Variances in amp sims system to system.

The guitar, the quality of input you are plugging into and perhaps the audio to digital converters themselves.
 
IME though none of these sims sound as good as they are presented right "out of the box". They need some tweaking.
 
The other thing is that many of the models are designed to respond to the input level like a real amp. So if you had a tube amp and you tossed a simple "gain" pedal in front of it or used a guitar with really high output pickups you are gonna work the tubes harder and get more bite/drive/whatever.
 
A perfect example is in GR5. One of the most useful "Components" in the suite is the "Gain" module. If you put that in front of the various amp models and turn it up you can see how the amps respond to the extra "virtual" input level.
 
The gain module doesn't actually add any real distortion or anything (you can play through it on it's own and it mostly just boosts the volume). It's just making those phoney baloney "tubes" light up and do their thing.
 
Also, of course, different pickups are going to give different tones. I never expect a good "blues" tone until I engage the single coils on my Pacifica (it has been modded with a "Hot Strat" config so it has a humbucker at bridge position that can turned into single coil with the push pots... and it has single coils in middle and neck positions).
 
Try adding some quick reverb to the sound too for blues or choose a "large" room for the cab IR stuff. That helps a lot for that style (and... well many styles to certain degrees).
 
Cheers.
 
Edit: and for the reverb thing set your reverb (if you can) to focus on the higher frequency spectrum instead of EVERYTHING. Reverb on the low end tends to muddy things up so you want the bottom quick and tight or completely dry and the room "echo" dancing around the higher frequencies.
 
This is just my own experience. I am, as always, just a student... not a hardcore pro.

Throwing Voxengo SPAN before and after an amp sim is a good way to monitor what is going on. Some sims go overboard with high end harmonics (I.e., way more definition than most amps would really provide) so a LPF somewhere between 4-7Khz can knock those down to more realistic levels. Can try different placements to find what works best for you.

The pre-sim SPAN is good to analyze your pickup itself. If it throws high-power harmonics, you can consider a LPF before the amp sim ever sees the signal (rather than rely on just the amp sim processing).

@beepster, I agree it is not a perfect sound. What I was trying to comment on is it didn't sound so bad when he first started. Mine setup sounds awful unless I do a lot of tweaking. I was hoping that I was just missing something.
 
I can make it better by putting an EQ pre-sim but I haven't been able to get rid of all the harshness yet. I don't like sims and yet I purchased another one. The Tripe Treadplate still sounds good.
 
@mettelus, SPAN is a good idea. I will try that. Bias Amp has an analyzer built into its EQ but the image I am seeing does not match what I am hearing. I will try SPAN. 
 
Also, when I EQ to get a better blues tone, the metal tones sound bad. I was hoping I can pre-condition the signal so each model would work OK and then I could tweak from there. But it seems like each model, other than the metal ones, will take custom EQ adjustments outside the sim. 
 

High pass and low pass make a huge difference too. I often struggle to find the "right" tone as well, but a HP/LP helps a ton. I will start the high pass around 80 to 120 hz to get rid of the low end crud and then low pass around 7500 to 8000 khz to get rid of the high end fizzies. This changes for each amp and preset, but I do it to some extent every time.

Yeah, until you try it you need an open mind. I never gave Craig's amps a try until I was in a hurry one day... guitar straight into the interface and put one in the FX bin. Much more versatile than I expected and simple layout like a true amp.

My current issue with sims is the unnecessary complexity of them. Simple and effective is highly preferred.

I would have to say the difference between his results and yours has more to do with pickup configuration than his tweaking. I have Bias desktop and a Telecaster and I can say, that is a pretty accurate representation of what a single coil guitar sounds with the blues presets without much tweaking. With my PRS with humbuckers, a Duncan Demon in bridge, totally different. Muddy and painfully bright . 
 
 
 

Amp sims get a lot of hate in my opinion, it's because they're not well understood and not set up properly in the first place.  Gain structure is the most important setting to get right, for me I either use a compressor before the amp sim, or the tube leveller pro channel effect.  Another option is a cheap tube pre-amp on the way into the box.  Then you've got to decide whether to EQ before or after sim or both.  I love Guitar Rig, although I'm still on 4, fiddle with the microphone type and the air setting, if your amp sim has this setting.  And again once inside the amp sim check your gain structure.  I also like pro channel's console emulator set to purple, which adds a bit of top end crunch, or lately I brought the Helios console EQ from Waves, and this is excellent for EQing the amp sim after you've finished setting up the sound.  What you need to do is investigate what sound your trying to emulate, then match those settings.  As an example, David Gilmour uses the Hi Watt amp, which has an equivalent in GR4, he also uses a smattering of compression before his signal goes into his amp.  From here it's not too hard to emulate his tone.
 
Ben  

Danny Danzi
 
 Hey, we're guitar players....we're supposed to be mental. 😊
 
-Danny

If nothing else, we are that!!

One of the best amp sims is also one of the easiest....S-Gear. There isn't a ton of amps and effects, but it delivers a good tone without alot of EQ and complicated tweaks. 15 day free trial.

clintmartin
 
 a FRFR rig?
 

?

clintmartin
@Danny. Do you use your Axefx live? If so...are you using a power amp and cab, or a FRFR rig?
 

Yeah Clint, I use it both in the studio and live. I have a regular AxeFxII in my live rig and recently got the AxFxII XL+. I'm probably going to flip flop them and use the XL+ live as it has options that are better for live, in a pinch, use as well as disaster prevention built in.
 
As for the FRFR stuff, nah...would you believe I didn't like it? And...I've never heard anyone using it that made me love their tone. You know how it goes...tone is a subjective thing. BUT....a lot of that stuff starts to lose the analog sound I feel we need in a live tone.
 
I personally like to run my Ax FX through my Greenback 25 watt Celestion cabs and prefer a top/slant cab due to the bottom having a little more "whoomf" than I would want. I have never gotten as many compliments running that configuration while using a Rocktron 300 watt, one space power amp and a Line 6 G 90 relay wireless. Tube power amps are not my cup of tea unless you can go super loud and your pre-amp front end is weak. I have a more modern type sound that has a good front end...so I don't need to crank up and saturate from output tubes. I do have two tube power amps that I've tried, but I prefer the Rocktron. Small, versatile, and it just works for me.
 
The tone is scary man. Those Fractal guys have a nice handle on what a 12AX7 sound is supposed to sound like. I don't even realize I'm not using my tube pre-amp or an all out tube amp. With each update the dude does to this thing, it gets better and better with realism that is just off the hook. BUT and this is a HUGE BUT....the wrong cab and you sound like digital distortion no matter what you do. When you use good cab IR's from people that know how to make them or create your own and go all tedious, the results are quite mind-blowing.
 
The downside for me using cabs live...if I were to take a DI out of the Axe FX into a PA, we'd have to work/eq the tone a little as it was created while using my cabs. My studio sound does not sound right coming through my cabs either....because it was created and eq'd through my studio monitors and headphones. What I've been doing that really rocks is...record the XLR (studio sound) and then I mic up my Greenback and record again doing 4 recordings of left/right using both sounds. It's been pretty massive sounding and gives me the sound I'm looking for.
 
One of my biggest issue with the Fractal piece is a lot of the kids using it don't know what a tube sound sounds like....so they create all these videos using sounds that are VERY transistor to my ears. The good thing is...the transistor sounds are quite good. The bad thing is....people interested in the unit seeing video's like that may turn away from it. Trust me...that thing can do anything...it's the real deal. I'm using a Marshall modded amp for my personal stuff in the axe fx and am loving it as much as all the other tones I've used through the years. It's just a shame the thing is so pricey...but it is pretty sick and loaded with options. :)
 
-Danny

clintmartin
I have had issues bonding with FRFR too. I'm using a HD500X/DT25 right now and had a HD500/DT50 before that. The POD sounds right through that amp, but a little fake and digital through FRFR. In fairness, all modelers have of the ones I've tried. I have never played through the AXEFX, Kemper or Helix.
The AX8 temps me, but my needs and tone are fairly simple and old school.

You too eh? Whew, glad I'm not TOO crazy! LOL! Yeah sometimes the further we get away from what I like to call "a core tone" the more fake it actually sounds.
 
I'm actually pretty simplistic too to be honest as far as my tone goes. I mean don't get me wrong, I use a lot of stuff, but the core of my tone consists of a compressor, drive, amp and a cab all in the Fractal. I use it like a big pedal board and have a pitch transposer (both intelligent and dumb lol) wah, chorus, delay, modulated delay, reverb and stereo enhancement. Playing in a cover band, some of that stuff I need. The Fractal (like your POD HD) allows me to light up what I need, save it in the patch and one click calls up everything I need.
 
We also have this cool thing called "scenes" which allow you to create a patch of all the sounds you need and set up little scene changes for that sound. For example, picture a pedal board that changes the sounds you want off and on within a patch using 5 spots (or more if you need them) due to how you set it up and save it. It's easy as heck too. So though I may have 13 or so effects, they don't all run at once. I can also stomp on something "when it's needed" so it's pretty open and flexible. The other cool thing...each effect has an X and a Y so you can use them twice, independently if needed. This REALLY comes in handy for delays as you may want a short delay on a rhythm or even a HAAS effect and then a longer one on your lead. You can do all of that on the same patch with one click of a button. It's definitely cool and can be as simple or as complex as you want. :)
 
I've not tried the Helix either but have had plenty of Kemper's in my studio. I hate them for dirty tones but liked the clean tone as well as how they felt and reacted like a real amp. They did this more so than the Axe Fx did...but we've had a few updates since fixed stuff like that. My other issue with the Kemper is....no offense Kemper guys/gals...it's ugly as heck! I messed with one for a month and though I came up with some cool sounds, I didn't think it was as cool as the AxeFx and it's way uglier LOL!
 
You know...I really like the POD stuff and always have. It just has always sounded bad for ME. I can get decent tones, but nothing ever blows me away. I use a bass POD here in the studio that I love. Most people can't believe I use that because I get some really nice bass tones....but that thing is killer in my opinion as long as you have a good bass to put into it and a good recording front end.
 
Hey Clint, doesn't Line 6 have some sort of guitar pre amp with a 12AX7 tube or something? Ever try that? I haven't but have always been curious. None of my clients so far have had one. You know what was really cool that came in here a few weeks ago? That Mesa studio pre-amp. I thought it would suck, but the dude got some pretty cool sounds out of it.
 
Getting back to Max....please to beat me up for going astray man....so sorry! I love this guitar stuff! :) Though I dig amp sims....I've never gotten the ultimate tone that made me smile using one. I've always gotten my best tones from hardware units. Digitech 2101, my Axe Fx, real amps, ADA Mp1 and 2, Marshall pre, Rocktron Chameleon (I still use that thing for some stuff lol) and even the old Johnson J-Station. That was a killer little rig. I even had a killer little pedal in here from Rocktron that really did knock my socks off. This dude showed up with the pedal board that was like $200 called a Utopia...ever hear of it? Honest...he comes in and has this exact sound down! This is the actual unit in action from their site...but this one sound was just off the hook!
 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Recto_Fried%5B1%5D.mp3
 
I swear I nearly bought the thing after hearing this sound....but I have my own stuff to where I can get that sound...but for $200?! It's pretty sick sounding...and that was years ago. Not sure what they cost now or if they even exist anymore...but it was a little pedal board-all-in-one thing. Goes to show you....some stuff can really make ya go "wow!?" :)
 
-Danny

maximumpower
Danny, no problem. I love this stuff too but just can't afford it all. I really really wanted an AxeFx but couldn't justify the cost. If I added up everything I have purchased (that I am still currently using), I have spent enough to get an AxeFx :-)
 
 
I am still working on trying to get blues tone that I like. It does Texas Blue OK but there is something harsh to me that I can't get rid off unless I really cut the high end but then it sounds muddy.
 
I will try to get a sample up but I am not a good player and when I spend so much time to get a not so good tone, I don't feel like posting lol
 
Thanks everyone for the help. 

Aww man, don't ever feel like that. Having a better tone will make you a better player. When my tone was bad, so was I. As soon as my tone improved, it made me feel better about the sound I got which inspired me to get better. :)
 
If you'd rather send me a sample in private, you can do that too. I really want to help you out if possible. That harshness may be something that:
 
a) shouldn't be there that we can fix
b) may be an easy tweak that you may not know how to fix where me or someone else may know.
 
Yeah see, that's the problem with guitar stuff. You can't afford stuff, so you buy all these things you can afford while never being happy.....at the end of it all, you spent as much or more than if you would have purchased something monstrous.
 
A little story for ya real quick...
 
When I was learning to play guitar, there were a few guys I really looked up to (well, ok, I look up to everyone...I'm pretty short lol) that really were inspiring. I remember seeing one of the guys go to his girlfriend's house. He was like the big guitar star around here. About 10 years older than me. But I was riding my bike and happened to see him. I waited outside in the distance for hours just to tell him how great he was and to ask him how I could get better.
 
When he came out, I got the same generic answer everyone gave. "You just gotta practice man!" I asked about special guitar stuff or amp mods, pedals...etc....I mean c'mon, the dude wasn't a rock star...he was a local hero. He barely gave me the time of day...and I guess rightfully so since I sort of stalked him that day. But I was excited...what can I say? I was like 12...a little kid just blown away by this guy with his Marshall stack, Gibson Explorer and massive sound. He had the hair and the looks and dressed really cool....he was who I wanted to be.
 
I was really upset at the answers he gave me. The same with reading all the guitar player mags at that time that didn't tell you about modified amps or pups or hidden pedals that made for these ferocious tones we all heard. It really was disappointing.
 
I remember working a job in the summer that I absolutely hated. I wanted to buy the best Marshall head money could buy when I was in 8th grade. When I got it, I wanted to throw up. It sounded horrible and I had a Crate that sounded better than that thing. I remember being so bummed, I thought of hanging myself. LOL! Ok, not really...but I was bummed!
 
This got me deep into tone tweaking and buying gear. I bought so much gear bro, I never had a dime because it always went towards new gear. One day I looked around my basement...and cringed at what I saw. It looked like a music store graveyard of stuff that either sounded good in the music store and sucked when I got it home, or "so and so" in "Guitar World" or some other mag was using this thing. A lot of the stuff was cheap. Some of it was pricey. But when I looked at all this gear....it made me sick. The stuff I could have bought if I would have had the right direction and know-how.
 
When I was finally super happy with a rig, it was insanely expensive. But it was the best money I ever spent because every time I played, I loved my tone....even if no one else did. Anything pricey that I have purchased has just about always worked for me. Don't get me wrong, some cheaper stuff can be awesome. But you usually get what you pay for with the pricier stuff. I've done the research and just did what anyone else would do....saved my money a little at a time and got it when the time was right. Looking back, I'm sorry I didn't do that more often. I spent so much on so little....if you know what I mean.
 
I'm not trying to talk you or anyone else into an Axe FX for God sakes...but my point is, *something* with a little weight can really pull you out of the frustration zone. It may be a red kidney bean guitar POD....or that pedal that dude used. Did you check out that tone? I know it's real metal sounding...but man, I've heard mic'd amps that couldn't stand up to that little thing.
 
At any rate.....blues tones are sometimes difficult tones to hone in on. Partly because that break-up you need needs to have some sort of secret sauce going on. As soon as it gets too driven or harsh, it gets synthetic and you lose the blues vibe. So if you get time....try to shoot me over something via email if you want. Or message me on here. If I can at least find out where the harshness is coming from or what area and instruct you on how to correct it, that puts you where you need to be. :) Just remember man....I don't sit here and listen to people and say to myself "he's not very good.....he should hang it up, I'm better than him". I don't think anyone on here is like that other than pistol pete. We're here to help bro....at the end of the day, we're all stuck in this big world together. Might as well make the best of it. :)
-Danny

Analog source
 
vs
 
digital source
 
 
the IR's are all just math, eh?
and listening thru different monitor/room setups,
is going to give you a very clinical, scientific look at what is going on...
 
 
on the other hand,
capturing a really rich sounding amp/cab setup with a mic, 
in a really good room,
is going to provide a 3 dimensional effect that is extremely difficult to match with just math.
 
the Kemper profiler, and the Axe FX II is the closest i've heard to getting to that 'unobtanium'...
 
but what i know, is that the 'source' sound, is more important than the IR,
and the pros that use them, know this.
 
i haven't heard the desktop bias,
sounds very intriguing...
 
but you'll notice that in all the 'comparison' videos,
the guys are using the same monitoring system for playback......
and from THEIR perspective, the differences between different IR's may be really obvious,
but as soon as you move it to a more consumer grade playback system,
the SHORTCOMINGS of the IR's may become more obvious.
 
 
my personal belief?
i can't do better than a real amp, cab, and mic.