WeStudioS
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 141
- Joined: 2008/08/06 19:26:33
- Status: offline
V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
Anyone else get a "phasing" quality when they import a vocal track to V-Vocal? When I do that it sounds like I've recorded the take with two seperate mics and one of them is moving. I'm not sure if I'm being clear but it is not on the track before I import to V-Vocal and it gets worse if I actually do some tuning. And yes my vocals desparately need V-Vocal
post edited by WeStudioS - 2009/09/12 08:27:08
Sonar X3 Producer, Win 7 64
|
howardk
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14
- Joined: 2009/09/02 21:16:51
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 08:32:20
(permalink)
|
WeStudioS
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 141
- Joined: 2008/08/06 19:26:33
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 08:36:49
(permalink)
Yes Does that make a difference?
Sonar X3 Producer, Win 7 64
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 12:14:46
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
That "phasing" effect is exactly that: comb filtering causing phase cancellations. Long story short: your vocal track isn't clean enough and it's confusing V-Vocal. There are lots of factors that could be relevant. Your performance might be overly breathy. There may be distortion at the preamp. You may have excessive headphone bleed. Your mic gain might be too high. Sometimes, phase issues occur simply due to singing too close to a reflective surface like a window, and V-V will exaggerate any phase problems already in the track. Here's how to avoid that hollow, metallic "phasey" effect: - sing as far back from the mic as is practical - keep the mic gain as low as is practical - keep the headphone volume as low as is practical (you can train yourself to monitor at lower volumes) - use headphones with good isolation (most cheap cans are terribly leaky; the Sennheiser HD280Pro is a standard because it's cheap and has good isolation) - do not sing with one can unless you turn the volume down in the unused side or have a one-sided headphone meant for that technique - for some singers, a dynamic mic may yield better results than an LDC - use acoustical absorption in the singing area (put some 703 around the mic if you can't have an actual vocal booth) - always record vocals in mono - never record effects such as reverb, echo or chorus (add them afterward, and only after pitch correction) - and the #1 tip: never let V-V or any other pitch-correction software do the correction automatically. Correct every phrase by hand, one at a time, and don't bother correcting any portion that's breathy or non-pitched (e.g. shouts, grunts, moans and such). And don't correct ANYTHING that doesn't really need it! Ignore the visual display -- LISTEN to the phrase; does it SOUND off-pitch? Just because the little line isn't precisely on the note does NOT mean the word or phrase needs correction!
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
feedback50
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 564
- Joined: 2004/05/31 12:08:15
- Location: Oregon, USA
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 12:31:51
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
One other possibility. Normally you would bounce each clip after vvocal has been adjusted. If you hear phasing after the bounce, check to make sure the original clip is muted (normally this is done automatically). Also be sure all other vocal clips are muted while auditioning vvocal clips. Normally if you highlight a clip then press shift-V on the keyboard the clip opens in vvocal and the original is muted.
|
WeStudioS
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 141
- Joined: 2008/08/06 19:26:33
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 17:05:05
(permalink)
Sometimes, phase issues occur simply due to singing too close to a reflective surface like a window, and V-V will exaggerate any phase problems already in the track. As a matter of fact there is a window right at vocal height. Also I have not yet acoustically treated the room which has some other refective surfaces mixed with some dead surfaces. I mostly dealt with it by keeping in tight to the mic get avoid as much of the room sound as possible. In the original track you can still hear the room some to hardly at all but if V-Vocal exaggerates this ( and I assume you are correct on this) then I have my solution. Acoustically treat the room (in the planning stages for a while now) so I can avoid the origional phasing and allow me to back off the mic for a cleaner "take" Everything else you guys have brought up I've got right. Good guess feedback50 that would definitely cause phasing. I bounce to a new track and mute the original. Actually it's kinda nice to get some intelligent responses instead of the old standby "did you delete the audio.ini file" lol BitFlipper What is 703? Thanks a bunch fellow cakies
Sonar X3 Producer, Win 7 64
|
krizrox
Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4046
- Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
- Location: Elgin, IL
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 17:42:31
(permalink)
Yes I've seen this problem too. And it's been reported by other people over the years. VV didn't used to do that. At least I don't remember this problem in the first release (whenever that was). It crept in at some point. Many of us have simply stopped using VV because of this and it's general lack of functionality and sound quality compared to Auto-tune and Melodyne. You can try bitflipper's suggestions but I have a funny feeling you might eventually see the problem again. I have done side-side comparisons between VV and Auto-tune and AT is much more forgiving of background noise than VV. I assume Melodyne is too. AT just plain sounds better. I assume Melodyne does too. VV was also causing some system crashing. I'm not sure that was ever addressed. Do youself a favor and just buy AT or Melodyne and be done with it. I think Antares allows you to test drive AT for a couple of weeks - fully functional. So that should give you an idea. Melodyne might also have a trial period. Both products require a dongle if I'm not mistaken. That might be a deal breaker for you. I never had a problem with the iLok. Good luck!
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
|
WeStudioS
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 141
- Joined: 2008/08/06 19:26:33
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 17:52:52
(permalink)
Thanks Krizrox I was wondering how V-V stood up to Antaries and Melodyne. The best decisions are made with a lot of good counsel. I'll see if deadening the room helps but good to know there are other options. I do hate dongle keys though. That was a dealbreaker with Cubase. Later dude
Sonar X3 Producer, Win 7 64
|
tfkeel
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 92
- Joined: 2005/06/19 16:00:19
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 18:19:09
(permalink)
I use another studio for final editing and mixing, typically. I don't own Melodyne but use it at the other studio. It is fabulous.... it has far fewer artifacts than either V-V or Antares (with V-V beating Antares, but maybe my Antares is older). Melodyne's user interface leaves a bit to be desired - but the notation display on it is great.... in V-V, when the pitches get high (like soprano range), the space between the pitch grids is hard to use..... hopefully, Cakewalk will allow a vertical stretch as well as the horizontal stretch in the next version. I typically use pitch correction like an earlier poster suggested... only when it's needed... I don't use automatic correction, and I manually adjust the spaces between pitches by drawing it in (V-V is good here) if pitch correction is needed in melismatics. Another earlier poster stated a problem which occurs for me (not too often, but statistically significant) where the previous (non-V-V) clip doesn't get muted. If the pitches were close in the original clip, and they were corrected anyway, and un-muted, a "phasing" sound could result.
Sonar 8.5 Producer Version 8.5.3.282 - Windows XP Home Edition w/all upgrades through SP3 - Windows Vista business SP2 - PreSonus FireBox interface - M-Audio UNO - Behringer UCA202 U-control - ADK ProAudio quad-core 3.2 Ghz overclocked, 8 Gb ram - been with Cakewalk since 3.0 in 1990 ( it was MIDI only...under MS/DOS - computer was 4 MHz :) ) http://www.keelsmusic.com
|
MatsonMusicBox
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
- Total Posts : 879
- Joined: 2008/07/09 10:56:31
- Location: Hanover, PA
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 18:25:03
(permalink)
WeStudioS Anyone else get a "phasing" quality when they import a vocal track to V-Vocal? When I do that it sounds like I've recorded the take with two seperate mics and one of them is moving. I'm not sure if I'm being clear but it is not on the track before I import to V-Vocal and it gets worse if I actually do some tuning. And yes my vocals desparately need V-Vocal Yes - exactly why I switched to Melodyne and even now am in the process of redoing vocals "fixed" before I got it.
|
Tom Riggs
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1752
- Joined: 2003/11/08 22:47:26
- Location: Displaced Kansan living in Philippines
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 20:15:27
(permalink)
tfkeel I use another studio for final editing and mixing, typically. I don't own Melodyne but use it at the other studio. It is fabulous.... it has far fewer artifacts than either V-V or Antares (with V-V beating Antares, but maybe my Antares is older). Melodyne's user interface leaves a bit to be desired - but the notation display on it is great.... in V-V, when the pitches get high (like soprano range), the space between the pitch grids is hard to use..... hopefully, Cakewalk will allow a vertical stretch as well as the horizontal stretch in the next version. V-Vocal can do both a vertical and horizontal zoom currently. Is that what you mean by vertical stretch?
i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed My Music My YouTube
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/12 21:27:44
(permalink)
Regarding Melodyne: I bought Melodyne 3+ years ago out of frustration with V-Vocal's artifacts. This was before they offered a VST version, so it was a hassle transferring tracks into and back from Melodyne. Because of that inconvenience I'd often revert to V-Vocal for light touchups, just because it was quicker and easier. Over time, I came to understand V-V's limitations and quirks and started using it more and more. Eventually, I was able to consistently get acceptable results from V-V. Today, Melodyne gets dragged out for maybe 1 out of 10 projects while V-V is the daily workhorse. Also bear in mind that all pitch-correction packages require good clean tracks to work with, including Melodyne. All of them get confused by scratchy, breathy, noisy or effected vocals. All of them will exacerbate comb filtering that's already in the track. I'm still a Melodyne fan. I love being able to work on multiple tracks at once in a single window. Aligning double-tracked vox is easy, as is matching dynamics. But don't throw money at a problem until you've solved basic issues such as acoustical considerations and miking techniques. (OP: "703" refers to Owens-Corning rigid fiberglass, type 703. Similar products are referred to as "rock wool". A one-inch-thick sheet of 703 is all you need to cure comb filtering from a window.)
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
WeStudioS
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 141
- Joined: 2008/08/06 19:26:33
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/13 06:23:04
(permalink)
Rigid Fiberglass was exactly what I was going to use to treat the room with. Cool! some affirmation that I'm going in the right direction. It will also help with my heating bills {^_^} Oh no he used a smiley face. How lame! Later all
Sonar X3 Producer, Win 7 64
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/14 14:53:27
(permalink)
The tips provided by Bitflipper are spot on (as usual), here's a couple more: 1. Only ever work in short sections - a line, a verse, a chorus etc - don't try and do the whole thing in one pass 2. Keep the signal as clean as possible, free of bleed & background noises. 3. It's worth repeating - do your correction MANUALLY, a syllable at a time IF necessary. Hard work but worth the effort. 4. Don't try and shift a note by more than about a semitone - if the original performance is further out than that - re-record it. 5. Don't forget you can also us V/V to shift errant notes back into TIME as well as pitch - very useful when comping harmonies or backing vox.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
river
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 597
- Joined: 2004/02/06 14:37:35
- Location: Franklin, TN
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/14 22:56:16
(permalink)
Another Melodyne fan here. No flaming hoops to jump through to get artifact free results.
|
dbmusic
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1150
- Joined: 2005/07/04 12:52:46
- Location: Illinois
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/15 01:31:34
(permalink)
I think it is best to use these programs in a minimalistic way. The more you can narrow the focus of your tune correction, the better your results will be. Regards, DB
|
pscherer
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 49
- Joined: 2008/11/15 09:06:13
- Location: Chicago
- Status: offline
Re:V-Vocal Strange Phasing Sound
2009/09/16 16:20:59
(permalink)
Any vocal that has a reverb or other effect on it will cause V-Vocal to create this sound. Vocal tracks corrected with V-Vocal have to be effect-less
|