mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
About a year ago, someone sent a poem to me, and I tailored it into lyrics and sent them back my rendition. It was catchy, sounded nice; and with the release of X2, I suddenly had R-MIX SONAR. At that time I looked at this track and there were 3 very distinct tonals coming from my voice. It struck me as odd, and I assumed the overtones were from my nasal cavity, etc., but could not really analyze this further. Now that I have Melodyne (from X3), I have looked at this same track again. First, I was happy that I sang this acapella and hit F major almost perfectly by simply grabbing a microphone. But now I can see the notes... and in many areas there are 3 distinct notes (root, perfect octave, and 5th above the octave). In other cases, it is the root and the octave (a couple are root and 7th), and others simply the root. But as I look at this track it is highly polyphonic. Does anyone know a good place to read on the "mechanics" of voice? I once had a friend who studied music say, "You can sing a tone, hum the fifth an get an implied 3rd, and hence chord." So I assume I am doing something similarly, but not sure exactly what (or perhaps my nasal cavity creates the octave and my beak is making the 5th above that!). The fifths above the octave are so far out of my vocal range it is not funny, yet if I remove these the voice track sounds "dead." So bottom line... where are the harmonics in the voice generated? Michael
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
jb101
Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2946
- Joined: 2011/12/04 05:26:10
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 03:27:47
(permalink)
An octave above, and the up a fifth, are the first notes in the harmonic series. Whenever we make a pitched sound (either sung, or played on an instrument), the note contains many overtones that follow the harmonic series (except possibly a perfect sine wave). The relative amplitude of these are what give an instrument or voice it's timbre. I suggest google-ing Harmonic Series. It is fascinating stuff. I never thought of using Melodyne to look at this. It may be useful to use it with my students. Thank you for the thought. edited to correct stupid iPad spell checker - grrrrr
post edited by jb101 - 2013/10/08 04:24:53
|
ston
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 965
- Joined: 2008/03/04 12:28:40
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 04:18:41
(permalink)
mettelus So bottom line... where are the harmonics in the voice generated?
As jb101 pointed out, 1st-Octave-5th is a harmonic series, so I would say 'resonant chamber' which in the case of humans would be the larynx. The throat, tongue, mouth etc. would apply filtering and envelope control to the set of partials generated in the larynx, creating recognisable sounds (words). That's my best guess anyhow :-)
|
Sidroe
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1954
- Joined: 2010/11/10 18:59:43
- Location: Macon,Georgia
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 07:22:04
(permalink)
Ston is absolutely right. The harmonic content of a tone is controlled by the filtering and envelope of the control. In this case, the face, lips, throat, tongue, etc. The human voice is the hardest instrument in the world to perform with. Think about all the components in your body it takes to sing just a simple line with complete control. Figure also the emotional state you are in while trying to sing.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
|
Lazyboy
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 28
- Joined: 2004/08/11 00:42:12
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 12:59:27
(permalink)
mettelus So bottom line... where are the harmonics in the voice generated? Michael
The harmonics are generated along with the primary tone by the vocal cords/vocal folds. They are modified, resonated, filtered etc. by the volume and shape of the larynx, oropharynx, nasopharynx, laryngopharyx and even the more outward aspects of the oral and nasal cavities. As stated a very complex process. Like having a bunch of plugins that don't just chain, but constantly interact with each other to modify sound. All we have to do is indulge in the joy of expression. Of course vocal training and precision are great, but we're doing art here, not photography. If you want to put Dylan through melodyne, fine. But I don't want to hear it.
|
Sidroe
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1954
- Joined: 2010/11/10 18:59:43
- Location: Macon,Georgia
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 16:08:59
(permalink)
Dylan with the TPain effect! Glorious! LMAO!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
|
Sidroe
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1954
- Joined: 2010/11/10 18:59:43
- Location: Macon,Georgia
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 16:10:02
(permalink)
Can't wait for Dylan's version of Cher's "Believe"!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 16:25:31
(permalink)
If you get a chance watch the Groove3 vid EQ Explained. There is a very good section explaining "fundamental tones" and "harmonics". All naturally occurring sounds (like your voice) will have a fundamental tone and harmonics surrounding that tone. If you only had the pure fundamental tone it would sound like a simple beeeeeeeep that you'd hear a TV channel play at the end of the broadcast day. The harmonics give sounds their "timbre". Usually a musical sound like a piano note or your voice holding a note will have the fundamental tone and then harmonics that spike at specific points in the frequency spectrum. The highest harmonic spikes will typically be where the 4th or 5th of that note appear as well as the octaves. That is likely what you witnessed when analyzing the recording.
|
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2817
- Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 16:30:54
(permalink)
|
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2817
- Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 16:37:03
(permalink)
In a related question, what harmonic is generated if I thumb-pick my vocal chords while holding my index finger over the 7th fret??? Oh, sorry. I see I'm not in the coffee house.
|
Bule
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 102
- Joined: 2009/12/12 09:08:51
- Location: Baton Rouge,LA
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 17:55:19
(permalink)
Some of the Mel Bay Guitar Improvisation books have some vocal training in them which is just basic diatonic scale chording. Example:1-3-5 of major scale = major chord so C-E-G so the voicing is the same with vocals but as you say the timbre is different but the theory is the same.
Rig HP dx7500-Core 2 Duo E7500 2.93 GHz 8 Gb memory, SATA 1TB 7200 64MB, Flatron W1942TE LG, Steinberg UR44 USB InterfaceX3 ProducerWindows 7- 64 bit Sonar Pro 8.5 & X1,X2a,X3- Pro
|
Grem
Max Output Level: -19.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5562
- Joined: 2005/06/28 09:26:32
- Location: Baton Rouge Area
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 18:02:32
(permalink)
Great info. This is why I keep coming back! And to read all the BS bickering we do around here! : )
Grem Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 18:13:46
(permalink)
Thanks all. My own curiosity made me pop open this file to take a second gander at it after getting Melodyne. R-Mix on the straight mic track would show three distinct yellow dots, but was not as helpful as looking at it with Meldodyne. I have always thought of overtones akin to a simple string instrument with "infinite overtones" that have an exponential delay in amplitude. Seeing three distinct tones of significant amplitude made me scratch my head. I guess of all the instruments I play with, I should probably put more research into the instrument I always have with me! Michael
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
Lazyboy
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 28
- Joined: 2004/08/11 00:42:12
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 18:47:54
(permalink)
Leadfoot In a related question, what harmonic is generated if I thumb-pick my vocal chords while holding my index finger over the 7th fret??? Oh, sorry. I see I'm not in the coffee house.
I'm not sure of the precise harmonic, but I remember the sound all too well. No more peyote for me.
|
Lazyboy
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 28
- Joined: 2004/08/11 00:42:12
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 18:51:41
(permalink)
Sidroe Can't wait for Dylan's version of Cher's "Believe"!
Geez. I can hear that and the Tpain sounds in my head. I think I prefer the peyote regurgitation sound. Note to NSA, future employer, etc. PEYOTE REFERENCE FOR HUMOROUS PURPOSES ONLY!
|
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2817
- Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 20:09:42
(permalink)
Lazyboy Note to NSA, future employer, etc. PEYOTE REFERENCE FOR HUMOROUS PURPOSES ONLY!
LOL... Nice disclaimer!
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 21:09:39
(permalink)
As stated, the harmonics in the voice are created by the vibration of the folds. The deeper the vibration, the louder the harmonics. What is typically referred to as "chest" voice has strong, rich harmonics due to deeper fold vibration (like a brass instrument), whereas falsetto, which is the thinnest fold vibration has much lower harmonics (sounds more like a flute). And as stated before, these harmonics are amplified and filtered by different vocal tract configurations to create vowels. Each vowel has a set of formants (resonant centers) that amplify the harmonics to create the vowel identity. One thing to note is the "singer's formant" which lies about 2k to 4k. This frequency band helps the voice cut through a mix. Opera singers rely on this region to cut through an orchestra and fill a concert hall. The "singer's formant" is also referred to as "twang" and is amplified by narrowing the epiglottic funnel (think donald duck).
|
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2817
- Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 21:24:15
(permalink)
guitartrek As stated, the harmonics in the voice are created by the vibration of the folds. The deeper the vibration, the louder the harmonics. What is typically referred to as "chest" voice has strong, rich harmonics due to deeper fold vibration (like a brass instrument), whereas falsetto, which is the thinnest fold vibration has much lower harmonics (sounds more like a flute). And as stated before, these harmonics are amplified and filtered by different vocal tract configurations to create vowels. Each vowel has a set of formants (resonant centers) that amplify the harmonics to create the vowel identity. One thing to note is the "singer's formant" which lies about 2k to 4k. This frequency band helps the voice cut through a mix. Opera singers rely on this region to cut through an orchestra and fill a concert hall. The "singer's formant" is also referred to as "twang" and is amplified by narrowing the epiglottic funnel (think donald duck).
Dude, you just blew my mind ...
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/08 21:38:51
(permalink)
LOL, yeah... I am sort of ashamed now at all the things I took for granted without knowing :(
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/24 00:34:34
(permalink)
Okay, I finally got back to looking at this track more closely. I found that because of the overtones in my voice that Melodyne doesn't move the overtones well (i.e. will not "snap to scale" which is the same issue of trying to snap a guitar after distortion is applied), so I went back to the raw file. I finally signed up for SoundCloud, so can share what I am talking about. I threw Concrete Limiter and Breverb 2 onto the track but it is otherwise raw. https://soundcloud.com/mettelus/maple-tree-vocal-mp3 What I *still* find odd is this (analyzed using polyphonic mode in Melodyne)... At the 17s point, the "my" has 5 very distinct notes (F3, C4, F5, A5, and F6). At least these are a chord, so makes sense (sort of). At the 22s point, the "lost" also had 5 tones (Bb3, Bb4, F5, Bb5, D5)... which is even stranger to me because the root is actually closer to A than Bb. I am baffled by singing F3, and getting and F5, and F6!! Michael
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Vocal Question - Where are harmonics created in the voice?
2013/10/24 07:28:18
(permalink)
mettelus Okay, I finally got back to looking at this track more closely. I found that because of the overtones in my voice that Melodyne doesn't move the overtones well (i.e. will not "snap to scale" which is the same issue of trying to snap a guitar after distortion is applied), so I went back to the raw file. I finally signed up for SoundCloud, so can share what I am talking about. I threw Concrete Limiter and Breverb 2 onto the track but it is otherwise raw. https://soundcloud.com/mettelus/maple-tree-vocal-mp3 What I *still* find odd is this (analyzed using polyphonic mode in Melodyne)... At the 17s point, the "my" has 5 very distinct notes (F3, C4, F5, A5, and F6). At least these are a chord, so makes sense (sort of). At the 22s point, the "lost" also had 5 tones (Bb3, Bb4, F5, Bb5, D5)... which is even stranger to me because the root is actually closer to A than Bb. I am baffled by singing F3, and getting and F5, and F6!! Michael
That's not all that odd. Particularly the octaves as the strongest overtones occur at the octaves. Then (IIRC) then next strongest would be the 5th. The one thing that MAY be a little weird is the flat third overtone in the Bb but that's just texture. No biggie. However, I used to play with a singer who had a physical oddity in his throat/vocal chords that made him have up to three separate "voices". Like the air and vibrations separated into three distinct primary tones all with their own overtones and he had learned to control them all. It was pretty cool/creepy sounding. His metal screams were very unique.
|