AdamGrossmanLG
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VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
Hello Everyone,
For a long time I've been using the free synth drum VST - "ERS Drums". I have always recorded in 44.1 / 16bit, but recently decided to move to 96000 / 24 bit and now the synth drum has some weird artifacts, especially after the bass drum is hit (I get a weird cracking sound).
The plugin still works great under 44.1 / 16 bit, but I was wondering if there is some sort of setting in Sonar to get legacy VST's like this one to sound better in higher sampling rate/bit rate projects.
Thank You!
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microapp
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/08 23:31:51
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Not sure oversampling would improve the ERS much. If it produces artifacts at native 96K, I would think it would do the same if oversampled.
Why not use SI-drums,Session Drummer 3 or Addictive Drums 2 ? They all come with Platinum.
From what I see ERS is a VST2.3 which is fairly ancient and does not use samples but instead synthesizes the sounds.
Is there a particular sound or kit piece in ERS that you cannot live without?
My advice is use AD2, it will sound unbelievably better.
What is the point of 96K/24 if you are using essentially a drum machine from the 80's or 90's?
There is much debate about 96K bitrate vs 44.1K or 48K. IMHO you will not get much from 96K. Be aware that 96K taxes your CPU 2x that of 48K and the audio files are 2x the size. Unless you have really good mics, pre's and a good room, forget 96K.
Record something at 96K and then 48K. Can you tell the difference ? If not stick with the lower bitrate.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/08 23:56:15
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microapp
Not sure oversampling would improve the ERS much. If it produces artifacts at native 96K, I would think it would do the same if oversampled.
Why not use SI-drums,Session Drummer 3 or Addictive Drums 2 ? They all come with Platinum.
From what I see ERS is a VST2.3 which is fairly ancient and does not use samples but instead synthesizes the sounds.
Is there a particular sound or kit piece in ERS that you cannot live without?
My advice is use AD2, it will sound unbelievably better.
What is the point of 96K/24 if you are using essentially a drum machine from the 80's or 90's?
There is much debate about 96K bitrate vs 44.1K or 48K. IMHO you will not get much from 96K. Be aware that 96K taxes your CPU 2x that of 48K and the audio files are 2x the size. Unless you have really good mics, pre's and a good room, forget 96K.
Record something at 96K and then 48K. Can you tell the difference ? If not stick with the lower bitrate.
Hi, thanks for the response. Actually, yes... the kick on the ERS drums are simply amazing. I love the other stuff too, but the kick, I can control so much and they sound so analog and synthy! I can't find a replacement yet for when I want a particular type of kick! Actually what I end up doing now is sampling from it in a 44.1/16 project and then loading it into Battery 4 as a sample! Just wish I could use it again in a 96000 / 24 bit project
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dcumpian
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 08:31:42
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/02/09 09:47:50
You could program you drum track(s), then when you are done, copy the midi to a new project, add the ERS to that project and bounce @ 44.1. Import the bounced audio into your 96 project and Sonar will upconvert the file with no artifacts.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 10:37:26
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dcumpian
You could program you drum track(s), then when you are done, copy the midi to a new project, add the ERS to that project and bounce @ 44.1. Import the bounced audio into your 96 project and Sonar will upconvert the file with no artifacts.
Regards,
Dan
this is a great idea I never thought of! yes! thank you!!!!
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Sanderxpander
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 14:25:57
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I would seriously consider just working at 44.1/24-bit or if you must 48/24.
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scook
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 14:30:16
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 15:33:23
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Sanderxpander
I would seriously consider just working at 44.1/24-bit or if you must 48/24.
I started working in 96000 because I read somewhere some plugins work best at that sampling rate. I could be totally wrong though. Something about the VST not having to downsample or something.
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scook
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 15:44:38
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Some do, some don't, some plug-ins don't work at all. Regardless, it will use more resources to run at 96K. FWIW, SONAR can run individual plug-ins at a different sample rate from the project, if desired.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/09 19:34:08
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scook
Some do, some don't, some plug-ins don't work at all. Regardless, it will use more resources to run at 96K. FWIW, SONAR can run individual plug-ins at a different sample rate from the project, if desired.
Oh yea? how can you tell Sonar to upsample a specific VST? Ive read so many places that if you are at 96,000 then you don't have to worry about VST FX possibly distorting the music.
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dcumpian
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 08:18:03
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SilverBlueMedallion
scook
Some do, some don't, some plug-ins don't work at all. Regardless, it will use more resources to run at 96K. FWIW, SONAR can run individual plug-ins at a different sample rate from the project, if desired.
Oh yea? how can you tell Sonar to upsample a specific VST?
Ive read so many places that if you are at 96,000 then you don't have to worry about VST FX possibly distorting the music.
Not sure I'd believe that one. I record at 24/96 for the mixing headroom it gives me. Some VST's do sound brighter at higher sample rates, but I've never heard about VST's distorting music with proper levels. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 12:06:19
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He's talking about foldback distortion I think, which can compromise high frequencies in some very specific situations. Ampsims and some particularly bright VSTis are prone to this, if I remember correctly from Craig Anderton's testing. I haven't personally had any problems but I believe there is a control bar icon somewhere on the right hand side (probably labeled "2x" or something) that enables upsampling.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 12:14:34
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Sanderxpander
He's talking about foldback distortion I think, which can compromise high frequencies in some very specific situations. Ampsims and some particularly bright VSTis are prone to this, if I remember correctly from Craig Anderton's testing. I haven't personally had any problems but I believe there is a control bar icon somewhere on the right hand side (probably labeled "2x" or something) that enables upsampling.
i thought upsampling is VST specific, is there an option in Cakewalk to auto up-sample?
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dcumpian
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 12:17:25
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Sanderxpander
He's talking about foldback distortion I think, which can compromise high frequencies in some very specific situations. Ampsims and some particularly bright VSTis are prone to this, if I remember correctly from Craig Anderton's testing. I haven't personally had any problems but I believe there is a control bar icon somewhere on the right hand side (probably labeled "2x" or something) that enables upsampling.
I remember reading that. It's likely why some VST's sound brighter to me at higher sampling rates. My understanding, and m y own experience, tells me that the difference is quite subtle, especially in a mix. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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stevec
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 21:39:46
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/02/10 21:45:36
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/10 21:46:06
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Sanderxpander
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 01:59:22
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Well if you have too much disk space and you want to fill it up quicker...?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 02:00:23
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Sanderxpander
Well if you have too much disk space and you want to fill it up quicker...?
im fine on disk space and my CPU can handle the 96 kHz, so why not - to ensure no foldover distortion ever happens?
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Sanderxpander
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 05:44:41
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If you ask me what I personally think I say it's unnecessary to record at 96KHz. But do whatever you feel like.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 06:01:47
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I'm with Sander on this one, from blind tests I cannot detect ANY difference between 44.1 & and any higher sampling rate, so as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no point.
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mettelus
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 06:21:44
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/02/11 06:36:35
I am personally holding out for 128/384K to finally have true audio... Unfortunately, my ears will probably be 8/10K by then, but I will refuse to admit that to anyone (unless they yell at me so I can hear what they are saying).
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pwalpwal
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 06:34:14
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Bristol_Jonesey
I'm with Sander on this one, from blind tests I cannot detect ANY difference between 44.1 & and any higher sampling rate, so as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no point.
the point is that any in-the-box processing will be more accurate
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Sanderxpander
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 06:50:25
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Which is why there's the upsampling feature which you can enable when you do actually hear a difference.
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dcumpian
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 08:25:48
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Bristol_Jonesey
I'm with Sander on this one, from blind tests I cannot detect ANY difference between 44.1 & and any higher sampling rate, so as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no point.
There is absolutely zero audible difference for individual tracks. There is, however, a noticeable difference in headroom when summing. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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microapp
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 08:56:27
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Dan,
Other than possibly a fraction of a db due to true peak issues, how does 96K give more headroom than 44.1K/48K?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 09:09:45
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Sanderxpander
If you ask me what I personally think I say it's unnecessary to record at 96KHz. But do whatever you feel like.
like I said, for sound quality - sure... humans cant tell the difference between 48 kHz and 96 kHz, i get the science there and AGREE.... that is NOT the reason I am recording at 96 kHz. Again, the reason I am is to ensure I don't ever get foldover distortion from certain VST FX and synths. Remember, this option to upsample any VST just came in the Foxboro update, so I guess now I could go back down to 48 kHz, but hey, my PC can handle it.
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microapp
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 09:24:00
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I am thinking of recording @192K then mastering down into 128K MP3. 
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 09:32:24
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microapp
I am thinking of recording @192K then mastering down into 128K MP3.
like I said, I am not recording at 96 kHz for the better audio quality - I know that is nonsense. I'm doing it for the OTHER reason (foldover distortion)
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dcumpian
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 11:25:01
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microapp
Dan,
Other than possibly a fraction of a db due to true peak issues, how does 96K give more headroom than 44.1K/48K?
Sorry, not sample rate. I talking bit depth here. The only reason I record at 96K is because my interface works better there than at 44.1K or 48K. The Presonus drivers were never very good for the Audiobox 44VSL, but they are somehow rock solid at 24/96. As a bonus, I get awesomely low latency. Bit depth is far more important than sample rate. Mixing at 16bit vs 24bit is very different. Everything sounds more transparent (to me). YMMV. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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microapp
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Re: VST Synth Sounds Better At 44.1/16 Problem
2016/02/11 11:47:50
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Dan,
Agreed, 24 vs 16 bits is a must for mix-down.
96K bitrate is a personal choice at least most of the time.
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