Using VST drum machines WITHOUT midi-out

Hi guys! 
 
Just wanted to know how you guys deal with VST drum machines in Sonar? I'm currently using Sonar X3 and by biggest PIA are VST drum machines. Why? 
 
My favorite drum machines don't have MIDI out for some reason and for some reason you're not able to record VST drum machines in Sonar either and the worst thing is that most drum machines don't even have a stepsequencing for patterns (AudioRealism being one of those machines that actually has that). 
And I don't really fancy Sonar X3s stepsequencer since most of the times MIDI-channels tend to be really random, at least when using Session Drummer. 
 
So most of the time I just use drum-machines own sequencer and when I'm done with drum sounds I just bounce the WAV out and replace the VST with that wav. For some reason freezing wont work either (I suppose because there is not actual midi-information in there)..
 
Anyway, I just wanted to know if you guys have any good workflows using VST drum-machines? 
 
-Teo

Hey guys! I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough! And thanks for quick replys!
 
I was referring to VST drum machines, such as D16 stuff, drumazon, nepheton and niphonat. 
 
Maybe I can be a bit more clear with my problems. I suppose it's more like I'd like to things to be as convenient as possible. 
 
First of all, some virtual drum machines, like Drumazon, doesn't have MIDI-output nor (at least i'm not aware) pattern based play to use in Sonar stepsequencer, and when I'm not able to record virtual drum machines in Sonar if they don't have MIDI-output.. so what's the best way to use such a drum-machine? Just use Sonar step sequencer? Not not use that nice GUI of that drum machine? Especially because then I can't use ie. virtual drum machines suffle? Or Am I missing something here? 
 
My problem with Session Drummer is that it's not very practical, at least I don't find it practical. I don't fancy those in-built sounds so much, especially when I've my sample libraries, so I will be changing samples and having ie. 3 snare samples and 3 bass drum samples, not to mention that changing one sample requires 3 mouse clicks, so browsing 100 snare sounds takes quite a while..  and in Session drummers MIDI-track numbers and GUI is a total mess. 
 
But yeah, I suppose there is not a very good solution here. I actually didn't use any DAW for quite a long while just because I thought user interfaces were so unpractical. Sonar X1 was the first one I liked, and believe me I tried every single DAW out there after ~2000 or so. 
 
Gotta just bite the bullet I suppose. 
 
Thanks guys!
 
ps. Nice guitar Twaddle!
 

Seems to be an issue of not understanding the flow (maybe.) 
In Sonar, you can trigger the drums with MIDI while Sonar is recording the MIDI performance.  The recording is done before the data hits the VST, not after.  The audio is rendered from the same MIDI performance that you recorded.
 
Then you can use that MIDI data to play different drum samplers, or use Drum Maps for multiple drum samplers, or, use a CAL script to split to note and have each drum (or cymbal) on its own track.
 
Brian

Why can't you save the Midi file from Drumazon and import it into Sonar? That would seem to do what you want based on your post. Otherwise, you'll want some type of Midi instrument, either a keyboard or something with pads, so that you can play the drums and record what you play into Sonar.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Hi guys, I still get back to this, just because when ever I work with Sonar I get frustrated with these issues.. 
Can I ask one more time that: Why can't I just record VST drum machine, like Drumazon? I can sure freeze it if I've the MIDI information there, but when using Drumazons own internal sequencer I can't record the audio that's coming out. 
 
About exporting midi-files out of Drumazon and then importing them to Sonar: That doesn't work since Drumazon saves patches in .xml format and Sonar want sspl for step sequencer. 
 
About saving/loading Sonar step-sequencer files, I suppose this method starts to work when I've done my own patches for every VST-drum machine, since it seems like different drum machines have different MIDI-channel settings..
 
Anyway, thank you guys! 

This is not my wheel house but it seems like you should be able to use "bounce to track" or process -> apply effects to render an audio file.
 
Rocky 

John! Thank you for your reply! 
 
Unfortunately Drumazon doesn't have MIDI-output for some reason, I think some other D16 drum-machines don't have either, if it would have MIDI-output I wouldn't have any problems.
 
And yes, I've noticed that Sonar is not meant to work that way, but in my book that's just really weird. Having a patch cable coming from my interfaces outputs to inputs just to be able to record something INSIDE my DAW seems like something I shouldn't have to do.. 
 
Anyway, thank you for your input everybody! 
 

John
 
You don't need MIDI output. You need to trigger the D16 from Sonar. This is done with a MIDI track or clip outputting to the D16. All you want are the sounds it makes.

I think what's being missed here by those trying to help is that the D16 is not just a sound module or a typical drum synth that's responding to MIDI sent from the host (either sequenced by the user or dragged into a track from a pattern library in the synth GUI). It's a virtual model of a classic hardware drum machine that generates patterns in real-time based on settings you make in the GUI.
 
Since it doesn't send MIDI Out, and SONAR can't "record" the real-time output internally, there's no way to capture the drum machine's real-time output in SONAR.
 
The only solution to that problem, as the OP had correctly concluded, is a hardware loopback of the audio output of the synth to be recorded in real-time. Some interfaces can do this internally via a digital mixer path that makes it somewhat less awkward and not subject to D/A/D quality losses or amplitude changes.
 
EDIT: I should add that there is the Non-fast-bounce-with-live-input workaround for "recording" soft synth output that could work here, but it's awkward and has limitations. Loopback is ultimately a lot simpler.
 
 

Control

Drumazon has extensive midi control. Midi notes can be used to trigger each individual sound. Alternatively, the internal sequencer can be used. This can be set to play using Drumazon's internal clock or set to synchronize perfectly to the host sequencer.
Most of Drumazon's parameters can be automated within the host and also controlled using MidiCC with an external controller. An easy-to-use Midi Learn function allows reassignment of any of the parameters.
 
I'm not understanding how this is different then 100 other drum synths.  BFD does this and most of us (sic) use it.
 
Brian
 
 

I know this is an old post, but there is another way to record the audio directly.  If you have Guitar rig, there is a built-in 'tape recorder'...you can put this as a plug-in on an audio track and just hit the record and play buttons on the tape recorder when you're ready to record.  When finished, save the audio wav file wherever you like in your hard drive.  This method is actually a real-time recording of what you do with the vst drum machine.  It has both positive and negative aspects.  There is no midi data that is recorded, so it's a one shot deal...but if you're interested in being able to record on the fly as you're playing the vst drum machine, this is an option.
 

I'm not familiar with Ipswich...is that similar to the method i described?

Adroit as ever, Scook.  Synth Recording is a nice feature, but the OP mentioned Sonar X3.  It's time for Funkbear to upgrade if that hasn't happened already!

ricoskyl
Adroit as ever, Scook.  Synth Recording is a nice feature, but the OP mentioned Sonar X3.  It's time for Funkbear to upgrade if that hasn't happened already!

If the OP has not upgraded hopefully they found a solution by now. Using recorder plug-ins has been suggested before on several other threads about this subject.