VSTi multiple inputs and outputs, and how Solo/Mute work

Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work.  
 
Here's the background:  I use many Kontakt 5 instances as VST instruments.   Each is loaded with up to 16 channels of Kontakt Instruments and Instrument Banks.   Each channel has an associated midi track.   The channel number in the midi track directs the events to the correct Kontakt channel.   
 
Now because of how Kontakt works, it frequently makes sense to group some channels together to make a unified 'sound':  if I want a violin section with changing articulations, that often means 4 midi tracks going to 4 kontakt channels -- but the result is all one unit, the "violins".   So those four channels get routed to only one Kontakt output, and then one Sonar "instrument track".  The next four kontakt channels, likewise, are the second violins, and they go to a second Sonar instrument track.     So -- 8  midi tracks, one Kontakt instance, 8 loaded kontakt channels, and TWO outputs and Sonar instrument tracks ... that way I can pan the second violins different from the first violins, for instance.   
 
Now here's the problem:  it would seem natural to solo the second violin Sonar instrument track, and get all the midi tracks that go to channels that output to the second violin instrument track.   But!!  it doesn't work that way.   If I click "solo" or "mute" or "unsolo" or "unmute", on that second VSTi output, then ALL the midi channels going to that Kontakt instance are solod or muted.      Also, if I solo or mute ONE single midi track from the 8, I get BOTH kontakt output channels/Sonar Instrument Tracks solod or muted ... including the one I don't want to hear.  
 
And last, an even bigger problem:   if I solo one of the outputs (Sonar Instrument tracks), ALL the midi tracks are solod, but none of the other outputs are solod ... so Sonar is telling me I'll hear both first and second violins, but it isn't true: I need to select the other output and solo it.    All told, the way it works means a large number of clicks with unintended consequences to get a certain group of midi tracks and their correct outputs solod or muted together.  
 

williamcopper
Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work. 

It is really neither.  To paraphrase Kylotan, the VSTi handles the routing of the MIDI channel to the audio channel and the VSTi does not expose its internal routing to Sonar.  It is possible to verify this by checking a MIDI track's Output list.  Are there Multiple outs for each Kontakt instance in the MIDI track's output list?
 
Since the routing occurs inside the VSTi, theoretically the VSTi should provide the Mute and Solo controls for its groups.
 
Just a suggestion:
If using the VSTi for Mute and Solo is not an option, then possibly consider setting up track control groups.  For example, create a group that contains all of the "Mute" track controls for the 1st Violin MIDI tracks and the 1st Violin Instrument track.  Then follow this by creating a group for all of the 1st Violin "Solo" track controls.  The group name and color are customizable in the Group Manager dialog.
 
From the SONAR Reference Guide:
Tip: You can quickly group identical controls in multiple tracks. To do so, select the desired tracks, then assign a
control to a group. SONAR automatically assigns the same control in all other selected tracks to the same group.
 
-- Ron

williamcopper
Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work.  
 
Here's the background:  I use many Kontakt 5 instances as VST instruments.   Each is loaded with up to 16 channels of Kontakt Instruments and Instrument Banks.   Each channel has an associated midi track.   The channel number in the midi track directs the events to the correct Kontakt channel.   
 
Now because of how Kontakt works, it frequently makes sense to group some channels together to make a unified 'sound':  if I want a violin section with changing articulations, that often means 4 midi tracks going to 4 kontakt channels -- but the result is all one unit, the "violins".   So those four channels get routed to only one Kontakt output, and then one Sonar "instrument track".  The next four kontakt channels, likewise, are the second violins, and they go to a second Sonar instrument track.     So -- 8  midi tracks, one Kontakt instance, 8 loaded kontakt channels, and TWO outputs and Sonar instrument tracks ... that way I can pan the second violins different from the first violins, for instance.   
 
Now here's the problem:  it would seem natural to solo the second violin Sonar instrument track, and get all the midi tracks that go to channels that output to the second violin instrument track.   But!!  it doesn't work that way.   If I click "solo" or "mute" or "unsolo" or "unmute", on that second VSTi output, then ALL the midi channels going to that Kontakt instance are solod or muted.      Also, if I solo or mute ONE single midi track from the 8, I get BOTH kontakt output channels/Sonar Instrument Tracks solod or muted ... including the one I don't want to hear.  
 
And last, an even bigger problem:   if I solo one of the outputs (Sonar Instrument tracks), ALL the midi tracks are solod, but none of the other outputs are solod ... so Sonar is telling me I'll hear both first and second violins, but it isn't true: I need to select the other output and solo it.    All told, the way it works means a large number of clicks with unintended consequences to get a certain group of midi tracks and their correct outputs solod or muted together.  
 

Our issues are different but we are both wanting "the same end result" I believe. I use Sonar Platinum for live play. My desire, which seems to be at the end of the rainbow, is to be able to construct a simple MIDI message which mutes or un-mutes a track (channel, strip, etc,etc). I've been unable to find any documentation allowing such. Should you resolve your issue, I think it may resolve mine as well. Should you come across any documentation regarding channel control by MIDI, please post.   

WilliamHenley
My desire, which seems to be at the end of the rainbow, is to be able to construct a simple MIDI message which mutes or un-mutes a track (channel, strip, etc,etc). I've been unable to find any documentation allowing such.

I don't want to hijack William's thread, but...
 
Since MIDI was originally developed to control hardware synths, and 'muting' channels/outputs is not something any hardware synth was ever designed to do (as far as I know), there's no standardized message for muting a synth output, much less muting a track in a DAW.
 
You can, however, set up MIDI remote control of buttons in SONAR, but the MIDI message has to come in from an external MIDI Input. So if you wanted the message to come from a track within SONAR, you'd have to route it out and back in via hardware loopback of virtual MIDI cable.
 
Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, I think it would probably be easiest to just set CC7 Volume to zero to silence the synth, either using MIDI automation or discrete Controller messages, or just automate the track mute (MIDI or Audio) directly.
 
What exactly are you wanting to accomplish?

I think some of this behaviour has changed slightly since this thread was first started, so bear that in mind.

Here is a link to a post I made some time ago, but it all still applies, that attempts to detail setting up and using multiple loaded instruments in a single instance of Kontakt, and getting the accompanying audio and midi track routing assignments correctly made.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3030484
 
I do what is covered in the above link LITERALLY every single day, and it works flawlessly for me.
 
One thing I would add is that if you set up a bunch of Kontakt instances, for perhaps an Orchestral Track Template, I would suggest you consider loading similar instruments into each instance of Kontakt, so that muting and unmuting occurs on groups of similar instruments.  So, maybe one instance of Kontakt would have 4-6 violin instruments loaded, or 4-6 brass instruments, etc......
 
Take a look at the above link, and please post back with any additional questions about what I tried to explain in it, and I will try to clarify better for you.
 
Bob Bone