vaultwit
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Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
Consider a simple setup of a vocal signal with a delay effect being applied to it. I want to use sidechain compression to lower the delay volume when the lead vocal is playing. This way, I can have the delay ring out when the singer stops but lower when the singer sings again.
The problem is, I cannot find a way to apply the compression to JUST the delay signal without ALSO applying it to the dry signal. I don't know how to separate the dry and wet to achieve this. Even if I create a send on the vocal track to the effects bus containing the delay, it sends the dry signal with it so the compressor placed after the delay effect compresses both.
Thanks in advance.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:15:48
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Not sure I'm following quite correctly but wouldn't this achieve what you want? Set up a delay 100% wet on a buss. On the delay buss insert a compressor with a side chain facility on it and set up the compressor to duck the delay On the vocal track insert a send to the sidechain of the compressor on the delay buss (leave the track output to it's original output buss be that vocal, master, etc) Finally on the vocal track insert a send directly to the buss. The tricky bit will be setting up the release on the compressor I'd have thought. EDITED:... for clarity.
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2012/10/21 18:12:24
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:20:16
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FastBikerBoy
Not sure I'm following quite correctly but wouldn't this achieve what you want?
Set up a delay 100% wet on a buss, send the lead vocal to it.
Set up a side chain compressor on the delay buss with required compression to duck the delay
Insert a send to the sidechain of the compressor on the delay buss
The tricky bit will be setting up the release on the compressor I'd have thought.
Yes that could work. But what if the delay effect does not have a a wet/dry option? What if the effect I want to use is not delay, but some other effect, which does not have a wet/dry option?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:32:13
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I can't think of any delay that doesn't have some sort of mix switch or ability to separate the two in some way. Or any other effect without one for that matter so it shouldn't be an issue.
Having said that if you ever found one with no control that was split in some arbitrary way say 50/50 wet/dry the simple answer is you can't separate them.
Other than that the easy way to split wet/dry is use a buss. Everything on the buss needs to be 100% wet, set up a send on the (dry) track and control the amount of delay/reverb/other effect using the send level.
I rarely use effects on a track, I prefer the flexibility of a buss. Even using BREVERB in the PC I use busses with various reverbs set up and send tracks to them.
The only thing I usually use on tracks are processors such as EQ and Compressors for effects (delay/chorus/reverb/etc) I use busses.
The wet and dry signal is then summed at another buss usually the master.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:34:23
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Awesome question!!!
I've always wondered about this.. You know, "Taylor Dane is singing along, and all of a sudden when she finishes the line, a big huge reverb comes out of nowhere."
I've always thought this was done via, "manual automation of the faders on the desk, via a human hand." But its quite possible that this is done with ducking!! It probably is.. lol..
Meanwhile, I do not think a compressor is the tool you want here.. I think you are actually looking for a gate.. When the vocal stops, the gate on the reverb/delay or whatever, than opens.. How to set this up.. I've got no clue!! But I can't wait to read the answer..
I'm just marking my spot, to subscribe to the thread and read it quite possibly when more folk arrive... to give their insight
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:38:41
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A gate could be set up in the same way by using the side chain.
Having said that I don't think I'd do either apart from in a live situation. In the studio I'd just use an envelope on the delay buss send level and control the level of delay as required.
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:40:00
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Ok I'm sorry, I was being unclear on what I mentioned earlier about no dry/wet option on the effect. All effects DO have a way to balance between the dry signal and wet signal, but most only allow you to change the wet level. In other words, most effects have a "wet level" knob, but not all effects have both a "wet level" knob AND a "dry level" knob. The particular delay effect I'm using only has wet level control, so there is no way to lower the dry signal to zero within the effect. So as long as I am compressing after this delay, I will always be compressing the dry signal with it.
About the alternative method you talked about, you said "Everything on the buss needs to be 100% wet." If this means lowering the "dry level" knob within each of the plugins in the bus, I can't do it with the plugin I am using.
I hope all this makes sense... I am still convinced there is a way to do it, and I'm just missing something.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:46:12
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Well.. If you are going to sidechain you need at least two audio sources.. For example, a kick side-chaining the bass... You are not going to side-chain the delay on a vocal if: The vocal is on track 1, the delay is in the bin of track 1.
You need something like.. Vocal on Track 1. Delay set to 100% wet on a bus.. but you wont get side-chaining with a compressor unless you've got another audio source from somewhere.. so.. you are probably looking for a way to do this with a gate.. I've got no idea how to set it up..
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:46:33
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If it has a wet knob then surely 100% wet = 0% dry? Does on every effect I've ever used anyway. What effect is it?
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:49:38
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You see because.. If the delay is on Bus C for example, and you have the vocal on track 1.. that you definitely have vocals and delay separate... but that will not do anything if you send the vocal to the compressors input.. because you lack another audio source this way...
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:51:14
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FastBikerBoy
If it has a wet knob then surely 100% wet = 0% dry? Does on every effect I've ever used anyway. What effect is it?
Most effects I use have a single knob or slider labeled "delay level." If this level is put to zero, all you hear is 100% dry. There is no way to make it 100% wet using effects like these. In this situation, I am using the delay from the z3ta+ effect plugin. If you've got a moment, take a look at this video where this guy explains pre/post faders within Pro Tools. When he changes the snare->reverb from "post" to "pre", he is able to lower the fader on the dry snare while leaving the volume of the reverb unchanged. Do you think he just has the reverb effect set to 100% wet within the plugin?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:53:54
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I see no reason why the vocal track can't be used into the sidechain of a gate/compressor on the delay buss.
You can insert as many buss sends as you want on a track/buss. I still don't think that's the best way to do what the OP is trying to achieve though. Envelope on the delay buss send level is the way I'd go.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:54:00
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huh? If you kick the delay mix fade up to 100% on the Z3ta + fx, you are getting a 100% wet...
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 03:59:08
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Most effects I use have a single knob or slider labeled "delay level." If this level is put to zero, all you hear is 100% dry. There is no way to make it 100% wet using effects like these. In this situation, I am using the delay from the z3ta+ effect plugin.
At 100% wet it should be delay only. If it isn't then the answer to your question is you can't. Either use a different delay (the sonitus for example) or a send envelope on the delay.
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:01:32
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FastBikerBoy
I see no reason why the vocal track can't be used into the sidechain of a gate/compressor on the delay buss.
You can insert as many buss sends as you want on a track/buss. I still don't think that's the best way to do what the OP is trying to achieve though. Envelope on the delay buss send level is the way I'd go.
Because if you use a plugin that does not allow 100% wet (like my case), then the delay buss does not play just the delay signal. It plays the dry signal as well--and you do not want to compress the dry signal, only the delay. This is the reason I would not use envelopes: I am trying to achieve this sidechain effect in order to prevent the wet signal from drowning out the main vocal signal while still maintaining loud delay effect tails. So basically, every time the singer sings in the song, the wet delay is lowered a little bit so that it does not overpower the main vocals. Does this make sense? FastBikerBoy
At 100% wet it should be delay only. If it isn't then the answer to your question is you can't. Either use a different delay (the sonitus for example) or a send envelope on the delay.
But the thing is, I can't set it to 100% wet. The dry signal is fixed, and I can only raise/lower the delay volume. I can't change the dry volume.
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wmb
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:11:33
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vaultwit
So as long as I am compressing after this delay, I will always be compressing the dry signal with it.
With sidechaining you are not exactly compressing. The send to the sidechain input is using the gain reduction element to duck whatever source is on the input/output on the compressor while the sidechain send signal level is above the threshold.
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:13:28
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wmb
vaultwit
So as long as I am compressing after this delay, I will always be compressing the dry signal with it.
With sidechaining you are not exactly compressing. The send to the sidechain input is using the gain reduction element to duck whatever source is on the input/output on the compressor while the sidechain send signal level is above the threshold.
Yes I understand that, but since the delay plugin I'm using does not allow me to set 100% wet, the signal that I am compressing contains the dry signal in it as well as the wet signal. I only want to compress the wet signal. Hope that makes sense
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:15:00
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vaultwit
FastBikerBoy
I see no reason why the vocal track can't be used into the sidechain of a gate/compressor on the delay buss.
You can insert as many buss sends as you want on a track/buss. I still don't think that's the best way to do what the OP is trying to achieve though. Envelope on the delay buss send level is the way I'd go.
Because if you use a plugin that does not allow 100% wet (like my case), then the delay buss does not play just the delay signal. It plays the dry signal as well--and you do not want to compress the dry signal, only the delay.
This is the reason I would not use envelopes: I am trying to achieve this sidechain effect in order to prevent the wet signal from drowning out the main vocal signal while still maintaining loud delay effect tails. So basically, every time the singer sings in the song, the wet delay is lowered a little bit so that it does not overpower the main vocals. Does this make sense?
FastBikerBoy
At 100% wet it should be delay only. If it isn't then the answer to your question is you can't. Either use a different delay (the sonitus for example) or a send envelope on the delay.
But the thing is, I can't set it to 100% wet. The dry signal is fixed, and I can only raise/lower the delay volume. I can't change the dry volume.
If you can't get 100% wet then the simple answer is you can't. Why not use a different delay if that's the case? The sonitus delay is excellent IMHO. An envelope will achieve exactly what you want though. The only difference is you'll have to draw/record it rather than the desired effect happening in real time.
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:23:15
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FastBikerBoy
vaultwit
FastBikerBoy
I see no reason why the vocal track can't be used into the sidechain of a gate/compressor on the delay buss.
You can insert as many buss sends as you want on a track/buss. I still don't think that's the best way to do what the OP is trying to achieve though. Envelope on the delay buss send level is the way I'd go.
Because if you use a plugin that does not allow 100% wet (like my case), then the delay buss does not play just the delay signal. It plays the dry signal as well--and you do not want to compress the dry signal, only the delay.
This is the reason I would not use envelopes: I am trying to achieve this sidechain effect in order to prevent the wet signal from drowning out the main vocal signal while still maintaining loud delay effect tails. So basically, every time the singer sings in the song, the wet delay is lowered a little bit so that it does not overpower the main vocals. Does this make sense?
FastBikerBoy
At 100% wet it should be delay only. If it isn't then the answer to your question is you can't. Either use a different delay (the sonitus for example) or a send envelope on the delay.
But the thing is, I can't set it to 100% wet. The dry signal is fixed, and I can only raise/lower the delay volume. I can't change the dry volume.
If you can't get 100% wet then the simple answer is you can't. Why not use a different delay if that's the case? The sonitus delay is excellent IMHO.
An envelope will achieve exactly what you want though. The only difference is you'll have to draw/record it rather than the desired effect happening in real time.
You're right, I'll just have to use a different effect. I don't like the sonitus delay because I use ping delay a lot, and I don't think you can with sonitus. And yes I know the envelope method will work, but it's just not practical to manually lower the volume each and every time the singer says a word. That would be the same thing as automating the volume of a vocal track manually using an envelope instead of using a vocal compressor. Thanks for your help though, at least I know what direction to head now. EDIT: Also, sonitus delay does not allow more than 1 delay simultaneously. I forgot to mention that the main reason I like the z3ta+ delay is because you can have up to 3 delays at a time. Is there even any delay in SONAR that can do that besides z3ta+??
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:26:14
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it's just not practical to manually lower the volume each and every time the singer says a word. That would be the same thing as automating the volume of a vocal track manually using an envelope instead of using a vocal compressor. Well, I do both on every single vocal track I've ever recorded. Volume automation for "coarse" leveling, Compression for "fine" leveling I'm pretty sure this is common practice across the industry. Ity might be time consuming but it's the one guaranteed way to get your vocals sitting nicely in the mix.
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jb101
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:39:55
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☄ Helpful
Bristol_Jonesey
it's just not practical to manually lower the volume each and every time the singer says a word. That would be the same thing as automating the volume of a vocal track manually using an envelope instead of using a vocal compressor.
Well, I do both on every single vocal track I've ever recorded.
Volume automation for "coarse" leveling, Compression for "fine" leveling
I'm pretty sure this is common practice across the industry.
Ity might be time consuming but it's the one guaranteed way to get your vocals sitting nicely in the mix.
+1
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 04:43:52
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EDIT: Also, sonitus delay does not allow more than 1 delay simultaneously. I forgot to mention that the main reason I like the z3ta+ delay is because you can have up to 3 delays at a time. Is there even any delay in SONAR that can do that besides z3ta+??
Insert 3 copies of it.......
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 05:17:54
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BTW....Why can't you use a different delay factor for each side of the sonitus to ping pong with?
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Rasure
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 05:56:38
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Ive found it quite awkward to duck a delay via sidechain suitably. What I tend to do now is use this http://www.gvst.co.uk/gdelay.htm on the vocal track, set the dry knob to -Inf db, increase the Effect knob to hear just the delay, then get your delay sounding how you want, then export just the delay as a wave file, then import the wave file as an audio track, then automate the volume it to suit. Maybe a bit long winded, but you'll have far more control over the delay this way.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 11:10:56
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I've thought this over. I do this in my music all the time. I never knock what anybody is saying or doing, and I am always looking to evolve my sound; but after sleeping on it: How this is done, is by using faders and automation. Not ducking, not sidechaining.
It is possible to achieve something close through the use of envelope following, and ducking if you have access to a gate, that allows you to flip the threshold, and can figure out the routing.
The classic way of doing this is: A. Have you fx on a send. B. When you want the fx, bring up the volume of the sound.
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pwal
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 11:40:46
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clone the vocal track & do the ducking/delay on that, then mix in to suit
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swamptooth
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 15:13:50
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FastBikerBoy
EDIT: Also, sonitus delay does not allow more than 1 delay simultaneously. I forgot to mention that the main reason I like the z3ta+ delay is because you can have up to 3 delays at a time. Is there even any delay in SONAR that can do that besides z3ta+??
Insert 3 copies of it.......
hey karl... that doesn't actually wind up working like a triple delay in z3ta. each delay feeds the next so you get delays of delays. z3 works like having multiple independent delays. what you'd need to have is 3 buses set up each with their own delay units and send those buses to a delay mix bus.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 15:24:04
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Hi there
Thanks for that, I'm just showing my ignorance on how the z3ta delay works, it's not something I've used as an effect before.
I assumed it just delayed the delays.... something else learnt.
Thanks.
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swamptooth
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 15:38:03
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pwal
clone the vocal track & do the ducking/delay on that, then mix in to suit
Exactly - except send the output of the cloned track to a "vocal sidechain" bus with a compressor on it and insert a send on the original vocal track to the compressor's sidechain in. works like a charm.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 16:46:39
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Firstly using a compressor to be sidechained and controlling the output of a delay is a very usable technique and it can be done. Gating is definitely not the correct effect to use in this situation.
The thing about using a compressor to duck anything is that it requires you to spend some time setting the parameters of the compressor correctly and that is where people go wrong and they somehow expect it to be set perfectly and work perfectly the moment you insert the compressor. It won't work very well at first and requires some tweaking.
The Threshold and Ratio determines how far down the compressor is going to duck. Sometimes it has to be set so the compressor ducks quite a lot before it becomes effective. Attack determines how fast the ducking is going to occur once the key signal is present. Release determines the time to which the ducked signal will be returned once the key signal goes away.
All the above posts are good for achieving what the OP wants to do but using a compressor to duck the delay is also very good too. Once you get it set up correctly it will sound very effective. It might save time later because once you do get it working nicely you don't have to worry about it much after that. A compressor is also good from the point of view that the ducked signal will be compressed something you cannot easily do other ways.
It is worth practising doing this because there are other situations where ducking can also be very effective. Ducking Reverb to maintain clarity with vocals is also another great thing to do. Also ducking the bass slightly every time a kick comes along. It improves the bass/kick clarity at that point a lot. But the settings here are quite different than the ducking delay/reverb we have been talking about so far though.
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