VST Organization Question (the Sequal)

Jim Roseberry

• Sonar's 32Bit VST plugins get installed to

            C:\Program Files (x86)\Cakewalk\VstPlugins
 

• Sonar's 64Bit VST plugins get installed to

            C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins
 

• Third-party 32Bit VST plugins get installed to

            C:\Program Files (x86)\VstPlugins
 

• Third-party 64Bit VST plugins get installed to

            C:\Program Files\VstPlugins
 
This keeps installs clean/organized... and offers total flexibility.
 

I originally resurrected an old thread on the pre-X1 Producer forum, but got no response ... probably because most folks hang out here now.  So, I'll re-ask the question here.
 
The question is whether anyone bothers to segregate effects VSTs from synths when doing doing something similar to the above.  I'm making my first foray  in the land of 64-bit Sonar and I'd really like to get this right from the start.  I didn't know what I was doing with 8.5 and the result was pretty chaotic.  From Jim's response above, there's no distinction between synths and effects, but maybe the discussion was only about effects.  Thanks in advance for any recommendations.




 

This is a good question dmbaer.

I just did a fresh install and was wondering about this myself. I only have 2 HDD's, so I was thinking the VST's would get installed on my BOOT drive and any associated samples would get installed on my SAMPLE drive. But some, like Session Drummer 3,  SI Bass, Strings etc ... didn't seem to allow me to do that.

You would think that the Sonar installer would give you the option to install samples in a different place if it detected more than a single HDD.

And another thing, are the samples for the 32bit and 64bit version of synths (for example Session Drummer) different? Since you can't opt to not install them do they need to be in two different places taking up twice as much space? Seems it would be better to install the software portion of it on your BOOT drive and the sample portion on your SAMPLE drive.

Luteman


I don't distinguish between synths and effects in the file system, only in plugin layouts, which is where I find it most useful.

Good point.
Fortunately, Sonar and other VST hosts seem to be able to distinguish between effects and synths, so you don't run into confusion.  I found this out by accident last week when I mistakenly downloaded a synth instead of the effect I wanted to audition.  I spent half an hour trying to figure out why it didn't show up in the effects list of the browser.  Once I spotted a mysterious new entry in the synth list of the browser, it finally became clear what was going on.

Without any interference from users cakewalk already distinguishes between FX and synths by virtue of the fact that you call a different menu or browser window for one or the other making it clear whether you're working with FX or instruments.

As far as SONAR is concerned it doesn't matter a hoot where you plugins are installed as long as it knows where to scan for them. One word to the unwise though is that plugins should be on the same drive as your OS and the SONAR program file. Samples on a drive of their own and projects on yet another. A 3 hard Disc drive system provides the greatest flexibility and performance. Of course drives with faster read times will also increase performance especially the drive for your for you OS, Progams and Plugins.
 
For our organizational purposes there are however a few conventions we can (should) adopt.
In each VST Plugin Folder (32 and 64 bit) I always have folders per manufacturer and all plugins for that manufacturer go in there. If there are multiple versions of different types then I sometimes even create subfolders. What happens then is that SONAR autmatically configures your FX and Synths according to that folder (or any other you create) automatically in the browser or insert Plugin menu's.

Most DAWS insist on their own location for plugins by default. Fortunately SONAR allows you to be very flexible in where you put plugins BUT there are some reasons behind the default locations.
Windows (x64) itself seperates 32 bit and 64 bit programs into different folders as follows.
64 bit programs by default go into C:\Program Files - while
32 bit programs by default go into C:\Program Files(x86)
I decided to stick with SONAR's default locations but I also understand that there are some weird things that happen because plugins themselves don't always conform to a standard of behavior let alone standard installation locations.
I've chosen to do the following. You can apply the principles but use a different folder structure if you prefer.
 
Depending on how many 3rd party plugins you might have and how co-operative they are you may find the following useful. If it doesn't apply to you feel free to ignore it or use only any bits useful to you.
Having both the 32 and 64 bit versions of SONAR on the same computer doesn't of itself cause any problems. Many of us run multiple version in both 32 and 64 bit without problem.
Problems can however occur when you tell SONAR to scan for VST plugins. when running 64 bit SONAR there may be 32 bit plugins that you want to run because a 64 bit version doesn't exist yet. That means having to scan the location where those 32 bit plugins are as well.
That's not a problem either except that when using 32 and 64 bit versions of SONAR you may want both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions of a particular plugin so each program can make use of it. The rub is that some plugins don't behave and you end up with both the 32 bit and 64 bit version being scanned by SONAR's VST Scanner and you have 2 of that plugin appear in each version of the Plugin manager ie the 32 bit and 64 bit Plugin manager. That's right; there is a Plugin manager in both the 32 and 64 bit installations of SONAR.
 
To get around all that I have my system setup as follows.
 
I have an additional folder just for 32 bit (x86) plugins for those where the manufacturer wants to always install both a 32 and 64 bit version. When it works properly then the 64 bit VST scanner doesn't load the 32 bit version but when it doesn't work properly it means I end up having 2 of the same plugin where the 32 bit one is also running through  Bitbridge. For those plugins only I use the 3rd folder. Working out which plugins don't cooperate has to be worked out by trial and error.
1. Program files\Cakewalk\Vst Plugins\Manufacturer\plugin
All 64 bit Plugins
2. Program files (x86)\Cakewalk\Vst Plugins\Manufacturer\plugin
All 32 bit plugins you want to run in x64 because no native 64bit version exists.
3. Program files (x86)\Cakewalk\VST Plugins(x86)\ Manufacturer\plugin
All 32 bit plugins for which you already have 64 bit versions and the VST scanner insists on installing the 32 bit version as well under bitbridge giving you 2 copies of the same plugin in SONAR's Plugin manager.
SONAR x64 scans 1 & 2
SONAR x86 scans 2 & 3
Apart from folder 3 the others are all default locations if you allow SONAR to just perform it's normal installation.
Most DAWS insist on their own location for plugins by default. Fortunately SONAR allows you to be very flexible in where you put plugins BUT there are some reasons behind the default locations.
Windows (x64) itself seperates 32 bit and 64 bit programs into different folders as follows.
64 bit programs by default go into C:\Program Files - while
32 bit programs by default go into C:\Program Files(x86)
I decided to stick with SONAR's default locations but I also understand that there are some weird things that happen because plugins themselves don't always conform to a standard of behavior let alone standard installation locations.
I've chosen to do the following. You can apply the principles but use a different folder structure if you prefer.
 
Depending on how many 3rd party plugins you might have and how co-operative they are you may find the following useful. If it doesn't apply to you feel free to ignore it or use only any bits useful to you.
Having both the 32 and 64 bit versions of SONAR on the same computer doesn't of itself cause any problems. Many of us run multiple version in both 32 and 64 bit without problem.
Problems can however occur when you tell SONAR to scan for VST plugins. when running 64 bit SONAR there may be 32 bit plugins that you want to run because a 64 bit version doesn't exist yet. That means having to scan the location where those 32 bit plugins are as well.
That's not a problem either except that when using 32 and 64 bit versions of SONAR you may want both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions of a particular plugin so each program can make use of it. The rub is that some plugins don't behave and you end up with both the 32 bit and 64 bit version being scanned by SONAR's VST Scanner and you have 2 of that plugin appear in each version of the Plugin manager ie the 32 bit and 64 bit Plugin manager. That's right; there is a Plugin manager in both the 32 and 64 bit installations of SONAR.
 
To get around all that I have my system setup as follows.
 
I have an additional folder just for 32 bit (x86) plugins for those where the manufacturer wants to always install both a 32 and 64 bit version. When it works properly then the 64 bit VST scanner doesn't load the 32 bit version but when it doesn't work properly it means I end up having 2 of the same plugin where the 32 bit one is also running through  Bitbridge. For those plugins only I use the 3rd folder. Working out which plugins don't cooperate has to be worked out by trial and error.
1. Program files\Cakewalk\Vst Plugins\Manufacturer\plugin
All 64 bit Plugins
2. Program files (x86)\Cakewalk\Vst Plugins\Manufacturer\plugin
All 32 bit plugins you want to run in x64 because no native 64bit version exists.
3. Program files (x86)\Cakewalk\VST Plugins(x86)\ Manufacturer\plugin
All 32 bit plugins for which you already have 64 bit versions and the VST scanner insists on installing the 32 bit version as well under bitbridge giving you 2 copies of the same plugin in SONAR's Plugin manager.
SONAR x64 scans 1 & 2
SONAR x86 scans 2 & 3
Apart from folder 3 the others are all default locations if you allow SONAR to just perform it's normal installation.

mudgel

For our organizational purposes there are however a few conventions we can (should) adopt.
. . .

Wow, mudgel.  Thanks for your very comprehensive response.  This information should be most helpful, even though I am optimistically going to be installing only 64-bit Sonar.  But I think I'll adopt your suggestions in any case, just to be on the safe side.

on win7, keep yr VSTs outside the Program Files hive, to avoid possible access/security issues

I don't usually audition plugs... I have simply allowed them to install by default on my new DAW. Many of them by default are creating their own folders which I like.  Many of the better FX & plugs will ask where you would prefer to install them, and they ask if you want them to create a unique folder for them in that location.... I choose those options and tell them where to install and yes, to make a new folder in that directory. 

These folders are, for the most part, installing either in Program Files, or in the Cakewalk directory and in the Plug in or VST folder. 

I can, if I don't like the location of default, move them... cut and paste into the Cake folders. 

BUT.... since this is a music machine only, I'm not being as picky as long as they are in their own folder on the C drive. 

The ones that gave me fits were the stand alone freebies that I was playing with on my first DAW.... but have long since left behind and even removed as I started buying decent synths and FX. 

I now have a very small stable of plugs and FX that I have installed on the newest DAW.... kind of the tried and true stuff that I can not live without. 


EDIT: if you didn't do the custom location install and as a result, have FX and VST's scattered about the drive.... you can still go to the FX and plugs folders in Cake..... create a new folder of each of the wayward children... go to their current location and cut and paste each one to it's new folder in Cake/plugins or VST's...  just be sure to go to the cakewalk plugin manager and tell cake where to find them  now. 

ok - here I go... 
 
I'm confused by this, sorry. Can I just move the existing plugin folders to new locations? That didn't seem to work out so well today. Attached is my PlugIns directory scan from within the Sonar X2, VST's menu. 
 
Below is the default directory installations for my 32-Bit (x86) and 64-Bit plug in installations. I'm contemplating attempting to re-organize these into two master folders. 
 
VST (32-Bit)
VST (64-Bit)
 
Some have suggested four master folders as follows: 
 
VST EFX 32
VST INST 32
 
VST EFX 64
VST INST 64

<laggy forum double post>