Video Engine problem - any work arounds?!

I am trying to move the In Point of a video in Sonar X3, which can apparently only be done when using Direct Show engine.
 
"Adjusting a video clip's start time is currently only supported when using the DirectShow video engine, not when using the Media Foundation video engine."
 
I have switched Sonar X3 video engine from the Default Media Foundation engine to the Direct Show engine as instructed by Cakewalk Documentation. 
 
However, when checking 'Info' tab in the 'Video Properties' it keeps saying it's using Media Foundation Engine. (I checked a previous project that uses Direct Show and Info tab shows it is Direct Show so I know the config file is properly set up - and I can tweak the in point)
 
Does Sonar X3 sometimes over-ride the Direct Show Engine when it thinks a file should be Media Foundation? Is there a way top stop it? 
 
Video Properties, MPEG-4, AVC baseline @L4.0, 1920x1080, 25fps, 4,281kbps - standard mp4 export from Final Cut
 
I really need to just shift the in point so I can edit music to a video and there is no other way I can think to get it to start where I need it to be so I can edit to the start of a bar with click/BPM.
 
I was able to do this before the Xd update and now I'm really stuck looking for a solution with a tight deadline looming - Please Help!!

Hi Jimbo,
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm writing some music for a client's showreel, I actually did send my draft music file with a Bar of high pitch clicks to help with sync, but for some reason the editor in his wisdom has removed them so when I got sent the video file back the clicks had gone and the file doesn't line up. 
 
In the past this hasn't been a problem as I could just shift the video in-points to line it back up with music after importing it - but with the post X3d changes this is no longer possible and there's some weird bug stopping the Direct Show engine from running...
 
I know how to video edit, so I've had to do what you suggest and dropped the file into Final Cut Pro on my Mac and re-aligned it with the clicks on the original audio draft. I've exported the .mov file and then re-imported it back into Sonar with no problem - but I have wasted half the day messing around with this issue and video editing when it should have been a 5 minute job and I could have been creating music!
 
I have been incredibly disappointed with Cakewalk's approach to video & music in Sonar, you are so right that it is just not worth bothering with, such a shame that such a powerful DAW is completely let down by poor video features!
 
Having said that I should have guessed the editor was a bit useless when he told me he thought the clicks were part of the music track... Doh!  
 
I would really still like to know why the Direct Show engine hasn't been worked, and if Cakewalk will enable in-point editing for Media Foundation video engine any day soon  - Xf perhaps?

trying to tinker with video in an audio app, or get the audio app to do more than just play the video and allow you to sync audio events to it, i think is a bit off base. 
 
many folks have been able to work with video in sonar, not elegant, maybe, but doable... there have been many posts...
 
i'm a vegas editor as well. i do much of my audio in vegas, as it really began as a multitrack audio editor. if i need to compose something of a set length, i'll do that in sonar and import to vegas, or use something like the old cinescore. if a piece of audio needs work, i use a combo of sound forge and sonar.
 
the right tool for the job. sonar is so complex, i'd rather they concentrate on the audio rather than trying add more video functionality.

As of X3E the video engine setting is treated as the "default mode". i.e. its the default engine is used to attempt to load the video and if it fails to load there then it will try the alternate engine. If you did switch to directshow and restart sonar and the video still loads in MF mode then it typically means that Directshow cannot load that video format. Its not a bug. MP4's are not supported by DShow by default since a decoder doesn't ship with windows so you will need a 3'rd party codec for that.
 
The inability to trim or move videos in MF mode is a Microsoft limitation that we are waiting for them to resolve. Its far from a simple issue though it might appear that way. A huge amount of work was put in to video in X3 and it is a lot more powerful than before. We will add improvements in the future when Microsoft adds further support.

I think if making the super all in one video/audio editor that is state of art at both was simple it would have been done by now.  Vegas comes closest but  the audio core has hardly been touched in over ten years.  Most audio improvements have come in the form of third party plugins developed for Sound Forge or audio for video specific functions like surround sound enhancements. Core plugins are ancient.  That is a testament to both the quality of the plugins but also a statement about the focus of Sony.

LpMike75
In Pro Tools I can trim video, slip edit, adjust start and end times etc, all while using Microsoft Windows.  Just for anyone who cares.
 
Sonar has given me so many headaches working with video, I ended up going Jimbo's route with Vegas.  Unlike him, I have never gotten AVI to work with Sonar, so I always use WMV files with Sonar. 

which codec are you using with avi?  I think this throws people off a lot because there are so many common file types that can be housed in an avi container.

dubdisciple

LpMike75
In Pro Tools I can trim video, slip edit, adjust start and end times etc, all while using Microsoft Windows.  Just for anyone who cares.
 
Sonar has given me so many headaches working with video, I ended up going Jimbo's route with Vegas.  Unlike him, I have never gotten AVI to work with Sonar, so I always use WMV files with Sonar. 

which codec are you using with avi?  I think this throws people off a lot because there are so many common file types that can be housed in an avi container.

I don't know which codec of AVI I have tried.  I gave up a while back and just moved on with WMV.  Like you, I only use it as a reference and re-import the music to Vegas and then bounce to Quicktime or whatever format the client needs as a reference.  
 
As of late, I have had more and more clients ask me to marry the music with the picture.  (Most of this type of work is bumpers or web commercials).  At first I didn't like it, but then I realized, if they are asking me to put the music in the final cut, that means they are done editing!  It totally makes up for those jobs that request 10 different music cuts because they don't stop editing lol

Noel - many thanks, you answered my question as to why having changed the video engine from MF to DS that Sonar reverts back to MF if it can'd load the clip in DS. The major issue being for me that the in-point set box is therefore greyed out and can't be used.
 
However, I know that this can be blamed on Microsoft, but can't Sonar take a leaf out of some of the other DAWs mentioned above that can already do this really simple yet important task and come up with their own solution? It seems like there's a lot of other people who would like this to work properly but are going elsewhere to get the job done...
 
dlion16 - sorry I think you need to re-read my original Post, as I don't think I'm being "a bit off base". I wasn't "tinkering" or asking for any major video enhancements and new functionality, just the ability to move the in-point as I "have been able to" in previous releases, to start the video so it's in sync with my music. (Also I don't create the video, it's sent by the client so I'm not really in control of the format etc). Sonar was the right tool for the job!

I would just like to warn anyone who is thinking about shelling out for Vegas that you still won't be able to export 1:1 quality video with new audio. It has its own rendering options which may end up looking different from the original.

I understand completely, and should have mentioned I only just started using it. However, the OPs needs seem just as small/simple as my own and the simple fact is that Vegas does not allow you to simply replace audio and export the existing video stream. I have little knowledge about video software but it seems to me that as soon as you start rendering again, differences (for better or worse) between source and end product can arise and it has certainly been my experience.

At the very least it's not a simple "just get Vegas and you're good to go".

Sanderxpander
 ... the simple fact is that Vegas does not allow you to simply replace audio and export the existing video stream.

That's not been my experience with Vegas 9 Pro.
I can easily replace any audio and re render (I'd not call it "export") the video, or any part of it,
with the new audio, even with the old audio in the project, as long as the old is muted,
or to take it further, even parts of the new audio and the old audio combined,
or just the video, or just the audio. It seems every imaginable option is easily available.
Slicing, moving clips, using volume envelopes or composite envelopes is very easy for me in Vegas.
 
To the OP.
Yea. Fix it in Vegas or any other Video NLE.
In Vegas if you need more room at the front just drag the video clip down the time line a good bit to give yourself the head room.
You can set tempo in Vegas and then tell the time line to show Measures & Beats, turn on snap, snap the start of the video
to measure 4 beat one. Render, import into Sonar project with same tempo and there ya go.
You can also disable all snapping and slide the video ( or audio ) by samples and get an exact start point lined up with a measure / beat or minutes:seconds:frames.
 

I never suspected that Vegas could remux. There seem to be other tools for that.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/Forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=861323
 
But that won't solve the OPs "slide the video" issue and since the OP want's to compose to the video
this implies that he's only working with a reference video and is not responsible for the final output.
So re rendering is no big deal.
Just send the newly composed audio to the producer / editor and they'll add it in the original project file along side the dialog and folly tracks.
 
Back to it...
The 'slide the video' problem is easily solved with Vegas or any other NLE that will allow setting tempo and viewing timeline by measures & Beats. Adding any desired count or number of bars in front of the video, or slip editing the video to a later start point is solved.
Then again, maybe a later version of Sonar will fix it by adding the same type of video engine Vegas is using.
P.S. Make sure your frame rates match exactly!

Understood.
But to be more clear, expecting Vegas to remux isn't really relevant to problems working with video in Sonar.
It's a side issue and expectation about Vegas that has nothing to do with working with video in Sonar.

I believe Vegas, or any other decent NLE, can solve any and all problems that are actually only about working with video in Sonar.
 

Ah so I'm not alone!!!!
 
 
I have a video which I need to start at  137813 in my project.......and have followed the Help here http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Playback.46.html#1643946
but still getting Media Foundation as the video engine... the video is in .MOV format
 
 
HELP! How do I get my video to start where I want it?
 
Edit:
 
I am using Sonar Platinum - fully up to date
I do not want to fork out for a video editing suite just for this (simple?) task...