Assuming that Roland and Cakewalk made all the right decisions is as naive if not more naive than assuming that they made all the wrong decisions. (Note that I am doing neither. Just speculating and discussing).

UnderTow

I don't assume any such thing. I have absolutely no idea whether it will be a success. And neither do you.

You can double up on the IO box to get 16 XLR inputs. Don't know if you can go to three for 24, though.

ORIGINAL: AT

ducati,

Actually, on the Cake site there was a 360 degree view of the Controller. I noticed a couple of jacks on the back rather than a single conector to the audio interface. I couldn't tell what the jacks were - but it was that view that disappeared. <snip>

There's still a 360 here http://www.sonarvstudio.com/vs-700c.php - 360 link is at bottom right near "back to studio".

I need to upgrade my old aarvark 24/96 what audio card would integrate nice a tight with this new operation system with at min 8in an d8 out?

Not to get into a flame war, but I'd like to respond to a few points (mostly by Undertow)

Jim I think it makes all kinds of sense to launch with a single bundled configuration.....

Undertow: I don't agree with this. All the components of the system should work smoothly with each other whether they are bundled or sold separately. That is inherent in a well designed modular system. The VS-700 product as it stand, still has all the PC compatibility issues a modular system would have. There is no telling whether a potential customer has or doesn't have a second or third audio interface or intends to purchase one later on.

A bundled system only has to work "guaranteed" with kinds of items that aren't part of the bundle (obviously, it's better if it works with more items). Bundling the audio interface with everything else means that the core test matrix only has to include a) the VS-700 components and b) a broad range of representative PCs. The core test matrix does not have to include every kind of Windows-compatible audio interface on the planet. Given how fussy audio and MIDI drivers can be, and how much work I know Roland has put into making drivers that work well under both XP and Vista --- I can easily understand why Cakewalk/Roland decided to focus on a single bundled configuration at launch time. Yes, their initial market will be more limited (or "targeted" as John said), but the odds of a really smooth end-user experience are quite a lot better that way (IMHO).

The biggest hurdle is compatibility with the PC hardware. Modularity of the VS-700 has no bearing on that.

I have to disagree. The biggest hurdle is compatibility with third-party interfaces and things like UAD cards. Roland has invested a lot of sweat into USB drivers (they pioneered USB MIDI, FWIW), and worked very closely with Microsoft to develop optimized USB audio and MIDI drivers (This I know for a fact; I used to do MIDI standards work with the Roland folks involved in that end of things). I understand completely why Roland would have chosen to go with USB, and focus initially on interface hardware that they control completely.

Usually highly successful products are not discontinued.

Uh... What? The Korg Polysix (made enough money to buy an office building in Tokyo) was discontinued after a couple of years (replaced by Poly-61, which was cheaper and sounded worse, IMHO - I helped design both, btw). The Korg M1 defined workstation synths for quite a while, but was eventually discontinued. (Okay, the Triton line was the successor to the M1, and the Oasys/M3/M50 are arguably the latest Korg products in that general category.)

Yes and the industry is rife with companies that have gone bankrupt!

Korg (who I was citing) and Roland have done pretty well for more than 30 years now.

Tyacko: You are leaving out the most important thing in all of this "trouble-free" experience and that is the PC itself. That is where this single bundled configuration will likely fail unless they specifically sell it with a PC that has been certified to work with the bundle.

Well, I actually mentioned that in the next paragraph ... where I said there was a good opportunity for 3rd-party DAW shops. Cakewalk/Roland might very well decide to sell a fully-bundled version (with PC), and/or certify a small number of PCs (as Digi has done). However, customers tend to resist both approaches; they want freedom of choice here (as they do for audio interfaces too - and freedom to choose 'just the control surface', obviously).

Undertow: When a simple design change allows to target both markets, it makes sense to make that small design change. This is not an either or situation.

I agree with that. I'd bet the internal design, right now, will support 'unbundled' use of the control surface. They just haven't chosen to enable that capability at present.

Deciding to launch the VS-700 this way is a marketing decision, not a technical decision. I have no doubt that it would be easy to connect just the control-surface component to a PC (technically speaking). I don't, personally, think it's very plausible that the VS-700 is just a "disassembled Fantom-G that's spread around the room and cabled together". Not unless the Fantom has a heck of a lot more knobs, dials and faders than I'm guessing it does.... and was designed from the get-go to deeply integrate with ACT. So, I'm guessing that the "OS" that runs the control surface -- is running on embedded computer hardware within the console. (In a past life, I worked on big console automation systems at Otari Console Products; our gear had lots of embedded micros, and I'd bet the VS-700 does too). Guessing further, I'd bet some of the 'mystery connectors' on the back of the VS-700 --- will turn out to be designed to interface directly with a PC, when the VS-700 is unbundled sometime down the road.

Look, if you really think their marketing approach is nuts -- apply for that Product Manager opening.

Personally, I think the product seems pretty well-conceived, leverages the strengths of both Cakewalk and Roland, and would make for a pretty nice small-room facility. The "VS" product line seems to have plenty of room to grow - up, down and sideways. The bundled approach (to me) seems likely to increase the chances of a smooth product launch. The biggest drawback, probably, is that it will tick off existing Sonar users who already have nice audio interfaces, and/or don't want the built-in Fantom. (That drawback will go away after the control surface is unbundled, assuming I'm right.)

Again: This is a pretty ambitious product. Getting everything to work smoothly is hard enough without having to deal with differences between different sound cards, driver versions, outboard hardware, etc. etc. Cakewalk and Roland surely want the 'out of box' experience to be as trouble-free as possible. Using a bundled approach will increase the odds that all will go well during the initial launch. Frankly, they're also better off supporting a smaller number of initial customers that have each spent more on the product - and are therefore more committed to making their $$ purchase work. Once they're ramped up, and have a lot of field experience under their belts, they can broaden their focus. Give them time.

Just my 2 bits,
Jim

Firewire is gonna die in a couple years.
Apples new macbook pro just announced has no firewire port now.

@ musicman100 - My SI24 is still earning a living as a control surface for Sonar 8, the RPC is installed though only to provide access to the SI24 via its midi channel using the original Sonar3 driver. The SI is not so successful as an ACT controller though.

@ Jim Wright

<snip>Not unless the Fantom has a heck of a lot more knobs, dials and faders than I'm guessing it does.... <snip>

It has a whole truckload http://www.roland.com/products/com/Fantom-G8/images/top_L.jpg (best I could find sorry)
Edited highlights 8 faders, 16 velocity & aftertouch pads, transport section including jog wheel & a whole bunch of function buttons, all of which are multi function (eg the 16 pads have , I believe, 16 functions assignable) due to the small form factor. Plus all the normal Roland synth gizmos like D Beam, pitch bend, VLink etc

Dont forget this is a box that was designed to be a synth, sampler, sequencer (124 tracks inc 24 audio) and (limited) audio interface with nothing added except a power point & headphones/speakers.

To counter my own position the USB connector on the VS surface looks more like a connect it to a computer style, rather than plug in a mouse style so you may be right about it being unbundleable.

Jim

I know I made it sound like it was one bloke with a band saw, a bent phillips head & some gaffer tape but I was over simplifying.

I thought ACT was only one way & all the two way stuff (eg motorised faders, scribble strips etc) - the tight integration - was handled by the driver plugins. That impression was reinforced by Brandon pointing at a small section at top left of the VS surface & referring to ACT & the VS site showing a picture of that same section labelled 'channel strip & ACT' or similar

ORIGINAL: ducatibruce2

Jim

I know I made it sound like it was one bloke with a band saw, a bent phillips head & some gaffer tape but I was over simplifying.

I thought ACT was only one way & all the two way stuff (eg motorised faders, scribble strips etc) - the tight integration - was handled by the driver plugins. That impression was reinforced by Brandon pointing at a small section at top left of the VS surface & referring to ACT & the VS site showing a picture of that same section labelled 'channel strip & ACT' or similar

>> one bloke with a band saw .... & some gaffers tape...
No worries; I knew what you meant. Gaffers tape can work wonders; I remember an airline flight recently where the flight was delayed due to a 'tray table malfunction', and the maintenance guys swarmed over the tray table mechanism with with gaffers tape, 3 rows ahead of me. We did get cleared for takeoff eventually....... My dad tells a story about doing geological survey work in the Alaskan outback, in the '50s; the small plane that was going to fly him out suffered a broken wooden propeller; they used duct tape to hold the bits together and then flew _very slowly_ back to civilization (such as it was...).

>> I thought ACT was only one way ///
Normally it is. I seem to recall that ACT parameter feedback did appear on the LCDs at the top of the control surface (which, if true, would be a nice enhancement over how ACT works in a standard Sonar 6/7/8 installation).

>> ... all the two way stuff (eg motorised faders, scribble strips etc) - the tight integration - was handled by the driver plugins
It would be pretty hard to do that kind of stuff using a driver in the host PC that is directly controlling fader motors. There are tight servo feedback loops involved in motor control, for one thing. It would make more sense (putting on my design hat) to put some cheap 8-bit micros right in the control surface, to handle faders, servomotors, buttons, LCDs, T-bar, etc. -- and then control them at a high level from the host plugin.

- Jim

ORIGINAL: UnderTow


I don't see anything that can be achieved by the T-bar that can not be achieved by a joystick. A joystick can achieve at least twice as much. Four joysticks at least 8 times as much. One nice use of the joystick, besides surround panning, is assigning two or more synth controls to the X and Y axis. For instance filter cutoff and resonance.

UnderTow

why not a USB port and have the devices OS support arbitrary Joysticks / control devices?

In fact, isn't that capability already in there with the PC / Sonar and ACT?

what they need to do after this, if they really can't split it out, and IF they want to really go after the PT crowd is roll out a control surface only based on the already existing REAC platform.

http://www.rssamerica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=257

here is your 24 faders system, already made by roland with sonar LE. they need to map the details into it for sonar, have motorized faders etc

drop it in around 5K and undercut the C24 and PT crowd

if they drop a control surface like this one, fully mapped for sonar they will clean up

I got a look at the real thing on the 23rd when Seth Perlstein was here in Vegas with the Cakewalk Music Production tour.
Very nice unit. The hookup possibilities are quite good. Definitely want-gotta get one.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2008/10/03/aes08sf-exclusive-cakewalk-goes-hard-in-a-big-way/

Interesting.... I wouldn't buy one but someone else might. My set up seems to get it all done just fine.

I am building a copy of blackbird studio 13. The V 700 will be the turnkey. People are in line waiting for a chance to record. I want to purchase one as soon as possible.

roc, you forgot the MV-30 music production system. This was a complete MIDI synth and sequencer in a single box with faders to allow you to automate the mix etc etc. (i.e a control surface built in). No audio recording, though, just MIDI.

I had one for many years and loved it. In a way, this is the ultimate successor to that machine, thinking about it.....