Mintmog
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Volume issues, can anyone help?
Hi all,
I use Sonar 8.5 and master with Izotope Ozone 4
In Sonar the levels are as high as I can go. Any more and the finished product comes out distorted.
However, when I burn to CD and playback the volume of the whole disc is quieter than a normal album.
I mix down to 64 bit, sample rate 48000.
What can I do to get that extra volume without distortion?
Thanks
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daveny5
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 10:37:01
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CDs have to be 16bit, 44100 Hz.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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MatsonMusicBox
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 10:53:25
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"Loudness" is a mastering issue - first - don't mix as "high as you can go" in SONAR ... generally leave 2-3 db of headroom.
The "loudness" is going to come from compression/limiting in Ozone - specifically with a combination of the multi-band limiter and the final "loudness" limiter. Commercial mixes tend to be around -8 to -11 average RMS these days depending on the type music. I shoot for the middle of that range for most of my stuff.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 10:54:42
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Start with reading Ozones mastering guide.
Ozone is the one that should take care of the final level.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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Mintmog
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 11:17:15
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Thanks everyone, would it really make a difference if I mix down in 16 bit/44.1 ??
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Mintmog
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 11:18:53
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MatsonMusicBox
"Loudness" is a mastering issue - first - don't mix as "high as you can go" in SONAR ... generally leave 2-3 db of headroom.
The "loudness" is going to come from compression/limiting in Ozone - specifically with a combination of the multi-band limiter and the final "loudness" limiter. Commercial mixes tend to be around -8 to -11 average RMS these days depending on the type music. I shoot for the middle of that range for most of my stuff.
Meant to say the 'high as you can go' comment as after Ozone, but you're right thanks
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 11:23:33
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However, when I burn to CD and playback the volume of the whole disc is quieter than a normal album. I mix down to 64 bit, sample rate 48000. What can I do to get that extra volume without distortion?
Read up on audio mastering Read the mastering guide that comes with ozone. Lots of good info in there
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 11:54:05
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Mintmog
Thanks everyone, would it really make a difference if I mix down in 16 bit/44.1 ??
What do you mean by this, actually? If you've been using 64 bit/48 Khz do you mean you have exported the project to a wav-file of those specs or that those are the project settings when you mix? Or is it a typo, do you actually mean 24/48, which is commonly used good choice to export the stereo wav- file which is then separately mastered?
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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bitflipper
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 12:10:29
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In Sonar the levels are as high as I can go. Any more and the finished product comes out distorted. However, when I burn to CD and playback the volume of the whole disc is quieter than a normal album. This has nothing to do with sample rates or 24 versus 32 versus 64 bits. As noted above, your ultimate format has to be 44.1KHz 16 bits in order to conform to CD standards. I'm guessing you're using some other software to prepare the files for burning, such as CD Architect or Adobe Audition, or maybe a separate SONAR project. Can you explain your process for going from 64-bit 48KHz to a CD? Part of your problem may be that you're maximizing volume at the wrong stage in the process. Understand that perceived volume depends on averages, not peaks. Ozone's role in all this is to raise the average volume while making sure the peaks are not excessive. We can advise you on how to accomplish that, but only if you describe the complete process. What comes out of SONAR initially? Is it 48/64? If so, how does it get to 44/16?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Mintmog
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 12:49:54
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bitflipper
In Sonar the levels are as high as I can go. Any more and the finished product comes out distorted. However, when I burn to CD and playback the volume of the whole disc is quieter than a normal album.
This has nothing to do with sample rates or 24 versus 32 versus 64 bits. As noted above, your ultimate format has to be 44.1KHz 16 bits in order to conform to CD standards.
I'm guessing you're using some other software to prepare the files for burning, such as CD Architect or Adobe Audition, or maybe a separate SONAR project. Can you explain your process for going from 64-bit 48KHz to a CD? Part of your problem may be that you're maximizing volume at the wrong stage in the process.
Understand that perceived volume depends on averages, not peaks. Ozone's role in all this is to raise the average volume while making sure the peaks are not excessive. We can advise you on how to accomplish that, but only if you describe the complete process. What comes out of SONAR initially? Is it 48/64? If so, how does it get to 44/16?
I record in Sonar obviously, use Ozone within Sonar to master. Mix down to a 64-bit 48,000 sample rate WAV file.
This may be where I'm going wrong though.
I import the WAV's into my iTunes to burn a disc.
I thought the higher rate WAV's would make a better file and iTunes was the only way to get it onto a CD.
Is that wrong??
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MatsonMusicBox
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2010/07/12 13:12:06
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If you don't have a separate mastering app, you should save from SONAR as a 44/16 file - using one of the POWr dithering options
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dennisp
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/02 20:07:43
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I have a similar issue-I record and mix in sonar 8.5 then burn to a stereo file at 44/16. I then listen to the stereo mix-the perceived volume is the same as the mixdown volume. I have used the cd burning programs in sonar, pyro, nero and Windows media to then burn the stereo mix to disc and resulting audio is quieter no matter which program I use to burn to disc. The resulting perceived volume drop is very noticeable and can really detract from the finished product.
any suggestions would be appreciated..
dennis
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/03 05:34:05
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Firstly, it would have been better to start a thread of your own instead of waking up a five years old thread.
In the struggle to get a "commercial" level final wav it does not matter what you hear, because what you hear depends on the position of the volume knob. You have to look at the level readings. What you burn on a CD surely is exactly as loud as the original wav, there's no volume adjusting involved in the burning process. Also, comparing the volume of a CD played by Windows Media Player to that of the project played back in SONAR is meaningless.
The perceived volume is most accurately shown by the RMS volume level, which is the average. IIRC the RMS of around - 6 - -12 dB dB is somewhat OK (others please correct if I remember wrong). SONARs track meters can show RMS as well, IIRC. The peak volumes are practically meaningless. High RMS levels are reached for example by
1) Volume automation on individual tracks when necessary
2) Compression and EQ on individual tracks
3) Compression/EQ/Limiting according to need when finishing the mix and exporting/mastering
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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TremoJem
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/03 06:37:43
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Or is it a typo, do you actually mean 24/48, which is commonly used good choice to export the stereo wav- file which is then separately mastered?
Maybe that is where I made my mistake. I typically master without exporting. I tried it once and did not realize a benefit, but I did not export at 24/48...or I don't think I did. I will have to revisit this.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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tlw
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/03 07:40:47
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Why on earth record, mix or master audio at 64bit depth?
No audio interface can record or play back at anything like that bit depth, 24 bits is the usual interface maximum (and minimum). All 64 bit audio achieves is filling up huge amounts of disk space with padding-out zeros for no gain at all.
Unless you mean you run 64 bit Windows and 64 bit Sonar, which is quite a different thing to recording at 64 bit depth.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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lfm
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/03 08:28:07
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I'm leaning towards ReplayGain as well.
Some have a setting to use it when burning, "if available", as they put it - if there is a field in WAV header or something. But that would mean it depends on Sonar to some degree - don't know how that works. But there is something called Album Gain and Track Gain and you can select in burner if to use it.
Other software use it when ripping CD's - so you have to turn that stuff off in settings if not to alter CD's from original too much. I guess a lot of people rip for mp3's for their mobile devices and might want them adjusted.
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dennisp
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Re:Volume issues, can anyone help?
2015/04/04 19:00:15
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Kalle, thank you for your reply. here is what happens-I record and mix a project in Sonar. Once I have mixed and I have gotten it to the volume level I want, I mix it to a stereo track and then I listen to it thru windows media player.
I usually find that the volume level is still good and then I burn it to CD. I then listen to the cd thru windows media player thru the same system without touching a knob or making any adjustment of any kind and I find the volume to be lower to my ears--by a noticeable amount. I can take the stereo mix that I used to burn the cd and import it back into sonar and the volume is good again-same as it was in the original mixdown again all thru the same system. So it seems to me that I am doing something in the burning process that is dropping the volume.
that is what puzzles me
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