Vox Delay? where is it coming from?

Everything was fine until I tried adding Perfect Space to a guitar buss (not the vox) to blend a couple of trax. 
At least that's about when the weirdness started. 
I also tried a sonitus FX reverb on the guitar buss when P.S. seemed to affect the vox instead. but it didn't help.
The problem is an echo on (only a certain number of) my vocal track clips..a pre-echo actually on a couple of them, that happens before the actual vocal.
I deleted Perfect Space  and the other reverb and re-ran sonar but it's still there.
I closed and reopened the file (Now it says Guitar and Master are set to a silent Out but that's not true)
Still no change to the clips in question.
Another clue is- if i solo the track there is no echo. So it must have to do with another track or buss?
I copied the file to a new track - no joy.
I bypassed the vocal buss to the master but it's still there on these certain clips.
I bounced but it's still there.(Control Z back)

I think the guitar trax seem quieter now too- if that's a clue.
The only link i can think of between the guitars and vox is I have a side chain to duck the guitars under the vox but muting that doesn't help.
Any ideas where the echo is coming from?
Would a jpg of my console help?
Glenn

Except I deleted the plug so where is it coming from now?

Ok another thought and probably the biggest clue.
I muted all the tracks individually but I can still hear them!!
(Not if I do the "master" mute at the top..that works normally)
There is some kind of bypass going on on the tracks.
So in fact the only way to get this to sound normal is literally to mute ALL the tracks at the track level.
And it still plays -but with no echo

You do seem to have offset mode enabled according to your posted pic.

Thanks guys
I tried hitting O for offset but it still does it.
Dim solo not on.. besides why would it just do a few clips and not the whole track?
Can you be more specific about a send to buss being open?

More info.. If I move the echoing clips away from the position (to the end of the track) they don't echo.
It's as if only these clips, and only if in a certain position in the time line are affected.
If I clone the track, it does the same thing.
If I bring the original wave file in, it does the same thing.
If I mute the track it still plays but without the echo.

The other tracks do not echo at that postion

BTW is there a way to move the envelopes with the track? The volume envelope stays where it was.

Thanks Mike.
at least I know this can happen.
I don't know what you mean by a PDC managed plugin but I'll remember Perfect Space.

TY SB....that's what I was reffering to Glenn... I would also restart the sound engine.

Last resort would be to revert back to an older stored version of the song before the problem started?

Hi Glenn,

Latency is determined by two factors:

• Your audio interface (total round-trip latency)
• Any "latent" plugins (Convolution or Mastering style plugins are commonly latent) add additional latency

If a latent plugin is inserted *anywhere* in the project, Sonar's automatic PDC (plugin delay compensation) will delay all other audio to maintain sync.
You can globally disable PDC in the transport section of the Control Bar.  This is useful if you need to record additional tracks after latent plugins have been inserted in the project.

As Mike mentioned, it's good practice to avoid latent plugins while composing/tracking.

Audio engine ,is the proper word. ( my bad, not sound engine ) :) http://img51.imageshack.u...1/6412/audioengine.jpg I also had troubble with S.I.R reverb with delay after deleting it from the FX bin. that caused delay,even if there was no Plugin there. Then i had to reset the Audio engine by turning it off, and go to settings and audio to reconfig it and hit apply. Then the problem was gone. I am not sure if that will help you, but it's worth a try ! http://imageshack.us/phot...85/driversettings.jpg/

Thanks for persisting. 
This is so odd but I'm learning lots of stuff in the meantime. The audio engine has no affect in this case as it changes color back when I hit play. (is that normal?)
Thanks for the visuals. Mine all seem fine by all those notes.
I killed all busses and turned off all FX and deleted all envelopes, restarted several times.
Nothing changes this.
So odd that ALL trax play in this area seeing as I only have the one track on the time line now.
I have a work-around on this, so I'm going to bail on it.
(the work around is to move all the trax along the time line to get beyond the infected areas.)

Ah gee whiz... we know what is causing it.

It was the look ahead latency compensation, other wise known a Plugin Delay Compensation or PDC getting baked into the project when the Perfect Space was used.

When the instance of Perfect Space was removed the Plugin Delay compensation didn't fully release and now you have a weird timing and trigger glitch going on.

The very best thing you can do is send that corrupt project to Noel and let him dig in to the internals so he can see what's up.




This issue has been going on for 10 years plus. It's just part of the SONAR experience.

I use the work around I recommended above because you have to avoid the problem rather than hope to fix it.

I figure that the PDC operation is some of the most complicated aspect of SONAR, and I appreciate it when it works because frankly a DAW without functional PDC is no fun to use... it would suck to not have PDC... so this one little issue is something I'm willing to work around.

As I say, I sure wish Cakewalk would spend more resources on this type of stuff than making new add-on gadgets to give away for 1/2 price.



The PDC stuff is important.



Oh BTW, the easiest way to turn the audio engine on and off is too simply restart SONAR. If that doesn't make the problem go away... then you know you got a problem. Simples.


all the best,
mike

I want to thank you all for chipping in on this.
The description about PDC getting baked into the project when the Perfect Space was used sounds right. Nothing is going to make this go away.
Because there is a solution (moving the clips further down the time line) and because this is not for money, I'm fine with it. 
Obviously I won't be using Perfect Space again tho Scott G indicates it is at the top of the line as far as included reverbs. (The reason I gave it a try)

Re: "send that corrupt project to Noel". 
I trust that would be Cakewalk?
Any instruction on how to get all the relevant files sent?
I assume the project file, but aren't there other files too? Audio & wave graphics?
These might be large. I assume an email attachment would not work.

Hi there
Q/ did you by any chance insert the perfect space reverb whilst playing the project?
This can cause glitches in Sonar.

Now, just an idea;
If you do the proposed workaround solution of moving all your track along the timeline, out of the way of the offending section of measures, you could try 'selecting' from 'start' to 2 measures before the new start position, and then deleting all measures.
This may get rid of the problem in your project.

Good idea Wildman. I'll give that a try after sending it to CW.
At this point I simply set up a loop around the song.
I can't recall how I installed the plug but yes, I often install plugs and prochannel presets while playing.
Now I can see how that might cause this time shifting thing due to PDC confusion.

Would this be just for the more sophisticated plugs? 
Or would you advise to always stop the playback before changes?