Helpful ReplyVocal Layering

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ruralrocker2010
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2017/04/02 19:44:35 (permalink)

Vocal Layering

Hey All,
 
HOW IN THE %^&$ do you get cool group vocals if you're just one guy?
 
I'm looking for some sage advice to help me unlock some musicality in my mind. I love group vocals and harmonies, but every time I've ever tried to do them they just sound like me with no real differentiation. I must admit, I'm not a GREAT harmonizer, but I don't think that's the whole story.
 
I've used melodyne and more recently I have a trial of Izotope Necatar. I've tried distance, whisper track, adding more air and really it's only ever produced marginal results. HOW IN THE %^&$ do you get cool group vocals if you're just one guy?
 
If the answer is, it's pretty much impossible, I'll be happier but perhaps demos of melodyne and nectar are misleading because my use of them has really only ever produced a frequency resonation that is often tinny and quite obviously the same voice. Things I'm looking for are "Some Nights - Fun"....would love that. Or any folk duet song...with harmonies.
 
Please and thank you. I'm looking for any and all advice and perhaps a new perspective on old advice too.

Joshua Barnes
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#1
dwardzala
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/02 20:29:26 (permalink)
First you need good harmonies.  I am not sure how you are doing it, but you can take your lead and copy it another track and then use Melodyne to create a harmony track as a guide to sing along to.  You can do that for several different parts.
 
When you have the parts, there are many ways to process them to make them more "backing", adding a different reverb from the lead, a touch of distortion, different EQ (think lo-fi), etc.

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#2
Jimbo21
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/02 22:51:18 (permalink)
To me, you have to sing the parts and layer them to start. They need to be tight in phrasing and pitch as well, but not cloned, which doesn't really work. I do at least two tracks for every harmony part and I will sometimes use more depending on the song. If you need it, (and i do), use pitch correction to get as natural a sound for each track as possible. It takes some work depending on your singing ability.
 
I usually add a doubler effect on a bus and send the tracks there. I think this really helps with backing vocals. I also use reverb sends and maybe delay sends as well.
 
HTH
 
 
 

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 06:37:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/05/08 13:08:20
The guys above really nailed it.
 
You do need to sing them. Every single one. The software won't do it for you. You can use software to arrange harmonies and then as guide tracks, but that should be it. If you can't sing it all by yourself, get someone else to sing a view lines and blend it with your voices.
 
You can use Melodyne to fix a view notes in the backing tracks but don't use the quick macro to make it all flat. If you need too many corrections, get back in front of the mic. Tough at the beginning, but much quicker once you learned to work your voice rather than the software ...
 
Mixing tricks are numerous. Most important would be EQ and reverb, but that won't help unless the individual vox tracks are good enough to start with.

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#4
Slugbaby
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 13:01:54 (permalink)
Another thing to remember is how to mix them.  If you get 2 or 3 harmony melodies, don't pan them to the same place or set the volume so that they're all equally audible.
 
What I do is record the main vocal line, then switch to an instrument I'm more proficient at (usually the guitar).  Then I'll try to come up with a line that fits in my vocal range and adds to the vocal melody without overpowering it.  Then sing that guitar line.
Lately my backup vocals have been lower-pitched than my main "tenor" voice.  I'll often set that much quieter, and pan it to the opposite side from the lower tom drums.  For some songs, even whispering the vocal line (same pitch) in the background can have a great effect.

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#5
robert_e_bone
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 13:49:54 (permalink)
I can't locate it anymore - probably still out there - there was a video clip of Michael Jackson recording track after track of him singing the exact same vocal line, with Quincy Jones running the recording session.
 
In the video clip, Michael Jackson first of all, NAILS each take with spot-on pitch and intonation, and secondly he would physically move his body between 6" and 1' for each take, so that every one of them was slightly different, both in proximity to the microphone, and also because of slight differences in vibration and tone and such.
 
Layering those all up - with slightly different panning, and volumes, gives an INCREDIBLY rich vocal part.
 
The clip is for the We Are the World song, by the way.
 
I don't think I will ever forget how well that approach worked for vocals.
 
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#6
AT
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 14:31:12 (permalink)
This may not be possible but one of the great things about music is doing it with other people.  Find some musical friends and work with them.  It probably won't help with engineering questions (but "we'll always have the forum") but you'll learn sooo much about making music and, well, differing vocals are so much more easy ;-)  Unless you're M Jackson ;-)

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glennstanton
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 16:52:05 (permalink)
beside the great advice already provided, you can also take a lead or harmony vocal and convert it to midi, then use that for a pad (or multiple ones...) track to further augment the harmonies. sometimes you just want to have some padding during sections that simulate a backing vox but are not specifically a real vocal.

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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 20:07:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ruralrocker2010 2017/04/05 22:01:56
I've always wanted to try the Bowie "Heroes" technique, but don't record in a room big enough:
 
Set up a close mic in front of where you'll be singing.
Set up a mic farther away, and put a noise gate on the input so it only picks up the voice when it's sung louder.
Set up a mic at the far end of the room, and put a noise gate on the input so it only picks up the voice when it's sung loudest.
This way, as the vocal performance changed from quiet to almost shouted, more mics came in and re-shaped the sound.

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#9
timidi
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/03 22:06:49 (permalink)
You'll never get the same flavor of real group vocals doing it all yourself. 
The different timbres of different people's voices is just something you can't emulate.
At least as far as I know. Which of course could be some what limited.

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Guitarhacker
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/05 13:09:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ruralrocker2010 2017/04/05 22:02:10
The way I do this is similar to what has already been discussed.
 
I record the lead vocal on several tracks. Each one is a unique recording take. The goal here is to get the phrasing, pitch, and timing as close to exact as possible.  For example, you want all the "S's" to end together, and start at the same time. Leave nothing hanging out there on it's own. Those "S" sounds tend to cut through clearly and will be heard.  You do the same thing with the harmony tracks.
 
How many tracks you record is up to you. I tend to do at least 5 for a minimum. One lead, 2 layered leads, and two harmonies. I take the time to work through each track using Melodyne to fix the pitch and timing issues.

Mixing:  I run the main lead up the center and at the proper level for the lead vocal in the song. The layered leads are panned to the sides and are at -10dB or more.  Generally, I don't really want to be able to hear them in the mix. Hit the solo for the vocal buss and you should be able to hear the layered lead tracks. If you record 4 lead vocal layers, pan 2 R and 2 L and put them at different positions..... one at 50% and the other at 100% for example balanced on both sides. Experiment with levels and position.
 
Do a similar thing for the harmonies. Unless you are looking for a Statler Brothers vocal harmony where each harmony voice is clearly audible, keep the harmonies down low like the layered lead vox. Bring them in enough to provide the harmony spot without it sounding like a group of singers in there. I like to get that level to the point where the harmony is evident but not something that the casual listener instantly hears. It sounds good but they can't tell you why.  You hear this on many of the hit records.
 
Since it is the lead singer's voice and not other singers, it simply adds a fullness to the lead vocal or a thicker sound.
 
That's how I tend to work my vocal tracks in the songs I record.

If you're looking for a chorus of voices, rather than just layered subtle vocals and harmonies, using Melodyne and playing with the formants might get you where you want.  A better alternative is to find a few people interested in helping with the vocal chores and tap their time and talents for the projects that need vocal group singing and harmonies. In another forum site I tend to hang out in, there are vocal collaborations on projects quite often. I've been in a few. Someone sends me a rough file and I lay my equally rough vocal on it and send them back a raw wave. They do the hard work on their mixing process. There are both male and female vocalists doing this. Most requests come in the form of a PM asking if the person is interested in helping out. The downside is that the project time schedule depends on others getting the recording done and back to you in a timely manner. The upside is, it doesn't sound like you sang it all with formant artifacts on display.
 
Edit: one more thing... I hesitate to even suggest this.... the Vocaloid singers are getting better. Some of them excel at certain genres of music and some of them are decent as background singers as long as they are low in the mix and not the lead singer. That gets you a female singer that is on call any time you need.   (proceed with caution) Personally, I don't have one and probably never will.
 
Just my 2 cents. Hope this helps.

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jamesg1213
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/05 19:41:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ruralrocker2010 2017/04/05 22:02:15
I always remember this doc with Michael McDonald talking about doing backing vocals for Steely Dan. Scroll to 6:20.
 

 
No real substitute for working out the harmonies and singing all the parts, really well.

 
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ruralrocker2010
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/04/05 22:02:37 (permalink)
Thank you all for your contributions. It's very much appreciated!
 
Hey Herb thank you for your reply. What they heck is a vocaloid singer?!

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#13
rscain
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/05 17:51:21 (permalink)
I did this song with a TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3. They're a little expensive (around $500) but I'm really happy with the results (all the vocal parts are me):
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13430399

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Randy P
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/05 18:46:01 (permalink)
Hey Joshua, take a listen to this tune. I recorded this around 6 or 7 years ago. It's kinda dissonant and has some weird phrasing in the verses, but take a listen to the harmonies in the chorus. I wanted that "10cc" type of vibe and with some experimenting I got something pretty cool. It was multiple tracks and creative use of reverb and panning.
 
http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/player.cfm?type=single&songid=6967517&q=hi&newref=1
 
What I'm getting at is, you have a good voice and you just need to work with it and experiment some. Soft falsetto close mic, standing farther from the mic and singing a harder and louder harmony, layering and creative delay, reverb, panning. All these techniques are good starting points to come up with something of your own.

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markno999
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/09 19:32:06 (permalink)
Joshua,
 
Have been looking into this recently.  Here is the best video I found on using Melodyne to create vocal harmonies with a single voice.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r3P8l50a-M
 
 
Regards
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timidi
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/10 02:05:17 (permalink)

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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/10 16:36:37 (permalink)
The thing that makes a choir a choir is not just everyone singing a phrase with slightly different start and stop times, not just that every singer has different tonal qualities, not just that everyone has a different pitch range, but also that everyone pronounces words differently.  If you sing all of your own vocal parts, you are always pronouncing your words the same on each take.  Even if you modify each take by nudging the start time, modifying the timbre, modifying the pitch, you are still pronouncing all of your words the way it comes naturally to You.
 
"but every time I've ever tried to do them they just sound like me with no real differentiation."  This is one reason why.  Listen to Ringo sing "With A Little Help From My Friends" and then listen to Joe Cocker sing it.  Listen to Mick Jagger pronounce his words.  Try and listen to Elton John pronounce his words.
 
Something to think about.
 
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savageopera
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Re: Vocal Layering 2017/05/10 18:08:21 (permalink)
Joshua: A formulative album for me was the first Creedence Clearwater Revival album where John Fogerty apparently performed all the vox tracks himself, making the work a real standout. I loved the tight, clear blend, and unique sound of his 3 and 4 part harmonies compared to the " generic" sound generated by a group of "studio" singers readily found on many of the recordings of the day. You are a strong singer and your backup vocals will give your songs an original sound (even if you tire of it yourself) that others might find interesting and fresh. Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, and sometimes its not. I just thought I would offer a different take on this...IMO. Of course it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Just a thought.....Ron.
post edited by savageopera - 2017/05/10 18:34:28

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