAR busses. It does not use Superior Drummer busses at all. Anytime I want to use that drumkit, I load that template into SONAR and all Superior Drummer config and SONAR routing is setup with a couple of keystrokes.
post edited by scook - 2013/03/02 02:35:24
|
dxp
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 252
- Joined: 2007/06/04 12:56:34
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 05:55:52
(permalink)
+1 on setting up the track template.
Mind numbing to not do it that way as you are seeing.
I have a template setup to load that way every time I start a new project.
In fact I have 2 options, one is midi and 1 audio only if I know this will just be a rehearsal type project and another that has all the EZDrummer
Outputs to multiple audio tracks.
Both of course exist in a track folder.
Dave
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 10:55:18
(permalink)
Ok, I'm sold on creating a template. Does the following sound about right?
No reason to group by bus in SD2 because Sonar won't know anything about those buses. From the SD2 side of things there not much to do other than set levels, bleed, maybe some FX.
From sonar, create a drum folder to contain all the SD2 tracks / there will be a 1 to 1 mapping between Sonar and SD2.
In Sonar create my various buses. Kick bus, Snare bus and any others I may choose to have.
Save as a template.
Create a new project in Sonar and choose my template.
When it opens I will have a SD2 synth, all it's tracks and buses I created and any FX I've applied...
Is all that correct? Any suggestions to that?
edit to add
When mixing drums, is it standard to only have the kick, overheads and room in stereo?
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 11:09:39
(permalink)
Yeah, that is the idea. The template I described above does group some of the the microphones to one SONAR track so there is no 1-1 mapping of microphones to tracks. For example, the kick only gets one SONAR track. I do keep the snare top and bottom separate to control the bleed in the bottom mic (which could be done in the Superior Drummer mixer). Same for all the microphones that bleed and ambient tracks since I might not want to use them. All the audio tracks are stereo, it is easier for me to work that way. Superior Drummer already pans everything pretty much where they need to be. I only have two busses, one for the complete drum mix and another for a compressed drum mix. There might be other busses involved, such as a reverb, but I add those to the project as needed. I try to keep the drums as unaffected as possible when tracking, like all the other tracks, so that I do not have latency issues; adding effects during mixing when latency is not an issue.
post edited by scook - 2013/03/02 11:18:21
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 11:18:40
(permalink)
scook Yeah, that is the idea. The template I described above does group some of the the microphones to one SONAR track so there is no 1-1 mapping of microphones to tracks. Hey, that's exactly what I would like to do. But I've not figured out yet how to do that. What is the proper terminology here? Mix down???
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 11:40:52
(permalink)
Here is a start for you. Insert Superior Drummer into an empty project make sure to check the "MIDI Source", "Synth Track Folder" and "All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo" in the SONAR "Insert Soft Synth Options Dialog". Load whatever drum kit you want into Superior Drummer. Switch to the Superior Drummer mixer and select multichannel from an output dropdown. This will group some of the microphones to a single stereo track, for example the kicks, other microphones will have their own stereo pair. You are now done with a simple Superior Drummer config. Back in SONAR, label the audio outputs to agree with the Superior Drummer outputs. Create a drum bus, select and change the audio output of all the drum tracks to the drum bus. If you want you can create separate sends for whatever you want. Assign the output of the MIDI track to the drum map of for the drumkit you are using. There are a few drum maps at the Toontrack user download area. I think I had to make a few drum maps using one I found in SONAR or a Toontrack download and the pdf Toontrack supplies for each drum kit. The basic setup is complete, select the drum folder, all the audio drum tracks, the MIDI track, drum busses and save it as a track template.
post edited by scook - 2013/03/02 11:48:16
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/02 12:48:15
(permalink)
scook
You my friend are a rock star!
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/24 21:24:52
(permalink)
@Red...man you you helped me by asking questions here and at the same time opened up a huge can of worms...Session Drummer 3...no problem...I can make everything do what I need. Superior 2...I am lost...I can not tell from the mixer in S2 what is what as far as tracks go in X2...I also cannot get S2 to save custom kits for the DR880...it saves some of the pieces but when I close out and restart it,load my saved kit and then it's all screwed up...pad 11 won't stay a tom and becomes a cymbal while the ride and bell go back to how it was originally in S2 before I remapped them how I wanted using LEARN ...I am so ticked I can't even see now...can you(or anyone) guide me??
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
Middleman
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4397
- Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
- Location: Orange County, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/24 22:08:16
(permalink)
The only problem is when you switch drum kits in Superior, the output assignments change back to the default which screws up your routing to Sonar. The reason being is that each kit uses less or more mixer channels depending on how it was tracked and also uses the default outputs. To help make it all manageable, you need to go through each drumkit in Superior, set it up to map to Sonar and then save it as a user setting inside of Superior. That way when you switch drum kits, you just have to load the user setting for that kit and it will reset the routing to Sonar with a quick drop down.
|
Paul G
Max Output Level: -52 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2334
- Joined: 2004/03/17 21:38:03
- Location: Florida
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 11:17:51
(permalink)
I generally put my kick in mono , centered.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 14:00:16
(permalink)
There is certainly room for Toontracks to make improvements to Superior's UI. I don't know why they don't, given their overall high-quality standards.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 15:12:15
(permalink)
Frostysnake
@Red...man you you helped me by asking questions here and at the same time opened up a huge can of worms...Session Drummer 3...no problem...I can make everything do what I need. Superior 2...I am lost...I can not tell from the mixer in S2 what is what as far as tracks go in X2...I also cannot get S2 to save custom kits for the DR880...it saves some of the pieces but when I close out and restart it,load my saved kit and then it's all screwed up...pad 11 won't stay a tom and becomes a cymbal while the ride and bell go back to how it was originally in S2 before I remapped them how I wanted using LEARN ...I am so ticked I can't even see now...can you(or anyone) guide me??
I dunno man. I gave up on trying to get my DR-880 and Toontrack software to play nice. I don't know how to create a drum map, don't really even know what one is, and even if I did create one, I wouldn't know what to do with it. And to be honest, not even 100% sure that is what's needed to get those to things to play nice. The one time that I sent a signal from the 880 to SD, I created the MIDI track, saved it. I then had to manually edit that midi track to get the SD drums to sound like the 880s drum beat.
Rick - Sofware Engineer by trade, Rock Star God wannabe Sonar X3 Producer
Roland Octa-Capture
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra
Boss DR-880
Boss GT100
Line 6 Pod X3
Yamaha HS 50M
Focusrite VRM Box
Audio-Technica ATH M-50
Various guitars and amps
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 15:15:11
(permalink)
bitflipper
There is certainly room for Toontracks to make improvements to Superior's UI. I don't know why they don't, given their overall high-quality standards.
For me the biggest thing that I don't like is the small area you get to work with in the mixer. Why not allow SD to take up a bigger window so we don't have to scroll from left to right all the time in the mix window???? Also would be SUPER cool if you could use 3rd party VSTs on the drums from within SD. Having said that, I plan on using their presets for now. In fact I just purchased the presets that go with the Metal Foundry package.
Rick - Sofware Engineer by trade, Rock Star God wannabe Sonar X3 Producer
Roland Octa-Capture
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra
Boss DR-880
Boss GT100
Line 6 Pod X3
Yamaha HS 50M
Focusrite VRM Box
Audio-Technica ATH M-50
Various guitars and amps
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 15:17:36
(permalink)
Now I might be able to help you with playing the 880's beats or patterns(let me know if you do, because I can get that done no problem.)...if you want the 88's original drum or bass sounds, then all you have to do is record the 880 through the audio outs which is easy...
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 15:18:40
(permalink)
...and from what I gather, unless you are editing in the PRV, then a drum map is pretty much useless...
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 17:50:45
(permalink)
@ Middleman...that is exactly my problem...I set up everything how I want it WITHIN SD2 and when I call up that preset, it is nothing like what I saved...extremely frustrating and bizarre...basically I can't set Superior to save anything like I want it...I'm not even worried about X2 yet...
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
Middleman
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4397
- Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
- Location: Orange County, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 18:38:56
(permalink)
Frostysnake
@ Middleman...that is exactly my problem...I set up everything how I want it WITHIN SD2 and when I call up that preset, it is nothing like what I saved...extremely frustrating and bizarre...basically I can't set Superior to save anything like I want it...I'm not even worried about X2 yet...
Are you using the load save drop down and then creating a combined preset? That way it gives you the option to save all the settings in Superior. The straight save feature (non combined) won't get you there.
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 22:27:57
(permalink)
Ahhhhh....I just kinda learned that over on Toontrack...then what the hect is the regular Save\Save As good for??
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 22:29:30
(permalink)
This what I wrote over on Toontrack... However,"Save Selected" should be doing what I have been trying to get it to do, which is to simply save my custom kits(no X drums...just the Avatar Kit with the selected drums...no fx, routing or anything special). Am I right here?? This is usually pretty straight fwd in any program...help me out if I am missing anything here. The only other thing I should mention is I am mapping a few of the drums using ACT Learn in Sonar X2, but this shouldn't in my mind effect anything as far as saving a kit, right??
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/25 23:19:24
(permalink)
Wish I could help you out man, but I'm still figuring my way around as well.
Rick - Sofware Engineer by trade, Rock Star God wannabe Sonar X3 Producer
Roland Octa-Capture
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra
Boss DR-880
Boss GT100
Line 6 Pod X3
Yamaha HS 50M
Focusrite VRM Box
Audio-Technica ATH M-50
Various guitars and amps
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/26 06:59:08
(permalink)
lol..glad I'm not alone Red!
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/26 13:42:45
(permalink)
Thanks for mentioning that, Phil. Even after all these years, I'd never used that option! I've always started from a generic user-defined preset, but I think I'll start saving combined presets named for the songs I used them in, for future re-use in similar projects.
I have a few gripes about the UI...it's nice they've provided 16 busses and 16 outputs, but who ever uses them all? We should be able to hide unused channels. I'd also like to see mike channels and busses on separate tabs, with bigger controls and labels. Or at least remember the horizontal slider position between invocations. FX slots, apparently patterned after ProTools, take up 1/3 of the vertical real estate - wasted space, IMO. I rarely use more than 1 or 2 out of the 10 available.
It's still my go-to drum synth, though. But why they didn't include a tambourine in the basic kit beats the heck outa me. Fortunately Jamstix's percussion pack fills out what's missing in SD2. Best tambourines I've got are in there.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Frostysnake
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 722
- Joined: 2006/10/26 14:31:38
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/26 13:59:14
(permalink)
How do you go about saving these presets, Bitflipper? Are you saving them within SD2 or within X2? If you are saving them within X2 how do you go about doing it?
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
|
redbarchetta
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 534
- Joined: 2013/02/16 21:01:12
- Location: Portland Oregon
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/26 14:26:15
(permalink)
Frostysnake
lol..glad I'm not alone Red!
Misery loves company right? I've decided to go the synth route. Been stocking up on Toontrack goodies. Got the Metal Foundry pack... Nice. Plus got the two metal foundry preset packages. REALLY like those. At this point with those presets, I'm not worried as much about bringing in the individual tracks into Sonar and tweaking them now. Maybe in time as my ears develop and become more critical, but for now, those two preset packages are going to take a long way.
Rick - Sofware Engineer by trade, Rock Star God wannabe Sonar X3 Producer
Roland Octa-Capture
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra
Boss DR-880
Boss GT100
Line 6 Pod X3
Yamaha HS 50M
Focusrite VRM Box
Audio-Technica ATH M-50
Various guitars and amps
|
Middleman
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4397
- Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
- Location: Orange County, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Used Superior to create my drums and buses and outputs, but there's a slight problem
2013/03/26 17:57:55
(permalink)
bitflipper
Thanks for mentioning that, Phil. Even after all these years, I'd never used that option! I've always started from a generic user-defined preset, but I think I'll start saving combined presets named for the songs I used them in, for future re-use in similar projects.
I have a few gripes about the UI...it's nice they've provided 16 busses and 16 outputs, but who ever uses them all? We should be able to hide unused channels. I'd also like to see mike channels and busses on separate tabs, with bigger controls and labels. Or at least remember the horizontal slider position between invocations. FX slots, apparently patterned after ProTools, take up 1/3 of the vertical real estate - wasted space, IMO. I rarely use more than 1 or 2 out of the 10 available.
It's still my go-to drum synth, though. But why they didn't include a tambourine in the basic kit beats the heck outa me. Fortunately Jamstix's percussion pack fills out what's missing in SD2. Best tambourines I've got are in there.
NP - After getting burned a few times and having to re-manually configure the routing, I stumbled upon that option. It takes some time to pull up each drum kit and making sure the Superior outputs are routed to Sonar in the way you like and then saving your drumkit as a combined preset, but once it's done, you can quickly pull up any Superior drumkit into a standardized drum template in Sonar. Regarding routing, I find if you EQ and volume control inside of Superior you can bring everything down to 5 stereo tracks into Sonar. Kick, Snare, Toms, Overheads, Room and then compress things inside of Sonar. Makes things much more manageable and if you need to go back and tweak something, you can always jump back into Superior. Makes mixing much more manageable.
|