VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk?

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JonD
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2016/08/22 10:26:34 (permalink)

VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk?

Steinberg's announcement:
http://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/vst-plugin-loading-limitation-on-windows-3852.html
 
Presonus' article:
http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/articles/210757986-Problem-with-songs-refusing-to-add-plug-ins-in-Studio-One-on-Windows
 
Given CW's close relationship with Microsoft, I have a feeling this "flaw" may be old news to Noel and the gang, but I think it might be interesting to hear their thoughts on this.

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    dcumpian
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 13:41:38 (permalink)
    I wonder what the limit would be? DLL loading limit? In any case, I've never run into this using Sonar.
     
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    Dan

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    #2
    microapp
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 14:06:38 (permalink)
    Since this is a C++ thing, it has always been there.
    In either link, the actual number of VSTs allowed was not mentioned.
    I have seen tables for Cubase on the DawBench site which list hundreds of VST compressors for some of the higher end CPUs. (DawBench adds compressors to a project until dropouts occur.) Certainly many more VSTS than I have ever used in one project.
     
    It may be that until recently, CPU power was the limiting factor and the C++ VST limit was not achievable.
    Unless there are other factors (yet undiscovered) which limit VSTs to a ridiculously low number, I consider this a non-issue... for me anyway.

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    #3
    Anderton
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 14:10:54 (permalink)
    microapp
    I consider this a non-issue... for me anyway.



    You mean you don't feel it's necessary to have 1,431 plug-ins on every track?!?
     
    Maybe this is just Microsoft's gentle way of saying "Dammit, get the sound right at the source so you don't need to use so many plug-ins "

    "The Second Big Book of SONAR Tips" is now available at Reverb.com
    #4
    slartabartfast
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 15:42:02 (permalink)
    Anderton
     
    You mean you don't feel it's necessary to have 1,431 plug-ins on every track?!?
     
    Maybe this is just Microsoft's gentle way of saying "Dammit, get the sound right at the source so you don't need to use so many plug-ins "



    Or maybe MS just does not understand the mania for audio under Windows, and cannot imagine anyone doing more than listening to Spotify on their PC. I refer you to the limit on MIDI connections and the failure to manage a cleanup system to free up ghost connections that led many musicians to think their computers were broken, about  which you have written. Microsoft has seldom been accused of over-provisioning Windows with features for the great masses of the prosumer audio marketplace, and I doubt that is because they intend to enforce discipline on those of us who have never learned to freeze a track.  
     
    http://www.harmonycentral...dows-midi-port-problem
    #5
    pwalpwal
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 16:25:14 (permalink)
    microapp
    Since this is a C++ thing, it has always been there.
    In either link, the actual number of VSTs allowed was not mentioned.
    I have seen tables for Cubase on the DawBench site which list hundreds of VST compressors for some of the higher end CPUs. (DawBench adds compressors to a project until dropouts occur.) Certainly many more VSTS than I have ever used in one project.
     
    It may be that until recently, CPU power was the limiting factor and the C++ VST limit was not achievable.
    Unless there are other factors (yet undiscovered) which limit VSTs to a ridiculously low number, I consider this a non-issue... for me anyway.


    seems like its a unique dlls limit https://sdk.steinberg.net/viewtopic.php?t=38

    just a sec

    #6
    microapp
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 16:28:20 (permalink)
    I can't bash Microsoft for 'designing for the masses' and then say it is OK for Cakewalk to do the same. It is a business reality and not necessarily a chosen philosophy for either company.
    The problem with the VST limit is that it is a C++ thing. C++ is not the ideal programming language for an OS. It is a major reason for so many security issues. Again a business decision.
    Actually, I have always been surprised that Windows works as well as it does.

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    #7
    BobF
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 16:30:09 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    Anderton
     
    You mean you don't feel it's necessary to have 1,431 plug-ins on every track?!?
     
    Maybe this is just Microsoft's gentle way of saying "Dammit, get the sound right at the source so you don't need to use so many plug-ins "



    Or maybe MS just does not understand the mania for audio under Windows, and cannot imagine anyone doing more than listening to Spotify on their PC. I refer you to the limit on MIDI connections and the failure to manage a cleanup system to free up ghost connections that led many musicians to think their computers were broken, about  which you have written. Microsoft has seldom been accused of over-provisioning Windows with features for the great masses of the prosumer audio marketplace, and I doubt that is because they intend to enforce discipline on those of us who have never learned to freeze a track.  
     
    http://www.harmonycentral...dows-midi-port-problem




    What a great article!  After reading that article I was able to solve MIDI weirdness a couple of times.
     
    I don't know about the practical impact of this specific topic, but I do wish MS would focus a little more on prosumer audio under the hood.
     
     

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    #8
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 16:31:06 (permalink)
    I wonder if this affects Waves the same way since their plugins run in their own shell. If all of those count together as "one" unique DLL I'll definitely never run into issues.
    post edited by Sanderxpander - 2016/08/22 18:06:48
    #9
    Anderton
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 16:53:54 (permalink)
    BobF
    I don't know about the practical impact of this specific topic

     
    Well, same here. If it's always been around, it seems strange people are just picking up on it now. I wonder if this affects ProChannel modules as well...probably?
     
    but I do wish MS would focus a little more on prosumer audio under the hood.

     
    Apple made a giant leap with Core Audio and aggregation, but I haven't seen a lot since then either. Remember, the only reason we have Core Audio and such was because audio and MIDI was a mess, to the point where Apple was reliant on Opcode to make things work for music...so the short form is they hired the people from Opcode who could make the same improvements as part of the OS. Similarly, Windows is reliant on Steinberg's ASIO to get things right for audio. 
     
    The reality is the prosumer music industry is an infinitesimally small part of either company's user base. The two computers that really did try to appeal to prosumer music production, Atari and Amiga, are no longer with us. I'm not saying that's cause and effect but I'm not saying it isn't, either...
     
    However, I will give props to Microsoft for what they did improve in Windows 10. They made MIDI multi-client, may have fixed the MIDI port problem (I haven't encountered it yet with W10), improved the audio stack, made gapless playback for data-compressed files, and hitched their wagons to FLAC instead of lossy compression. I've talked with people internal to Microsoft and their roadmap does include having Windows audio eventually (the key word) perform as well as or better than ASIO.
     
    Unfortunately out of the 1.5 billion people using the Windows operating system, most are running spreadsheets, word processors, and surfing the net...not creating multitrack music or video productions in their homes.
     

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    PhilW
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 18:30:34 (permalink)
    The issue seems to be that many C++ plug-in developers statically link to the C Runtime, and this is the source of the limitation. I assume from this that plug-in developers tend to statically link to the C Runtime (which embeds it in the plugin) rather than depend on installing a version of the Runtime on the client system and dynamically linking to it (and of course needing to redistribute it to client systems).  Plugins that have an installation package can include a C Runtime, but for developers that just ship a Dll it's obviously easier to have just the Dll without any other dependencies or instructions to find a C runtime.
     
    The C runtime has often been a pain to install (Microsoft's issue) and the response by many developers has been to statically link (the developer's problem) to the runtime rather than deal with getting the runtime installed on client systems.
     
    (I wrote a book on this in another life, seems an age ago now, but it's still on Amazon, lol)
    #11
    John
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 19:14:37 (permalink)
    I don't know about any VST limit. But I do want the CPU that can run with so many VSTs it exhausts the number that can be loaded. That is some CPU! 

    Best
    John
    #12
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 20:30:01 (permalink)
    Quote from Craig Anderton's post above:  "Well, same here. If it's always been around, it seems strange people are just picking up on it now. I wonder if this affects ProChannel modules as well...probably?"
     
    I am not sure if it does effect ProChannel, actually - I thought Sonar had been doing installation of C++ run time libraries since X2a, and likely dynamically linking to those modules, as it wouldn't run without the Windows 7 Service Pack 1's included C++ run time libraries.
     
    If Cakewalk development DID specifically, and properly, choose the dynamic linking path for those modules, and it DID bypass the static limitation, then I'd have to say WELL DONE, Cakewalk.
     
    In any case, I have not heard of or seen any indication that Sonar's ProChannel components suffer from any limitation, so WAHOO!  (too be honest, I don't ever flood any projects with enough plugins to run into any limits that I am aware of.  If the Beatles could do it on 4-tracks, and sound good 40 years later, I think it likely more important to focus on the quality of the song.  And, even if you put Yoko Ono in the finest studio on this planet, with current technology, and all the plugins and outboard gear available, and the finest engineers, she would still sound like a cat snuggling a porcupine).
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    #13
    BobF
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/22 22:38:24 (permalink)
    ProChannel has one major limitation - You can only have one PCEQ display expanded at a time

    Bob  --
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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/23 00:06:55 (permalink)
    Its a really bad idea to statically link to the C Runtime library. Not only does it bloat the memory space with redundant copies of the runtime libraries it can also prevent efficient use of memory by circumventing caching. Additionally it prevents Microsoft from updating the runtime via service packs. i.e. if there is a bug or security flaw in the C runtimes it can't be fixed in the future unless the plugin or executable is built with the new runtimes. 
     
    Cakewalk has always dynamically linked to the runtimes (for SONAR as well as all our plugins) and we keep up to date with the latest compiler technology. This is why you always see the msvcrt installer included as part of the SONAR installer. While this has had its share of problems its a far better solution than vendors statically linking this in.
     
    BTW the limit due to this is not as extreme as it may seem. In SONAR you would have to have at least about 64 unique plugins that statically linked before you saw a problem, so pretty unlikely I would think. Also multiple instances of the same plugin do not count since the dll is only loaded once. We routinely see hundreds of plugins used in projects and most people tend to use similar plugins like eq's and compressors on tracks rather than different ones per track. In all the years that SONAR has been around I've never heard of a complaint that plugins don't load so it seems like a pretty small corner case not worth worrying about.
     
     
    post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2016/08/23 08:40:08

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    #15
    John
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    Re: VST Limit Reported by Other DAWs in Windows. What Say You, Cakewalk? 2016/08/23 00:29:07 (permalink)
    Nuts! I was going to use 65 plugins in my next project. Well I guess I'll have to forget about that one. 

    Best
    John
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