rogeriodec
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Vocal Rider vs Compressor
I'm honestly do not understand if there is any difference between using a Vocal Rider plugin or a compressor for a voice track. From what I can observe up to now, the vocal rider makes a gain adjustment causing the wave peaks are always aligned. But it's not exactly the same as a compressor could do? Someone could tell me if there is any significant difference between both?
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elsongs
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/23 18:24:28
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I don't think a vocal rider is necessary at all. You can do the same with volume envelope automation and some compression.
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cclarry
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/23 18:28:14
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☄ Helpfulby galeom 2016/09/24 11:28:12
Compressors, while they do "level" the signal to a certain extent, are more to add character to the vocal sound, and to bring the vocal "forward" in the mix, not for "leveling".
Vocal Rider basically automatically creates a volume "envelope" using "read ahead", based on the set parameters to keep the vocal "even" throughout the mix.
Old school (and I still do) you would go through the vocal first and write your own "envelope' using automation on the Volume Envelope to "level" the vocal based on the Waveform. Then, depending on how it "sits" in the mix, you'd bring in EQ's and Compressors to get it where you want it. That also makes it so the Compressor doesn't have to work as hard.
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Kamikaze
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/23 21:24:06
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Doesn't gain automation over volume automation provide a compressor a more consistent level to work on?
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bitflipper
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 09:23:01
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☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2016/09/24 11:09:57
Compressors were in fact the first "levelers". The "LA" in the LA2A compressor's name is an acronym for "Leveling Amplifier". Back in ancient times, before automation, leveling was a compressor's primary role. Many early compressors used in studios were actually re-purposed broadcast devices whose function was to maintain a consistent percentage of modulation while helping to prevent overmodulation, which could get you a fine from the FCC. Think of overmodulation prevention as analogous to clipping prevention in your DAW. Levelers such as Vocal Rider and Wave Rider are dynamics processors, and as such are by definition close relatives of compressors, although vendors of such plugins are quick to point out that they aren't the same thing. The difference is subtle, though. Compressors are non-linear and capable of fast response that can introduce harmonic distortion, which is the basis for Larry's assertion that they're useful for "color". That's true. But set a conventional compressor for very slow attack and release time and you'll get a similar results. To me, the definition of a leveler is a side-chainable compressor oriented toward very slow A/R envelopes. I've read some illogical attempts by people to justify their investment in levelers. Some argue that compressors only lower levels while a leveler goes both ways, but that's not true. The reason for parallel compression and makeup gain is to raise quiet parts while lowering loud parts. I've also seen arguments that compressors reduce dynamic range while levelers don't, but that's not true either - levelers do reduce dynamic range. Some say levelers don't color sound, and that's what makes them different. However, give a compressor a slow-enough attack and it will not color sound, either. And I'm not entirely sure that levelers don't have it in them to add coloration, when presented with sudden large level increases.
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Fleer
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 09:35:32
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Thanks Dave, learning bit by bit :)
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townstra
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 09:42:46
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I've frequently used vocal rider followed by compression, since they obviously do completely different things.
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cclarry
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 10:09:39
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Kamikaze Doesn't gain automation over volume automation provide a compressor a more consistent level to work on?
Gain is used for "Gain Staging"...setting the initial track "Gain" to hit a certain level on the VU Meter - typically -18 FS (DAW's by default use DBFS for the meters). It should be done on every track BEFORE the mixing process begins...
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Kamikaze
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 10:21:09
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☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2016/09/24 10:47:42
I never record long sections, so this isn't something I do, more read. But as gain staging is first in the chain, whereas fader riding is last and after and compressor. If you have a dynamic track, say where the it maxing at -18, but many sections of the track fall lower. Then gain automation can be used to bring up these sections, so they are more consistent to the compressor, then fader riding can be used post compressor to suit the dynamics of the track with a more consistent level to work from.
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yorolpal
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 11:11:42
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I use both compressors...usually two...AND Waves Vocal Rider on most vocals. Works great. I do the same...generally...on Bass with Bass a Rider. YMMV. PS...another trick I use frequently is, instead of writing a volume automation envelope on a vocal track, I simply play through the track and adjust the gain of phrases, words...even syllables using the "g" command and increasing or decreasing by dbs the signal. Of course another way to accomplish this in even greater detail is to do the same in Melodyne using the gain parameter. And I do that as well.
post edited by yorolpal - 2016/09/24 11:39:26
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BassDaddy
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 18:02:15
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Raise and lower phrases and even single note with Melodyne is also a good way to go. Good example in the Carlo Libertini/Warren Huart video posted in this Forum.
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cclarry
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 19:30:55
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Compressors were originally invented to squash Dynamic Range to get recordings to "fit" the DR of the Media...i.e Records. Their DR I believe was like 45 Db... coming from Tape, where it was higher
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 20:02:22
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TheSteven
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/24 20:28:10
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Compressing or limiting a vocal (or any track) just gives you more level consistency on that one track. It doesn't do anything to keep that track floating on top of a combination of other tracks or a mix that varies dynamically. Level riding be it manual or automated in some fashion is often what is takes for a vocal to stay in balance with a dynamically changing mix. Another technique is use something like that can create an automation curve for the vocal track based on the volume of the mix, for example.. http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_DPeakMeterPro/Probably could feed the output directly in a sidechain to control volume but I haven't tried it.
post edited by TheSteven - 2016/09/24 20:53:58
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Kamikaze
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/25 10:14:49
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Along the same lines as gain automation, there was talk and a think a feature request for RMS normalising. So you could go though each section and RMS normalise and the whole track would feel the same volume, before compressing.
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bitflipper
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Re: Vocal Rider vs Compressor
2016/09/25 15:39:55
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☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2016/09/25 16:12:44
Once upon a time, I believed that RMS normalization was the holy grail. I love fat harmonies that blend so well that you can't even pick out individual voices. (For reference, listen to the chorus on " Sweet Little Lies" by Fleetwood Mac.) For a long time it was a mystery to me how they achieved that. Logically, it made sense that if each voice was RMS-normalized to one another, that would do the trick. So I took a short piece out of a 4-part harmony section and very carefully adjusted their average RMS values - by hand - to within 0.5 dB of one another. Looking back, what I discovered should have been obvious, but nevertheless surprised me at the time. The vocal balance was worse than when I'd just tweaked them by ear. Duh. We don't perceive all frequencies the same, even if they're RMS-matched. A high harmony part might have to be as much as 6 dB below the main part to sound balanced. I didn't give up, though, but kept on trying stuff and reading about classic techniques. In the intervening years I've figured out that there simply is no way to automate this kind of thing. Turns out, vocal levels are highly subjective, depending on the vocalist's timbre, pitch, even lyrical content. And of course, what's going on behind the vocals that may or may not be masking them. This is why any automated leveling is only ever going to be partly successful, and will never obviate the need for manual tweaks. So how did they do it in "Sweet Little Lies"? Heavy compression, triple-tracking and manually-programmed volume automation.
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