Helpful ReplyUsing Two Daws Programs To Record (same PC) - Solved

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musicroom
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2009/10/19 17:48:20 (permalink)

Using Two Daws Programs To Record (same PC) - Solved

Solved, see message http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1854645


Message Edit NOTE: I realized I was not being clear so I modified the title to this thread. I am really trying to find a technique to use one DAW Program in the role of a mixer with a "compressor insert" to calm the occasional hot signal - - Porting that signal into another DAW Program on the SAME PC to record the now stable/consistent input. Currently, Sonar effects bin triggers post record. - Apologies and Thank You.






I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - -

Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW?

   - Maybe there is another way and I would like to learn of that - I would rather just stay inside of Sonar. And I do have outboard gear, but I want to know if this works as well.

   - If the method I am inquiring about is doable - has anyone done that and how?

Recording platforms in my studio: SonarPE 8.5 / SoundForge 8 / Project5 2.5 / Reaper3



post edited by musicroom - 2009/10/22 19:09:26

 
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#1
ohhey
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/19 23:12:06 (permalink)
musicroom


I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - -

Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW?

  - Maybe there is another way and I would like to learn of that - I would rather just stay inside of Sonar. And I do have outboard gear, but I want to know if this works as well.

  - If the method I am inquiring about is doable - has anyone done that and how?

Recording platforms in my studio: SonarPE 8.5 / SoundForge 8 / Project5 2.5 / Reaper3
Latency would be an issue and it would cost more then just buying some outboard gear. Also, with hardware effects you can sell them later on e-bay, the PC and software will be worth nothing.  Even after all these years it's still not practical.  Some of the new audio interfaces have effects built in so that might be an option to replace the 1010. This one looks like it has compression available on the inputs (might need to confirm) http://www.focusrite.com/...re/saffire_pro_24_dsp/
Or, maybe even a small digital mixer if you can find one with compression on each channel.


post edited by ohhey - 2009/10/19 23:22:31
#2
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 01:26:36 (permalink)
ohhey


musicroom


I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - -

Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW?

- Maybe there is another way and I would like to learn of that - I would rather just stay inside of Sonar. And I do have outboard gear, but I want to know if this works as well.

- If the method I am inquiring about is doable - has anyone done that and how?

Recording platforms in my studio: SonarPE 8.5 / SoundForge 8 / Project5 2.5 / Reaper3
Latency would be an issue and it would cost more then just buying some outboard gear. Also, with hardware effects you can sell them later on e-bay, the PC and software will be worth nothing.  Even after all these years it's still not practical.  Some of the new audio interfaces have effects built in so that might be an option to replace the 1010. This one looks like it has compression available on the inputs (might need to confirm) http://www.focusrite.com/...re/saffire_pro_24_dsp/
Or, maybe even a small digital mixer if you can find one with compression on each channel.


Thanks ohhey.

I actually own a couple of mid-priced range compressors. Matter if fact - I have a couple of racks of goodies. This is just the MacGyver in me wanting to try something different. I was thinking of maybe trying it using re-wire or maybe the reaper rearoute (sp).



 
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#3
Spaceduck
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 09:58:46 (permalink)
musicroom

This is just the MacGyver in me wanting to try something different.

Go for it, man. That's how some of the best producers found their unique 'sound'.

I've also wondered about the 2 DAW setup. At one time I thought it would be a great way of lightening the load on the CPU by using 1 computer for A/D (recording) and another for D/A (playback). But like ohhey said, there might be latency issues, and you'd need a rock solid wordclock to keep them from drifting.

I might be misunderstanding your question, but could you accomplish the same thing by "re-amping"? That's where you record a track to your DAW usually clean, then later send it out to your hardware or amp, then back again to your DAW. Quite a few forum members do that with guitars & get great results and flexibility.

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#4
ohhey
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 10:49:27 (permalink)
Thanks ohhey.

I actually own a couple of mid-priced range compressors. Matter if fact - I have a couple of racks of goodies. This is just the MacGyver in me wanting to try something different. I was thinking of maybe trying it using re-wire or maybe the reaper rearoute (sp).
What we need is a VST host program that does nothing else and would turn a PC into an effects rack. If there were no DAW functions you would think they could get the latency fairly low. 
 
A lot of software synths can run without a host but I have never seen an effect that can. Don't know why that is, seems like if you can make a VSTi with direct sound card driver access you should be able to make a VST with sound card driver access right ?

#5
dontletmedrown
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 14:49:44 (permalink)
Macgyver is right.  I mean, most people would just monitor through the plug-in and freeze after or just use the outboard comps.  I could see if you were going for some drastic effect, but you mention the goal is subtle compression.  Anyway, don't let me disrupt your fun. 
#6
CJaysMusic
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 18:43:09 (permalink)
I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - -

Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW?


Just get an outboard compressor.
Cj

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#7
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 19:56:40 (permalink)
dontletmedrown


Macgyver is right.  I mean, most people would just monitor through the plug-in and freeze after or just use the outboard comps.  I could see if you were going for some drastic effect, but you mention the goal is subtle compression.  Anyway, don't let me disrupt your fun. 


Thanks and I do that. What I am trying fix "in the box" is when I am recording something that may be uneven or hot so to speak and I want to have some compression on the front end to help catch and smooth/prevent clipping. So I was thinking - maybe use one platform like a mixer with inserts (compression) and record the results in a second platform.

Sounds like from reading these thoughtful replies that I will face too much latency. Really, something like this typical recording practice should be there in the box - somehow - someway. (as MacGyver eyes a paperclip and prepares to track a satellite...)

 
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#8
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/20 19:58:47 (permalink)
CJaysMusic



I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - -

Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW?


Just get an outboard compressor.
Cj
I know - I have two of them. I just wanted to see if this was doable in the box...

Sounds like it can't at this point.





 
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#9
Jim Roseberry
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 00:54:23 (permalink)
I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - - Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW? - Maybe there is another way and I would like to learn of that - I would rather just stay inside of Sonar. And I do have outboard gear, but I want to know if this works as well. - If the method I am inquiring about is doable - has anyone done that and how? Recording platforms in my studio: SonarPE 8.5 / SoundForge 8 / Project5 2.5 / Reaper3

 
If you're going to apply the processing post A/D (via software), there really isn't any advantage to printing the processing. 
IOW, You should just apply it (non-destructively) upon playback... 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#10
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 02:13:48 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry



I sometimes want to use some subtle compression when recording tracks. My question is - - - Is it possible to track through another DAW to capture the output of a track and record in another DAW? - Maybe there is another way and I would like to learn of that - I would rather just stay inside of Sonar. And I do have outboard gear, but I want to know if this works as well. - If the method I am inquiring about is doable - has anyone done that and how? Recording platforms in my studio: SonarPE 8.5 / SoundForge 8 / Project5 2.5 / Reaper3

 
If you're going to apply the processing post A/D (via software), there really isn't any advantage to printing the processing. 
IOW, You should just apply it (non-destructively) upon playback... 
 
 


Hi Jim,

I am looking for a way via software to protect me from the occasional clipping I may get when I run the signal hot. Processing after the recording doesn't help that issue...

BTW - I am still loving the computer. Smooth and powerful - it cuts through daw projects with ease.


Thank You,



 
Dave
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#11
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 02:31:27 (permalink)
ohhey


Thanks ohhey.

I actually own a couple of mid-priced range compressors. Matter if fact - I have a couple of racks of goodies. This is just the MacGyver in me wanting to try something different. I was thinking of maybe trying it using re-wire or maybe the reaper rearoute (sp).
What we need is a VST host program that does nothing else and would turn a PC into an effects rack. If there were no DAW functions you would think they could get the latency fairly low. 
 
A lot of software synths can run without a host but I have never seen an effect that can. Don't know why that is, seems like if you can make a VSTi with direct sound card driver access you should be able to make a VST with sound card driver access right ?

Frank,

You music is outstanding. Like your voice and playing. Nice!





 
Dave
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#12
skullsession
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 07:47:27 (permalink)
You might find some interest in this:

http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/product.html


HOOK:  Skullsessions.com  / Darwins God Album

"Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
#13
ohhey
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 10:49:55 (permalink)
musicroom


ohhey


Thanks ohhey.

I actually own a couple of mid-priced range compressors. Matter if fact - I have a couple of racks of goodies. This is just the MacGyver in me wanting to try something different. I was thinking of maybe trying it using re-wire or maybe the reaper rearoute (sp).
What we need is a VST host program that does nothing else and would turn a PC into an effects rack. If there were no DAW functions you would think they could get the latency fairly low. 

A lot of software synths can run without a host but I have never seen an effect that can. Don't know why that is, seems like if you can make a VSTi with direct sound card driver access you should be able to make a VST with sound card driver access right ?

Frank,

You music is outstanding. Like your voice and playing. Nice!

Thanks, it's nice to hear some feedback now and then. I wish I could get more tunes up there but I just can't seem to make time to do any mixing. I have about 60 songs recorded I just need to get busy and mix some.
#14
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Daws To Record 2009/10/21 12:18:31 (permalink)
skullsession


You might find some interest in this:

http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/product.html


I just looked at this and it might work. I am going to edit the subject line. What I really meant when I said DAW - is DAW Programs like Sonar, etc...


Thank You,

 
Dave
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#15
CJaysMusic
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 08:20:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I realized I was not being clear so I modified the title to this thread. I am really trying to find a technique to use one DAW Program in the role of a mixer with a "compressor insert" to calm the occasional hot signal - - Porting that signal into another DAW Program on the SAME PC to record the now stable/consistent input. Currently, Sonar effects bin triggers post record. - Apologies and Thank You.


Then that wont work FX teleport is for connecting 2 pc's to one DAW.
 
Also, after your signal crosses the A/D converter in your sound card, nothing, i mean nothing will prevent it from clipping if its clipping at the A/D point. so you need to insert a compressor or limiter before it hits your sound cards A/D converter. If your signal is in your pc, then its too late

www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
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#16
skullsession
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 12:46:47 (permalink)
Right...this whole topic is a bit bunk.  Especially when you go and change the meaning of the entire thread at the last moment....

Right...if you LIKE the sound of compression, record through hardware compression and be done with it.

HOOK:  Skullsessions.com  / Darwins God Album

"Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
#17
mattplaysguitar
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 18:38:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Yeah, as CJ said, if the signal is clipping when it hits your A/D then you would only be applying compression AFTER it had clipped, which is useless. No software can amend this. You need hardware. You need to tame the signal BEFORE it is converted to 1's and 0's. Which means a compressor or limiter hardware unit.

That said, why not just record in 24 bit and turn the gain down enough so that you can't clip it, even if you try? Noisefloor in 16 bit is -96dB, and it's at -144dB in 24 bit recording (though I did read somewhere once that hardware is incapable of actually reaching -144 in MANY cases, and realistically only makes it to 20bit equivalent, but don't quote me). Eitherway, the noise floor is going to be less than the noise of your equipment or the background noise if you record in 24 bit, but maybe not if you run 16 bit. So run 24 bit with low gain and be happy!

Though I do understand that sometimes you want the higher gain for direct monitoring because your soundcard doesn't have enough headphone gain available. I have run into that problem before. Best solution would be to just deal with it, or, get another preamp for your headphones.


Currently recording my first album, so if you like my music, please follow me on Facebook!
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#18
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 18:59:48 (permalink)
skullsession


Right...this whole topic is a bit bunk.  Especially when you go and change the meaning of the entire thread at the last moment....

Right...if you LIKE the sound of compression, record through hardware compression and be done with it.


I only changed the Subject line - not the meaning. My quest all along has been to use compression occasionally to help tame a hot signal that I am "recording" into my Daw. Not looking for a compression sound per se - I can do that a number of ways "post" recorded track.

I am wanting to be able to do this within one PC, in real time, so... I am looking for answers here in the Techniques Forum. This is a normal method of recording in most studios. But is usually done using outboard compressors (which I have two).  I have some ideas to try - I will post the results. Just hoping for some insight or brainstorming from others.
 
Since I am responding to your post skull - why the two condescending comments to someone looking for a technique in the techniques forum???




 
Dave
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#19
CJaysMusic
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 19:05:22 (permalink)

My quest all along has been to use compression occasionally to help tame a hot signal that I am "recording" into my Daw
I am wanting to be able to do this within one PC, in real time, so... I am looking for answers here in the Techniques Forum.

 
Like i said earlier, once it passes your sound cards A/D converter, its too late to tame clips and peaks. You need an outboard compressor. Once you clip your A/D converter, your signal cannot be un-clipped. Meaning you need to have a compressor/limiter before your sound cards a/D converter. Its black and white. And That's a PC recording fact.
Cj

www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
Audio Blog
#20
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 19:05:37 (permalink)
mattplaysguitar


Yeah, as CJ said, if the signal is clipping when it hits your A/D then you would only be applying compression AFTER it had clipped, which is useless. No software can amend this. You need hardware. You need to tame the signal BEFORE it is converted to 1's and 0's. Which means a compressor or limiter hardware unit.

That said, why not just record in 24 bit and turn the gain down enough so that you can't clip it, even if you try? Noisefloor in 16 bit is -96dB, and it's at -144dB in 24 bit recording (though I did read somewhere once that hardware is incapable of actually reaching -144 in MANY cases, and realistically only makes it to 20bit equivalent, but don't quote me). Eitherway, the noise floor is going to be less than the noise of your equipment or the background noise if you record in 24 bit, but maybe not if you run 16 bit. So run 24 bit with low gain and be happy!

Though I do understand that sometimes you want the higher gain for direct monitoring because your soundcard doesn't have enough headphone gain available. I have run into that problem before. Best solution would be to just deal with it, or, get another preamp for your headphones.

Thanks CJ and Matt
- now that makes a lot of sense about the clipping between the soundcard prior to the signal reaching the software. So with that said, thanks to all for helping me put this one to sleep for now.




 
Dave
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#21
skullsession
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 19:33:14 (permalink)
I didn't mean to sound harsh.  Sorry for that.

It's just that when you said DAW, I think most of us were assuming you meant a second computer altogether.....which explains the answers you were getting from the beginning.

And it wasn't until LATER that you said you were trying to prevent CLIPPING, which obviously is a whole different ball game.  I apparently missed your "clarification" later....

Again....sorry for coming off like a twat.

HOOK:  Skullsessions.com  / Darwins God Album

"Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
#22
musicroom
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Re:Using Two Days To Record 2009/10/22 19:40:32 (permalink)
skullsession


I didn't mean to sound harsh.  Sorry for that.

It's just that when you said DAW, I think most of us were assuming you meant a second computer altogether.....which explains the answers you were getting from the beginning.

And it wasn't until LATER that you said you were trying to prevent CLIPPING, which obviously is a whole different ball game.  I apparently missed your "clarification" later....

Again....sorry for coming off like a twat.


You are the man! Thank you for that. Most people would send me the invisible finger at this point. Take care and I hope we help each other along the way.




 
Dave
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