WAV to CD Where does the volume go? [SOLVED]

I'm having a hard time getting decent CD's produced. I have lots of level in Sonar and lots of level in the WAV output on export. When I burn the CD it seems like I'm losing about 6db of level. I have tried Nero and Audio creator with strange results. Nero is giving distorted output and Audio creator is losing 6db. I'm hoping there's some basic thing that I'm missing.
 
Any ideas?

Make sure you aren't reducing the level on export by accident.

Also, double check to make sure there isn't some sort of Auto-Level being applied where the app making the CD estimates the average volume of the tracks and then adjusts the absolute level so the average level is around the same.

It's beyond annoying. I'm sure that many people have this issue. I tend to agree with the comments about the conversion program doing something behind the scenes. The source material has a large dynamic range where the peaks and RMS levels are quite different. The only plug I'm using is a limiter on the master buss. I need the limiter to allow me to pull up the average sound level while preventing overload on peaks. 
 
It's almost like Cakewalk Audio Creator is using the peaks as a reference while Nero is using the RMS levels. This one issue is my biggest problem when using Sonar. The files are clean and punchy with a max output level of -1 db yet I can't create a CD that's loud enough to listen to in a car.
 
I'm working on an audio book so being able to listen in the car is almost mandatory. I should also add that this issue also applies to MP3 files. Anything I create using Sonar's export audio function seems to have a low output level.

Ribbon mics are my favorite discovery and you don't have to buy expensive ones. The cheap ones are great too... especially when you aren't taking them on the road.

Sorry, I think I was looking at a different thread when I posted that. Not sure how I got my wires crossed.

I am just letting you know from another angle.  I am exporting from Studio One.  But also performing very final mastering edits in Adobe Audition.  I feel that the editing programs seem to have the final say on reference levels leaving it.
 
I have tested levels from Wave files leaving my DAW compared to CD burning. I am seeing no level changes at all.  My CD burn produces exact reference levels when I burn them.  I am using an earlier version of Nero on my XP machine and CD Burner XP on my Win 7 machine and it is the same.
 
So no level changes for me, if I master a CD to -10 dB rms average then the CD plays back at the same level. (Note: I have calibrated the output from my CD player to match levels that are on my digital mixer.  If anything the CD is 2 dB higher on my system and I have to drop it down 2 db.  But no clipping or distortion anywhere.)  If I limit Xenon to -0.5 dB FS in mastering, that is exactly how the CD is burned and if it were ripped back to a wave file again.  I have checked.
 
It may come down to how well you are pumping up your rms levels during mastering.  I use PSP Xenon as my limiter and it has no problems reaching levels as high as -6 to -8 dB rms, but this represents a very loud master.  I find levels between -10 and -12 mastered rms seem to match a lot of commercial levels in my car for example.  Although some commercial CD's can be insanely loud, but then they sound horrible.
 
CD burns should at least should match your levels leaving your DAW/Interface. Not dropping them down.
 
 

For an audio book I would be aiming for a very even voice level in the final master.  For the reasons you have  already mentioned. Playback environments will vary a lot.  And you want to hear the voice clearly all the time.  The way to this is to edit the initial recording.
 
I would record the wide range of input sounds/levels.  Capture all that without clipping.  eg  (use K System level of -20 as the reference)  Maybe even tame the dynamic range going into the DAW a little by acting only on loud peaks first e.g. limiting with high threshold setting.
 
Then I go in and cut the vocal read into smaller segments.  Studio One makes changing clip gain like this on individual audio events easy and possible.  Also as the waveform height does change as you change gain, this end up being a really handy feature for roughly evening up vocal phrases by eye.  Looking at the rms or meat of the sound.  Louder phrases down a little and softer ones up.  You don't even everything up either.  That sounds unnatural.  Preserve some of the initial dynamic range read, just reduce it.  A long read takes less time than you think to do this process.
 
Then you put a compressor over the whole track but you are now feeding in a much more consistent rms levels for each phrase.   Add some makeup gain there.  Light compression settings here.  Like 2:1 max ratio and only 2 to 3 dB gain reduction too. 
 
By the time you hit your limiter and add further 3 dB or so of rms level, you will be sounding very loud on your CD.
 
Forget preserving the dynamic range of the initial read.  That is not the point of the exercise.  It is better to create a very clear voice over read.  All the emotion can be put in at various levels,  but the same emotion can still be conveyed when all the vocal phrasing is much more even in level.  The editing extends far beyond the read itself.  I like to add a final touch EQ and even add a very small room reverb at a very low level to just add some depth the to vocal sound too.  This reverb should not even be obvious.  If there is music and effects under,  then that requires balancing too.  (Small mono speaker at low volume works wonders here !!)
 
 

I've been on this project since January. My number 1 consideration was to get good, clear audio with no clipping. I I've managed to  do this. Initially tried to get the RMS levels up but it was always a failure due to clipping. 
This guy has a huge voice and like many singers he tends to build up air and then let loose. This may be great when singing, but when reading, every sentence starts out with a very high level that drops off as the sentence ends. I've explained the issue and shown him the waveforms but it's just the way he rolls. He's also doing some animated voicing and using mic proximity as an effect. It's much harder than any music I've recorded. When you are a rookie recording a guy who has 15 albums under his belt it's difficult to act as engineer and producer.
 
I thank you all for the continued feedback and you patience. Don't bail on me, I'll figure it out.

IIRC, you had a thread regarding Nectar Elements a while back (not sure if you got Nectar 2). Have you tried out the Voice Over presets with that?

Depending on the sheer length of audio you are working with, the free 30-day trial of Audition CC may also be something to try, since they have a "match level" batch process that is highly tailorable. If you try that, be sure to save the project to a new folder first, then you can process all files "in place" so that it is transparent to the SONAR project. The onesy-twosy clip matching is a PITA when there are batch functions available and you have hours of material to process.

No Cinematic mixing is not about being a bad or not so proper mix.  It is more about a technique they are using for a lot of TV series as well as movies these days.  The dialogue seems to be more spread over a wider range of levels.  Music and effects are often very loud compared to dialogue.  They are taking the soundtrack over a wider range of levels these days I think.  It can be a bit distracting too. 
 
An audio book I would imagine would need to have a fairly constant voice level.  Something that is a bit different to cinematic mixing. 
 
I once recorded an African singer who also had a huge range too.  He started very loud often and then changed as the dynamics flowed enormously.  I ended up using a limiter on the way in with a high threshold to just catch the loud bits and set them all to a nice even level.  It worked well.  It was easy then to edit all the other stuff relative to that. 
 
 

I'm late to this thread.  But (1) I use Nero BurningROM for all my audio CD burning and have never had a distortion problem.  (2) I use Ozone (5 or 6) to "master" and then I always check the levels with Goldwave (audio editor) so all the songs, when burned to a CD, are the same level.  I've seen a lot of audio CD's, even commercial audio CD's, where the songs play at different volume levels and that is not desired.

It is obvious they now have the dynamic range in the audio soundtrack storage/playback medium plus the sound system to deliver it as well. They are just over doing it, that is all now. The dynamic range could be pulled back in nicely and the whole thing set to a much nicer overall volume.  Music and effects can still fell like there is power behind them.  That can still be achieved with a different overall mix.  And making sure the dialogue is clear and easy to hear All the time.  Stop getting too smart turning down dialogue and making it all match the vision in total perspective. i.e. if someone moves away or to one side etc.. let the vision reflect those things, dialogue can still be kept very audible and clear.  Changes to the dialogue sound can still be possible e.g. from further away etc but these changes only have to be subtle.
 
You did not have to sit through the whole thing being prepared for loud volume shifts and be ready to protect ourselves back when the soundtracks were being stored in analog form perhaps on the film. They probably had to limit the dynamic range a little there.  Yes the theatre sound systems were bigger and louder, but it used to be a bit more even in the past.  The music, dialog and effects were all very nicely balanced and the whole overall level a little higher than in the home but that was the excitement of going to the cinema perhaps.  As well as the much larger image.
 
If kids movies soundtracks today are like this new cinematic mix approach, then maybe we are subjecting our younger generation to overly loud and dynamic soundtracks. Is that good? They are getting enough volume blasting their ears now from other sources. 
 
I wonder how ampfixer is going with his voice over recording.  It can be challenging at times.  Even before the playback medium, the production is pretty important and will have a big impact as to how the final master will sound. Sounds to me like the first challenge will be to level out this particular voice over person he is recording. Keeping the character of that person's voice intact but making all the phrases a little more even. Before that track even hits its compressor for some final conditioning, this has to be sorted out. 

it WAS an newbie mistake,
but one i've made before..
 
maybe we overshoot things sometimes on the 'help' scale,
but obviously a few people wanted to see you get it right.
 
carry on,
and never tell this story.