Helpful ReplyVariable Audio Recording Delay

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microapp
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/03 16:41:17 (permalink)
gwen
I just looked at the M-164UF downloads available and I see no firmware updates. Oh well.
 
Michael
 

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#31
microapp
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/03 16:56:01 (permalink)
gwen,
I just re-read this thread and you have not said much about your PC(s).
Could you describe the windows versions , processor chips, speeds, memory and disks you are using.
Disk access time is particularly important while recording.
In the device manager look at the ATA controller settings and make sure your HDD is using DMA ultra mode-whatever and NOT PIO mode.
 
Here is how to check that
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/turn-direct-memory-access-on-off?woldogcb=0#1TC=windows-7
 
Michael

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#32
microapp
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/03 17:03:00 (permalink)
Sorry for the rapid fire posts.
I am thinking about HDD again. Are you using anti-virus ?
Some AV's actually scan data to/from disk while it is written/read.
This can really degrade access times.
Disable anti-virus if it is running.
 
Michael

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#33
microapp
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/03 17:10:17 (permalink)
gwen,
I forgot you are testing just monitoring latency and not recording latency.
HDDs are probably not the issue. I went off on a tangent when I saw your screenshot.
Grabbing at straws here.
Still , it would be good if you could describe your PC.
 
Michael

Sonar Platinum, Cubase Pro 8.5, Reaper 5, Studio One 2
Melodyne Studio 4, Finale 2012
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Tascam FW-1884, Emu 0404USB, CMC-AI,Axiom 61
Yamaha HS-50's, Sony SA-W2500, Sennheiser RS170's, ATH-M50
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Jackson DK2-S(Sustainiac),Les Paul Custom
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#34
ptheisen
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 14:44:01 (permalink)
I'm not saying I'm an expert, but what you described in post 16 and especially post 29 about the latency gradually ramping up and then dropping off only to start the cycle over, perhaps after a dropout, sounds very much like what I experienced on a previous DAW machine, and when I measured the DPC latency, it showed that exact behavior.
 
I could be wrong, but since you've tried everything else, and still don't have a satisfactory explanation, you've got nothing to lose by checking into the DPC latency possibility. This time, I'll recommend a second utility, DPC Latency Checker from thesycon. This one graphs the DPC latency over time, so it is easy to see whatever pattern may exist. If it shows the cycle of varying DPC latency, use the other utility, LatencyMon, to identify the driver with the highest value. Then disable the corresponding device if it's not necessary, or look for an updated driver for that device that hopefully behaves better.
 
I hope you get your issue resolved soon, one way or another. Good luck!
#35
lifeismusic
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 14:56:01 (permalink)
Its kind of recording AND monitoring.  What I'm simulating is a musician playing back with a backing track, which is ending up noticably out of sync.  I could theoretically just manually adjust every single cut ever done, but gosh it will look unprofessional when I have to do it just to listen back to a track we just recorded.  If it wasnt variable, sonar has a setting for that.  I still don't really understand though, I would think sonar should normally adjust this sort of value by default for people due to an inevitable small bit of lag summed between playback and overdubbing.
 
 
My computer worked flawlessly two-three years ago, and with of all things an Alesis Multimix USB 2.0.  Here should be anything you're possibly curious about :)   There are many USB devices, but I have replicated the issue with only the Tascam, mouse and keyboard.  I'm still suspecting my USB for the moment.  It doesnt explain why my other computer is showing the latency in the CEntrance utility that it is, but I dont know if thats to be expected.  I should be installing sonar on another computer to attempt today or tomorrow morning.
 

 
    
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#36
brundlefly
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 16:42:44 (permalink)
Hi gwen,
 
IIRC, you said CEntrance was not showing that much variability. What is the range of round trip times measured by CEntrance in samples?
 
I'm curious what happens if you disable all record latency compensation on the Driver Settings page. I'd also like to see screenshots of both the Sync and Caching and Driver Settings pages. 

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#37
lifeismusic
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 17:19:09 (permalink)
Here are my current settings. 
 
imgur.com/MzxeT1M
 
imgur.com/LehhXhi
 
imgur.com/zVOTdtY
 
interestingly, cakewalk's minimum latency is the same (256 samples, 5.8sec) as the 'high' setting in the control panel.
(CEntrance prompts open the control panel, the latency dropdown is selected, then it shows up in CEntrance different latency's for each.  Medium works (4.35ms at 192 samples I think it was?) but low and lowest do not work.  They seem to work fine in fruity loops and all of my other programs though.  I'd be way curious what Tony gets as far as CEntrance and Sonar's detected latency minimums :)
#38
lifeismusic
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 17:29:51 (permalink)
*i've zero'd the latency compensation for the time being, since as long as I can get it CONSISTENT i will be able to operate just fine.  I would definitely prefer for it to work with low monitoring latency for midi stuff though...
 
#39
brundlefly
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 18:16:19 (permalink)
Okay that's very interesting. It appears you have SONAR set to use WDM driver mode. Otherwise you'd have an ASIO Panel button where you have a Wave Profiler button on the Driver Settings page.
 
So the first thing to do is to go the Playback and Recording page in Preferences > Audio, and change the driver mode to ASIO. Then see what SONAR reports for RTL vs. CEntrance (which only tests the ASIO driver, not WDM), and set the Manual Offset on the Sync and Caching page as the difference between what CEntrance measures and what SONAR reports as suggested previously. Then try your re-record test again.
 
 

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#40
tbosco
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 21:15:17 (permalink)
Gwen,   I don't have the CEntrance program, but I've still got my thinkin cap on.  Gonna be hard to come up with something these guys ^ haven't covered.
 
Try this just to rule it out-  Click the PDC button and the FX button (turn them off).  See if that improves anything.  (I don't think that suggestion has been made yet, has it?)    

Cheers!

Tony

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#41
lifeismusic
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/04 21:35:20 (permalink)
its working!!!!

driver settings:       imgur.com/dZxYeZ0
sync and caching:   imgur.com/ACh6u8P
repeatedly bounced back click track:  imgur.com/Pz2OA9N   ---- increasing in amplitude to the point of clipping and distortion, as it should be!
drum pad, played to metronome, bounced back with metronome and in perfect time:  imgur.com/HQpk0qe
 
thank you so much!!!  i have no.  freaking.  idea.  how I missed that.  I was trying everything I could before to get it so I could run youtube videos or external MP3 players while playing without messing up my sound, because sonar wouldnt share with anyyyything on WDM.  None of the other settings were working that day!    I guess it was some sort of fluke.  I guess the lesson I've learned is that even computer settings can be finicky and deserve twice-overs.
 
On the upside, I've learned lots of nice tricks.  Thank you for all the people that were so vigilant in helping me figure things out :)
 
I thought it was very odd that cakewalk wouldn't include some sort of roundtrip test and automatically account for this, but there it is.  automatically adjusting for the 661 sample latency :)
 
i'm so happy right now.  AHHHHHHH
 
^_^ thanks guys
 -gwen!
 
ps;  i am ay freaking oh kay now.  but if you're just more of a tinkering and figure-things-out-er than just wanting to help really bad type... CEntrance is getting about 46 more samples than sonar ;) 
#42
brundlefly
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Re: Variable Audio Recording Delay 2014/03/05 01:57:20 (permalink)
Cool. Glad you finally got there.   Figured something basic wasn't right. That 46-sample difference is what you want to enter in the Manual Offset field in Sync and Caching to compensate that extra bit of "hidden" latency that isn't being reported to SONAR by the driver. That's a pretty typical discrepancy, mostly attributable to A/D conversion time. Once you do that, your re-recorded tracks will align with the original to the sample.
 

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#43
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