Verse and Chorus Dilemmas

Any of you ponder verse vs. chorus strategies (for, say, pop-rock or such)?  If so, please share any of your thoughts (great or small).  I'm not too bright in this domain.
 
I've a song or 2 ...
The 2 seem to flip-flop: verse morphs into chorus and chorus becomes verse ... ?!?!
 
The problem occurs when I combine 2 song melodies into a similar groove and beat.
 
... and I'm probably violating pop hook-paradigms ...
 
(I even (painstakingly) re-arranged to a more traditional verse-chorus predictability ... but the song seemed none-the-better for 'fixing' it.)
 
'Just please share some of your thoughts on verse vs. chorus.  Thanks in advance!
 

When verses and choruses start to morph into one another it's time to dump something and get a fresh perspective.

Quite simply...in the songwriting world, a verse and a chorus should be quite different.  The verse tends to tell a story and generally in three parts.... the chorus is the part that ties it all together and even lifts the energy level of the song a few degrees.

Bob Dylan tended to write quite a few tunes with no perceptable chorus....(The times they are a changing... Tangled up in blue....IIRC) it just goes on and on. A chorus also gives a break to the monotony of the verses as in the Dylan songs. Not critisizing Dylans writing at all.... he had a number of big hits with that style......try it today and I don't think it would work.

I'd have to look back through my Taxi reviews, but one of the reviews commented that the chorus was "too similar to the verse in structure" and that I should look at a rewrite to differentiate it a bit more.

The chorus of the song is often where you find the melodic and lyrical hook...and most listeners...(the average non-musician...), when asked to "sing a song" and given the title, will naturally start in the chorus.....not the verse.

So.... how can you "shake it up" a bit when you're stuck in a morphing rut?

Lets say you are writing a song in "C"..... lets say that the verses all begin with the root chord C.  When you get to the chorus...DO NOT start with a C. Try one of the following...... Am    or    F    or    G    or.... experiment and get a chord other than C. This will put you on a path that is immediately different from the path of the verse...and you will be forced to find the melodic path through this new chord progression.  ALSO...pay close attention to the chorus melody line...regardless of the chords..... be absolutely certain that it is sufficiently different from the verse.

Using another Dylan song to illistrate this.... Blowin in the Wind..... verses are C ... F ... and G   How many roads must a man walk down....... until the short chorus.... The answer my friend, is blowin in the wind..... it goes to F...G...C..Am....  different chords...different melody...and the hook is in that short chorus.  Mention that song to people who have heard it...and they'll go..." Oh yeah" and start singing... " The answer my friend...."

So yeah the verse & chorus need to be different...and there are several ways to get this done. I like to use a different chord to start the chorus and or bridge......

My 2 centavos.

...share some of your thoughts on verse vs. chorus.

Somebody's bound to say it: if it sounds good, it is good.

Personally, I have a very hard time sticking to the conventional V-C-V-C format, even when I intend to.

For example, I am a fan of sections (sometimes they qualify as a "bridge", sometimes more of a "chasm") that have nothing to do musically with either verse or chorus, more like an interlude or side exploration. That includes refrains and extended endings that stand alone as mini-songs within a song (think "na-na-na-na-na-na" at the end of Hey Jude or the "she's so heavyyyy" at the end of "I Want You" on Abbey Road).

Another technique I often employ is picking up the tempo on the chorus. It doesn't have to be much, just going from 58 BPM to 60BPM lends a dynamic lift even if the listener isn't consciously aware of what just happened. This minor subtlety helps differentiate the verse and chorus even if they are melodically and/or rhythmically similar.

No How


Just a note that all songs don't necessarily have a 'chorus' but a hook at either the openning or closing of the verse which is the 'gist' of the song...(like Jimmy mentioned)

Lately I've been listening to a lot of old standards, and most of them seem to take that approach. "What a Wonderful World" by Louis Armstrong, "Johnny Be Good" or any 12bar blues tune, etc.

The verse/chorus breakup seemed to crop up when rock'n'roll hit the scene in the 50s, and that's how the game's been played ever since. A few folks stuck to the old way, like Jimi Hendrix whose songs AFAIK never had a true chorus but were amazing & popular nonetheless. Zeppelin had choruses maybe 50% of the time. Still, you can't deny the power of a really good chorus when it hits you.

This is a good topic for me because for the last few weeks I've been stuck at the chorus part of a song with no ideas. Maybe I ought to just forget the chorus and move on to the theramin solo.

I don't worry about it too much. I just follow the trail I'm getting led down.

  Phillip.
     As strange as this may seem every single time I look at
your avator I see the cab of a tracker trailer rig. (just the
tracker without the trailer). The top part of it is red and the
bottom part is blue. There is something "happy" about that
picture.

  O,K, back to the subject at hand. I learn a great deal by
speaking with you and others. I think I've been trying to
put my finger on some subjects and I'm close but not all the
way there.

   As I look at myself and the songs I've posted on the
songs forum I can see a person (me) who is trying to
do something. I've gone in a few directions with style.
I try to avoid being a maverick in the sense of artistry.

  There is a good and bad way to be (unlike the norm)
I can't see how anyone who throws a bucket of paint
on a wall can call it art! Nor can I see a bunch of "mumbo
jumbo"  thrown together as a song art either.

   It seems there must be some conformity to be valid
in the since of great art/music. What this does to me is
make me consider the value of artistry to the people who
are not artist/musicians.

  I think it comes down to how well the performance
/presentation is. (and of course how good the song is)
I think the songs forum is missing the "pop music"
sound because it's so hard to do.

  Some people can show no respect for pop music and
call it all trash (which a lot of it is) but I think for some
it's a cop out. My ex wife is a good example. We played
cover tunes and she sang the "hits" of country/crossover
tunes.

  She would easily trash the vocal ability of the very
artist who's songs she sang. Yet praise the vocal ability
of singers who did not sing so well. She wrote a song
she was so proud of.  I said honey that's great but you
copied the melody of a "hit song" by Hal Cachem.

  That pissed her off so bad to be made aware of that.
My point is I think some of us would write/produce songs
in a more popular style "If we could". I think if there could
only be one way to describe what great lyrics are it
would be the fact that it must sound and flow like
conversation.

  This then determines whether it's a verse chorus
or whatever structure. In poetry a person can be
poetic to a fault. If it's all a bunch of rhyme and phrases
but there is no "flow" then it's a bunch of brokenness.

  A person can be taught to be a mechanic/electrician
etc but even then the person has to "take the ball and
run" to excel. Some of us "just do it" and things just
flow together. bless those who have that gift but
some of us have the potential but haven't blossomed yet.

  There are so many "truths" that are extremely valid
and useful yet we can sometimes totally disregard the
value of them. I could look at myself and say wow
jimmy I've done some cool songs but the truth is
I aint going to win any Nobel Prize.

   You and Nohow do some remarkable stuff. It amazes
me that you two have such a gift to do so. If I'm
correct in saying so you two are however looking into
some type of conformity in a very artistic and tasteful
way.

  I think that's what great artist do. If I'm correct
on this observation also I think "hooks" in songs
are or have become old school. (In a certain way that is)
I think maybe some people consider the "melodic
phrase" as less important than the "lyrical content" of it.

  I was standing at the checkout yesterday. A lady was
humming as song. No words just humming. I was at
another place one day and this younger person was
singing a song. (with words)

  What is common between the two?  The melody.
I never recall anyone only speaking the words of
a song. A person can have a song with no lyrics
but you can't have a song with no melody.

  As of lately I seem to write better if I let the melody
dictate what the chord structure becomes and the lyrics
as well. I just sing dummy words and then find lyrics
that can say what I try to while keeping the rythemic
content of the dummy words that just come out.

  So how does verse/chorus or whatever structure
fall into this? I don't know but even accepting that
I don't know has given me some sort of happiness
and motivation.
 

i think the basic issue here is dynamics and phrasing. verse/chorus is just a simplistic approach to what used to be a subtle art. not that there's anything wrong with that, VCVCBCC is fine... but think in terms of dynamics and phrasing and you can get out of that "rut" if you want to, even if you stay in it.

I sometimes will take a popular song and use it's format as a template.  Just like having a couple of CDs around to compare your mix to, you can use a tune as a measuring stick for your format.

By the time you add your own style and flavor to the tune, no one will ever notice that your structure is the same as the other song.

Lately I have fallen into a pattern that I really liked for a long time

V > 1/2 C >V >Dbl C > Bridge or break >V >C


I have to fight to get out of this so i start with small changes like this

V > 1/2 C >Dbl V> Dbl C> 8 bar Bridge> 1/2 V > Full chorus

I don't always have a key change between verses and choruses but i do think there always has to be a lift - could be a change in tempo, harmonic and melodic structure, mood - There has to be something to move you emotionally to a different place - most the time in pop, R&b it is the hook and it can be driven home in various sections of the song.

there are as many ways to write songs as there are songs so no rules - just whatever you like

DK,  been meaning to try to hook up with you for ages.  We must work together again.

marcos69


DK,  been meaning to try to hook up with you for ages.  We must work together again.

A must ! - I'll pm you soon

I'm not sure how to elaborate.

Each composition is on its own. I just use whatever form enables me to say what needs to be said. Sometimes it is verse/chorus, sometimes it changes to something completely different in the middle somewhere. I never force anything. I will craft it, but I won't force it. When the creative process leads in a particular direction, I just follow along and see where it goes.