Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?)

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Beepster
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2015/01/08 15:52:58 (permalink)

Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?)

Having an annoying day due to meatworld mayhem but sometimes being distracted makes ideas pop up. I guess this isn't particularly a revolutionary idea and I should have realized it way sooner than now but I am always trying to improve my input signal BEFORE tracking to minimize screwing around in the mixing phase.
 
Well a few months back I picked up a VRM Box from Focusrite for the intended purpose of just being able to check mixes... pretty much what it's designed to do. Lately I've been screwing around with my input signals via my amps/mixer/guitar/mics/etc hoping to get things sounding nicer on the initial recordings. The results are getting better but inevitably after hours of dialing in tones with headphones on and recording something I'll listen back and it's not quite what I remember dialing in (ear fatigue, getting too close to the sound, ineptitude, incomeptence, whatever). Now I'm thinking maybe I should try using the VRM while I'm dialing in tones so I'm not getting too close to the signal and get a better idea of how what I'm doing may sound on other sound sources. I'm hoping maybe getting better and more useful/versatile takes printed.
 
Just wondering if anyone else is doing this and if so maybe post their experiences. Due to the absolutely horrendous soundproofing in this place and the cramped quarters in my "studio" (I never should have moved here... ugh) I'm stuck with a completely DI/headphone based operation.
 
No bigs and I'm going to try it out anyway when time allows but thought it might be an interesting discussion.
 
Cheers.
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    Starise
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    Re: Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?) 2015/01/09 12:32:52 (permalink)
    Great to hear from you Beepster!!!.....I can only give you my opinion. I think that it has a lot to do with the final translation to real systems. I remember reading about and almost buying a VRM box. I liked the idea behind what it was attempting to accomplish. I have a similar thing now in ARC 2 when I use the settings that mimic different kinds of playback systems...so I can't comment on exactly what it is you're doing but I do something similar with ARC 2.
     
    I'm really happy with the examples in ARC2 . I have found that a mix that sounds good across most of those will sound good just about everywhere. I think something like the VRM would be a nice way to get a few examples of real world systems. Since the VRM was designed for headphones I'm thinking that it must be acoustically adapted to compensate for the differences in hearing a mix through headphones and through studio monitors...and to me, no matter how convincing it sounds I would still want to hear the mix through an air space between studio monitors at some point. Our brains process the aural information a lot differently at a small distance as opposed to directly in the ear. In hearing with open monitoring our ears are made to naturally use the air space for direction and perception. Hearing on a set of cans relys more on processing to try and get the same results.
     
    A dry mix won't matter as much because there isn't any processing going on. It seems to be when we use FX and more specifically stereo FX that we get more into spacial distance preception and L/R becomes more important. Someone recently said that they mix mainly for headphones because this is what most people listen on now. I don't agree....there are still plenty of car stereos and computers with cheap speaker systems out there...and still plenty of folks firing up the Bose after work. 
     
    I'm not slamming the VRM at all. I think it would be a great way to get a few more examples of translation to other systems. I'm not sure I would rely on one as a primary mix example unless I found a setting on it that also translated well to a lot of other systems ...like a good set of monitors would.

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    #2
    bapu
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    Re: Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?) 2015/01/09 17:33:22 (permalink)
    Beepster
    (ear fatigue, getting too close to the sound, ineptitude, incomeptence, whatever). 

    The short list for my crappy mixes to be sure.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?) 2015/01/10 15:48:05 (permalink)
    Starise
    Great to hear from you Beepster!!!.....I can only give you my opinion. I think that it has a lot to do with the final translation to real systems. I remember reading about and almost buying a VRM box. I liked the idea behind what it was attempting to accomplish. I have a similar thing now in ARC 2 when I use the settings that mimic different kinds of playback systems...so I can't comment on exactly what it is you're doing but I do something similar with ARC 2.
     
    I'm really happy with the examples in ARC2 . I have found that a mix that sounds good across most of those will sound good just about everywhere. I think something like the VRM would be a nice way to get a few examples of real world systems. Since the VRM was designed for headphones I'm thinking that it must be acoustically adapted to compensate for the differences in hearing a mix through headphones and through studio monitors...and to me, no matter how convincing it sounds I would still want to hear the mix through an air space between studio monitors at some point. Our brains process the aural information a lot differently at a small distance as opposed to directly in the ear. In hearing with open monitoring our ears are made to naturally use the air space for direction and perception. Hearing on a set of cans relys more on processing to try and get the same results.
     
    A dry mix won't matter as much because there isn't any processing going on. It seems to be when we use FX and more specifically stereo FX that we get more into spacial distance preception and L/R becomes more important. Someone recently said that they mix mainly for headphones because this is what most people listen on now. I don't agree....there are still plenty of car stereos and computers with cheap speaker systems out there...and still plenty of folks firing up the Bose after work. 
     
    I'm not slamming the VRM at all. I think it would be a great way to get a few more examples of translation to other systems. I'm not sure I would rely on one as a primary mix example unless I found a setting on it that also translated well to a lot of other systems ...like a good set of monitors would.




    Hiya, buddy. Good to see you too. Been diggin' your updates, interviews, etc for your site even though I don't get as much chance to check it all out as I'd like to. Good to know it's all there for perusal when I need so as just one internet dude to another I for one appreciate the efforts.
     
    ARC is on my list of kit to buy but it is definitely out of my price range at the moment. It also wouldn't be much use to me in my current place due to the poor soundproofing in my place. I COULD mix through my monitors but considering I can hear my neighbors fart (literally) it would be a bit of a dick move on my part. I do however make sure to give anything I'm working on a good crank through them when I'm finishing up. It gives me a good idea of anything that needs tweaks for real world air throwing. Seriously I'm PEEVED about this place because I asked about the soundproofing multiple times before taking the place and I was more or less lied to.
     
    But... I'm here so I have to work with what I've got. That's why I picked up the VRM Box which is obviously a little less expensive than ARC and is intended for headphone production. Once I get into a new place (I'm currently biding my time for some things to come together then I should be in a more useable environment) then ARC will likely be my next "major" purchase. Bitflipper (BTW I checked out your interview with him when you posted it a while back... cool stuff) had posted instructions to the forum for a "poor man's" room correction using (I think) pink noise that I want to try. My mics probably won't be sufficient for such an experiment (and something else I need to invest in) but it seemed cool and I'd like to try it out.
     
    For now though I have the VRM Box. It's actually pretty decent and since you have the site going maybe you can work something out with the Focusrite guys to try it out. Most definitely it is not a replacement for a properly tuned studio but as a reference it is really kind of crazy. It seriously sounds EXACTLY like you are sitting in a room with real speakers pushing air. When I was first playing with it, even though I hadn't turned my monitors on in ages, I kept taking my headphones of to make sure that I had not somehow gotten selective amnesia and turned them on in some blackout state. I haven't done any full mixes with it yet (I've been working on other music related but not actual production stuff the past few months) but a huge problem I was having was my mixes not transferring very well to other sound sources. I can definitely see this helping with that.
     
    The other other thing I like about it is it works as a standalone ASIO interface. It obviously doesn't have any inputs and unfortunately it is limited to 48k/24bit or less when being used this way but I figure it'll be a convenient way to do MIDI stuff on my laptop without resorting to the crummier driver modes and/or using my onboard sound. Haven't tried that yet but I probably will soon. Currently it's hooked up VIA SPDIF to my Scarlett on my studio rig which is brilliant. It doesn't do jack all until I turn it on through the software and it doesn't need to be inserted into any FX bins or anything weird like that.
     
    As far as the premise of this thread goes the hilarious part is yesterday I got all ready to test this out but then just started tracking after zeroing the EQ on my (hardware) mixer and fiddling with my pedal/amp a bit then unmuting my sim guitar tracks (which were not sounding very punchy but the distorted in was sound TOO punchy no matter what I did) and they blending beautifully. So I got so in the zone I just tracked without ever turning on the VRM thingie. lol
     
    Still though, with all the experimenting I intend to do with my input signals whether using hardware effects, amp sims, whatever I guess there isn't really any reason to not try things through the VRM sims while tweaking the input. These past few years I keep getting obsessed with doing things "wrong" but then I forget all my years of not giving a flying fart and just doing what works out of necessity with what is available. All the egghead stuff I've been learning certainly helps because my stuff REALLY sucked when I first started getting to recording but I guess it's time to go back to going with my gut and ears. Damned headphones all the time makes it hard to trust the latter though but I'm getting the hang of only giving myself a 2 hour window where my tweaks can be considered valid. After that I shoudl just shut up and play and listen back the next day or week or whatever.
     
     
     
    Anyway... I am curious about on thing, you mentioned, and I may have misread this, that ARC 2 is allowing you to switch to different emulated listening conditions? I didn't realize it had this function. If so that would be ultra cool. That's essentially what the VRM box does but obvioulsy that is only for headphones. If I could get that through my monitors on top of the room correction... well I'd definitely need to get it in my toolbox.
    #4
    Beepster
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    Re: Using VRM Box to dial in guitar/vocal/etc input before tracking...(?) 2015/01/10 15:53:50 (permalink)
    bapu
    Beepster
    (ear fatigue, getting too close to the sound, ineptitude, incomeptence, whatever). 

    The short list for my crappy mixes to be sure.




    I'm apparently so incomeptent I can't even speel "incompetence". lulzity...
     
    Seriously tho... why doesn't Firefox spellchecker work on this forum anymore? I blame the CH'ers. They dun borked with it so bad it gave up trying.
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