mattplaysguitar
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V-Vocal Glitch/Bug is making it un-useable - ISSUE IS UNSOLVABLE but problem understood :)
I've used v-vocal for years. It has its artefacts. On any sibilant or breath sounds, that 'pitch correction' artefact shines through. But that's been ok as I've just edited those parts out and only put it on the section which needed a change. Until today. Working on a song for my album, comping and correcting my vocal takes. I have a clean take. Maxing at -6dB so no clipping. No bleed from the track. Dead dry recording, no reverb. Super clean. I try to shift a simple held note up 20 cents. V-vocal decides to make me sound like I'm singing in falsetto or introduces this weird clipping/chugging noise. Sounds like it's in time with it's internal sampling system it uses to make the pitch change or something. I've tried it in X1d and X2a. Bother exact same result. For demonstrational purposes, I have made three samples below. Original, slight shift to the correct note and big shift (to show how the 'sampling noise' changes with pitch change). https://soundcloud.com/mattlyonsmusic/v-vocal-sample-clipping And a screenshot of each change that was made in v-vocal:
post edited by mattplaysguitar - 2013/04/21 00:13:09
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BlixYZ
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 07:29:46
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i remember this happening once or twice. i cant remember how i got around it. imay selected a smaller, more precise region in vvocal.
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cclarry
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 08:01:57
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With X1(all) I used V-Vocal without issue... When I went to Win 8 with X2a, now, even with minor changes I get a LOT of clipping noise...even though the tracks are not even close to clipping... Consequently, I quit using it, it's old, antiquated, backwoods technology....and it hasn't gotten better, it's only gotten worse. There's a lot of great alternatives out there with far better technology... so using something that is "old & broken" is just not an option... I try to get tracks that are good enough on their own and don't need correction, so V-Vocal used to be nice just for a minor tweak here or there... There are other threads on this problem I know...my work around? I just don't use it...
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Guitarhacker
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 08:26:32
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My only point of reference is Melodyne Editor as I do not have V-V. I have encountered a few places where no matter what or how I tried to fix something it came out with "not quite acceptable" results. If it's possible simply record that one small part again. I have done this a time or two and the second punch in fix was either OK "as is" or I was able to use ME to fix it without the artifacts. Another option I use when ME won't fix something is a simply cut/paste replacement .... this works wonders when the issue is in a chorus where the phrase is repeated. If the "other" instance of the word or phrase is good..... hey, copy it out and use it in the glitchy part. That little trick has save my butt and a lot of time .... more than once. The bottom picture has a very abrupt change in that yellow line. I don't suspect that is a good thing. In ME pitch mode I can simply select a note area and double click it to put it dead on the pitch center. (It's also possible to grab multiple notes in a phrase, for example) That puts the note on the pitch..... but it still leaves the drift "as is". Switching to drift mode I can then correct the drift. At any point in this process I have the option to split the note so I can leave part of the correct out of the fix..... if I want to keep the initial drift up to a note for example but them have the rest of it stay dead to pitch. Let me ask this: Does V-V have a manual mode? In ME for example, I used to use the "autocorrect mode" which let it do it's thing. I was often having to UNDO some of what it thought it was supposed to do. I started using the manual correction mode. It takes longer, but I decide if, and by how much, a correction is done on a given note. The results are so much better when I'm making the decisions. There are also times when I want to leave a "not quite right" note in place. It does give a more natural feel to the track which can be desirable as long as it's not distracting. Looking at the photo's really isn;t helpful .... hearing a sample clip of the issue might be better.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 09:05:44
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BlixYZ i remember this happening once or twice. i cant remember how i got around it. imay selected a smaller, more precise region in vvocal. I'll have to try cutting it into a smaller section and see if that makes it happy. Forgot about that, it sometimes makes it happier I've found.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 09:07:52
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cclarry With X1(all) I used V-Vocal without issue... When I went to Win 8 with X2a, now, even with minor changes I get a LOT of clipping noise...even though the tracks are not even close to clipping... Consequently, I quit using it, it's old, antiquated, backwoods technology....and it hasn't gotten better, it's only gotten worse. There's a lot of great alternatives out there with far better technology... so using something that is "old & broken" is just not an option... I try to get tracks that are good enough on their own and don't need correction, so V-Vocal used to be nice just for a minor tweak here or there... There are other threads on this problem I know...my work around? I just don't use it... Ahhh I agree... They need to bring a new one out!!!!
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 09:19:01
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Guitarhacker My only point of reference is Melodyne Editor as I do not have V-V. I have encountered a few places where no matter what or how I tried to fix something it came out with "not quite acceptable" results. If it's possible simply record that one small part again. I have done this a time or two and the second punch in fix was either OK "as is" or I was able to use ME to fix it without the artifacts. Unfortunately I'm not able to re-record anything any more as I've moved houses and lost all my acoustic treatment. Anything I re-build won't sound the same and I'm also in a rainforest with lots of noisy birds around!!! Mixing only for now till I get the cash to build a proper studio! Another option I use when ME won't fix something is a simply cut/paste replacement .... this works wonders when the issue is in a chorus where the phrase is repeated. If the "other" instance of the word or phrase is good..... hey, copy it out and use it in the glitchy part. That little trick has save my butt and a lot of time .... more than once.
I do use that one a lot and often only sing my chorus parts once. Unfortunately I can't really do it with this one. On the plus side, the bits I'm trying to tweak are just backing doubles, but still won't work with the sound it's putting out... The bottom picture has a very abrupt change in that yellow line. I don't suspect that is a good thing.
You're 100% correct. That was purely there for the purpose of showing the end result. In practise, I would make that smooth (the second one has a hard jump too which is no good). I shifted that out of key purely to show how V-Vocal reacts. In ME pitch mode I can simply select a note area and double click it to put it dead on the pitch center. (It's also possible to grab multiple notes in a phrase, for example) That puts the note on the pitch..... but it still leaves the drift "as is". Switching to drift mode I can then correct the drift. At any point in this process I have the option to split the note so I can leave part of the correct out of the fix..... if I want to keep the initial drift up to a note for example but them have the rest of it stay dead to pitch. Let me ask this: Does V-V have a manual mode? In ME for example, I used to use the "autocorrect mode" which let it do it's thing. I was often having to UNDO some of what it thought it was supposed to do. I started using the manual correction mode. It takes longer, but I decide if, and by how much, a correction is done on a given note. The results are so much better when I'm making the decisions. There are also times when I want to leave a "not quite right" note in place. It does give a more natural feel to the track which can be desirable as long as it's not distracting. I NEVER use autocorrect and work 100% manual. I'm extremely fiddly with getting things sounding smooth and natural and I like to think I'm quite good at it. I regularly split section up to only correct one part of a note etc. I'm using all the tools in the book here ;) Looking at the photo's really isn;t helpful .... hearing a sample clip of the issue might be better. Check my original post again, I have a link to the sample clip posted right above the photos. It has been there all along ;)
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daveny5
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 09:48:17
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Be careful how you use the Formant Controls. That's a good way to wind up sounding like Cher....
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robert_e_bone
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 10:00:28
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Over time using V-Vocal, I found that for me, best results occur when not using the auto stuff, and just do things manually. The other thing for me is that I get the best results doing very small clips. It is certainly more a pain to do it that way, but I find it makes the processed section MUCH less goofy sounding. With the above, it does an OK job of fixing slight vocal flat/sharp problems, and I sometimes either add or remove vibrato, but again small clips produce better results. I hoper that helps - WAY kewl you have so many critters where you live - except for the saltwater crocs and snakes. Best - Bob Bone
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 23:00:56
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daveny5 Be careful how you use the Formant Controls. That's a good way to wind up sounding like Cher.... Well aware of that one thanks :) I rarely ever need to touch them as I'm only really ever shifting up to about 20 cents at most usually. In the rare case that I do I big shift, I might use it slightly to bring things back in line but it's rare. I fully clued up with how to use it.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/20 23:07:42
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robert_e_bone Over time using V-Vocal, I found that for me, best results occur when not using the auto stuff, and just do things manually. The other thing for me is that I get the best results doing very small clips. It is certainly more a pain to do it that way, but I find it makes the processed section MUCH less goofy sounding. With the above, it does an OK job of fixing slight vocal flat/sharp problems, and I sometimes either add or remove vibrato, but again small clips produce better results. I hoper that helps - WAY kewl you have so many critters where you live - except for the saltwater crocs and snakes. Best - Bob Bone Yeah, as I've said, I never use auto. I don't think I've even touched those controls. I'm perfectly happy to do the painstaking manual work. It's the only way to get a natural result. I sit back and just LISTEN to the singing and only bring up v-vocal if I hear something that's not right. I will then only process it in a small clip on that section ONLY. If it's for a doubled backing layer, however, I get a bit faster and rougher with my edits as it doesn't matter. The problem I have here is not how to use v-vocal. I've been using it confidently for years now. The issue is that it is glitching on me. I'm doing the most basic of basic manual edits and you can hear v-vocal cutting up the samples to make the pitch change. It has never done that to me before. This is a bug. It's not really a matter of audio quality of v-vocal, it's that it's not actually working as it's supposed to. Did you get a chance to listen to the clip I posted? You'll hear right away that it's not just v-vocal sounding 'auto-tuney'. It's actually glitching. https://soundcloud.com/ma...-vocal-sample-clipping Cheers Matt :)
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/21 00:11:00
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I think I'm just going to cut my losses. It looks like it's a case of my singing having too many overtones in it in this section (or something like that) and v-vocal is just getting confused. When singing this part, I only got about 2 good takes till my voice got a scratchy sound to it. I think some mucus was building up from the belting or something... That gives it a rough sound and takes away from the smoothness. The main LEAD part is smooth and v-vocal has no troubles with it. Behaves as I'd expect. The backing layers were recorded later on and my voice was on the way out a little. I'm pretty sure v-vocal just can't detect it clean enough because it's probably seeing it as not truly monophonic or something. A better quality algorithm would probably do the job fine. Guess I'll just need to work on my singing to get it smoother next time ;) So it doesn't look like it's a bug or anything that can be resolved too easily. V-vocal's algorithm just isn't up to this particular section I think.
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bitflipper
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/21 14:48:54
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Sounds to me like you're doing everything right, but sometimes there is just something about the audio that confuses V-V. Listening to your clip, the stuttering sounded like nothing I've heard out of V-V before. So I downloaded it to take a closer look. I thought at first it sounded like regularly-spaced dropouts, but that wasn't the case; rather, there is a beating oscillation superimposed on the audio. I loaded your sample into SONAR and created a V-Vocal clip from the original, unedited clip. Sure enough, I got exactly the same results as you, confirming that the problem lies within the clip itself, as opposed to some other issue with SONAR or your system. What you're hearing is a beat frequency whose pitch correlates to the amount of shift. It sounds as if there is a component that's not being shifted, causing it to beat against the shifted version. Also noted, and extremely bizarre, is that if the shift is larger (2+ semitones), then the remaining audio is pitched up even though it hadn't been edited at all. V-V seems to get stuck in a weird mode after the edit point. There is nothing obviously unusual about the original clip other than more 15KHz+ content than I usually see. On the theory that there might be some very high- or very low-frequency content that was perhaps beating against V-Vocal's 20Hz quantization frequency, I tried severely filtering the extremes. This had no effect. There is also a high-pitched buzz around 4.6KHz, but notching it out had no effect, either. I loaded it into Melodyne Studio. It, too, played back with artifacts, although they were somewhat less noticeable than under V-Vocal. As soon as I shifted the pitch in Melodyne, the sound got thin, but there was no beat frequency. Melodyne does a better job of figuring out the component frequencies than V-Vocal, so perhaps this supports my theory about some component not being shifted, while one of its significant harmonics is, leaving the two to beat together and produce the oscillations we're hearing. Bottom line is there's something amiss with that clip. I'd sure like to know what it is!
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/21 15:14:02
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Looking at the clip again, I now see that there is strong evidence of comb filtering, with notches in the spectrum at ~200Hz intervals. That's probably why the clip sounds kind of hollow. Whether it's relevant to the problem, I don't know. It does suggest that you need some acoustical absorption around your microphone, though. Here's a spectrograph of your clip, a textbook example of comb filtering:
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/21 15:36:16
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Here's the buzzy part, with a close-up of the clicks:
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/22 04:17:00
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There is one more thing you can try Matt. Copy the raw, clean, un-v-vocalled clip to a blank project. Do your V-vocal edits in there, bounce it down (if it's ok of course) then copy it back to your original project. This has helped me overcome some of VV's quirkyness in the past.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/22 07:22:36
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Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for that, bit! I was hoping you would have a look at this post being the v-vocal guru. Vox was recorded through my Rode K2 set to cardiod (though this is an infinitely variable polar selector switch, remember - a perfect cardiod is next to impossible as it'll probably have an omni or fig 8 element to it to some degree). I recorded it in this room (with the 'door' closed): I wouldn't have expected any comb filtering to occur in this as it was pretty dead, but it did have a hard tile floor and of course couldn't do a lot for the lower frequencies. Not sure. My gut feeling it was just my voice not being super clear and putting out a second harmonic with my 'rough' voice kicking in a little due to strain of over singing a little. I'm glad to hear you tried on melodyne and it didn't quite play happy either. I was very curious about that. I was considering looking for some free correctors to just fix this one issue and use v-vocal for everything else as it tends to work well enough. But I'm not sure if I'll bother now that I hear melodyne couldn't quite pull it off either. The beating makes sense. I didn't think of that being the cause but you might be onto something there. As for the audio getting stuck in that weird high mode even though it's not being shifted, I've had that happen to me once before. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=624285 If you listen to the song Broken Angel at 3:12 you'll hear a second harmony in falsetto singing an octave above the lead. I never sung that part in falsetto. The was v-vocal being weird, but I actually really like it at the time so I left it! The song has since been re-recorded for the album though so that version will be gone. Your second image appears to be broken so I'm not sure what you were referring to there.. Cheers, Matt
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/22 07:25:16
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Bristol_Jonesey There is one more thing you can try Matt. Copy the raw, clean, un-v-vocalled clip to a blank project. Do your V-vocal edits in there, bounce it down (if it's ok of course) then copy it back to your original project. This has helped me overcome some of VV's quirkyness in the past. Thanks man, I haven't actually tried this though I don't like my chances as it didn't work on bit's computer either.. I will give it a go just in case. You never know with some of these things! Considering that it is a harmony/double part so not critical, I might try some LPF and HPF and see if it behaves any differently with them bounced on the clip first.
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bitflipper
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/22 14:03:52
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I like your vocal booth, Matt. Necessity is the mother of invention. It may sound very dead in there, but it's because the thin absorbers are sucking up mostly high frequencies, making it sound dead but actually having very little effect on lower frequencies. Below 500Hz you need to have LOTS of absorption to make a difference. I suspect your biggest problem may be the close proximity to the wall. Think about ways to maybe set up the booth further from the wall, or perhaps re-orienting things so that you're facing the wall when you sing (so that the wall's in the dead zone of your cardiod mic).
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Danny Danzi
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/22 22:08:47
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Matt, lol....I don't mean to laugh as I know this is no laughing matter. But that artifact totally cracked me up! To compensate for my laughter, I'll gladly try to fix this track for you. :) Split the section you want fixed, hi-lite it and then export it as a broadcast wave in the bit and sample you recorded at without any dither. Send it to dannydanzi at dannydanzi dot com and I'll take care of it per your instructions on where you want it altered. I've used VV billions of times for clients and have never run into the issue you're running into. So if you need me, just send it and I'll email you back with a broadcast wave of that section fixed without artifacts. :) -Danny
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/24 04:30:45
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bitflipper I like your vocal booth, Matt. Necessity is the mother of invention. It may sound very dead in there, but it's because the thin absorbers are sucking up mostly high frequencies, making it sound dead but actually having very little effect on lower frequencies. Below 500Hz you need to have LOTS of absorption to make a difference. I suspect your biggest problem may be the close proximity to the wall. Think about ways to maybe set up the booth further from the wall, or perhaps re-orienting things so that you're facing the wall when you sing (so that the wall's in the dead zone of your cardiod mic). Oh yeah, well aware of the low frequency reverb I'll get. I actually intentionally had a few reflective surfaces inside the booth to help stop it sounding so boxy and give it a more of a neutral sound as much as possible. As for the comb filtering, maybe that's just it? Unless v-vocal was doing something else weird... I've done correction on 6 songs (this is number 7) and all were recorded with either my K2 or SM58 in EXACTLY the same spot with EXACTLY the same vocal booth. Nothing different. This is the only recording this is acting up, hence why I think it's just something in my voice being screwy... Thanks for the response.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:V-Vocal has become un-usable due to useless quality of sound
2013/04/24 04:36:37
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Danny Danzi Matt, lol....I don't mean to laugh as I know this is no laughing matter. But that artifact totally cracked me up! To compensate for my laughter, I'll gladly try to fix this track for you. :) Split the section you want fixed, hi-lite it and then export it as a broadcast wave in the bit and sample you recorded at without any dither. Send it to dannydanzi at dannydanzi dot com and I'll take care of it per your instructions on where you want it altered. I've used VV billions of times for clients and have never run into the issue you're running into. So if you need me, just send it and I'll email you back with a broadcast wave of that section fixed without artifacts. :) -Danny Haha, feel free to laugh away!! I've used VV maybe thousands of times (not quite billions :P) and this is also my first! I've had my issues but always found a workaround. Usually it was VV just being buggy. I can re-bounce or cut the clip down and then things work. Not the case with this one it seems... Bitflipper actually already had a go and he got the exact same issue! My clip (though only mp3) is downloadable from SoundCloud if you want to give that a 'test run' to see if you can find a solution.. I'm all out of ideas!
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