Wall of Sound

Danny Danzi


Hi Matt,

Well, there are quite a few ways you can do this. It all depends what your "wall of sound" involves. You mentioned "modern" in your other thread, so I'm going to assume you're talking guitars being the wall of sound with other enhancement instruments? I'm hoping I'm correct there.

There are a few bands that do this really well with keyboards being involved. It adds that little extra power going on. The other way to do it is with a few guitars. Some playing octaves, some with a haas effect or even a slight chorus effect with panning being the thing that fills up the holes as well as different sounds with a different eq curve. In my opinion, the use of compression isn't the key here. It's all in the sound placement as well as the sounds themselves creating the wall.

For example, Good Charlotte had a tune called "I don't wanna be in Love" that was awesome with layering and that wall of sound. They added a load of guitars and keys that made the tune incredibly rockin' yet with this awesome dance feel to it. The layers on that tune as well as the quality still blow me away today. It was a great use of keys and heavily driven guitars. It never quits and bombards you with that wall of sound.

Another band that did this rather well is a newer band called Escape The Fate. They do a song called "Gorgeous Nightmare" which has this same type of vibe to it. You can check out the song here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2K8PP0OJE

I had a client come to see me a few weeks ago that wanted to cover that song. We were unable to find any backing tracks for it at this time, so he made me record the entire thing. My version isn't quite done yet, but I want to share it with you because it's not done yet.

In their version, you hear keys and sound effects all over the place. I haven't done that yet other than the farty bass sound which I'm not done with either as it needs more decay and a real bass will be added to it over top. I have a load of work to do on this song (as well as the gentleman that is going to come and sing it) but my reason for sharing it is, listen to the guitars on the pre-chorus and chorus parts. The layering here is what I *think* you may be after. You mentioned Muse and how they were just using 2 guitars, bass, drums etc..and this in my opinion, is a good representation of that considering how stripped down my version of this song is right now.

It's 2 guitars, synth bass, drums that I played on my V Drums kit using Steven Slate 4.0 and 2 more rhythm guitars that come in during the pre's and the chorus. If something like this is what you're after, let me know and I'll explain the process to you, ok? Here's the link to my unfinished mp3: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyGorgeousNightmareMaster16.mp3

It's raw, so forgive me...but for as raw as it is, I think it came out pretty good at this point even when I compare it to the original. Once I add all the right stuff, tweak the mix a little and add some room so it doesn't sound as direct, this is going to sound pretty cool....at least that's what I'm hoping. :) But the guitar layers almost give you the impression that a synth was used if you listen close. Yet, the only synth is the farty bass sound. Now imagine some good synths over top of those guitars in a higher key like they did in theirs...it's going to build up really nice. See what you think...and like I said, if something like that is what you're after, I'll share how I got it. If I totally blew this and misinterprated what you were asking, please accept my apology for wasting your time brother.

-Danny

mattplaysguitar


Hey Danny, have not had a chance to listen to those samples yet as I'm at work but will when I get home.

That pretty much sounds like what I'm going for! So would love to hear what you have to say.

All of my choruses (primarily the spot I want the wall) have guitar - usually clean or maybe just a hint of grunge. I'm generally staying away from distorted guitars except for lead parts. But that's unrelated to this topic at hand! I do like the idea of single string distorted guitars in the upper end to fill that area if need by, but for the low stuff I'm generally trying to stay pretty clean. I then usually have either an organ (Dim Pro), piano (TruePiano) or some strings (Studio Instruments - Strings). Have not used it in a chorus yet, but maybe the E-Piano as well. All the midi parts I'm writing them in the appropriate octaves to fill out the appropriate frequency bands. Vocals are obviously centre of attention so not too concerned about what these guys are sounding like as such, as long as they are just doing their job to fill in the spaces appropriately.

One example I'm playing round with has a pretty bouncy piano part. Just hitting major chords to the beat of the drums. Guitar is doing the same thing. My keys span 3 octaves (not actually possible to play by one player). They take the low mids well. I have them panned L. Then two guitar parts. I'm using an Epiphone Standard and just recording one take on rhythm and one on treble. Rhythm goes slightly right and treble fairly hard right. It's tricky to balance out the panning on those low mids so I fill both the sides and centre. I imagine I might use some multiband panning if I need to so everything sits right, but I'd rather not if I don't have to. But any ideas on more effective ways to set up things so they sound balanced would be nice. I mean, I don't particularly want to be needing 5 guitars, but if that's what it takes, I'll do it! I feel if you are layering too much things might start going backwards.

Anywho, rambling again as usual... Please continue!

Trimph1, I actually liked that one! The really simple drone sound I feel would work better for me. I listened to the Alien one too and at least for my music, the youtube sample I heard wouldn't work at all, but I didn't have a chance to fully see what it can do. Is it really versatile and can you get the similar sounds to trimph1's droner with it if you wanted to?

mattplaysguitar


Sure, Danny. I'll try post up a sample this weekend.

And I have one, two and maybe even three songs on my album which may actually go fairly heavy in sections, so it probably wouldn't be a waste of time! But the fact that those would be more temporary means I can get away with less wall sound and just the change into distortion in the first place is going to do a lot for the dynamics considering the rest of the album will be cleaner.

Just a quick one, how many guitars have you used in a single massive layering before? I could imagine aside from bass, two left, two right and maybe one centre would be more than anyone would ever need. Have you gone bigger before?


But I did intend this thread to be just a general Wall of Sound thread, so I'm all for any style of music here :) I'd love to hear other styles especially for future reference when I may be working with other artists (which I expect to do a lot of once I finish my album - I'm sick of writing my own stuff!!!)

Danny Danzi


Ok Jonesey, here's what I did to get that sound. It's 4 guitars. Two recordings of me playing the same part. I compress them on each channel at 4:1 removing about -2dB of gain reduction, set attack and release to taste to work in time with the music, high pass at 120hz. Slight cut about -1.5 or -2dB at 320 hz, boost of +1.8 at 5k for a little sizzle.

Recorded two more guitars playing an octave of what I play in the pre-chorus and chorus parts with a stereo chorus from my processor destructively because nothing else can get this particular chorus. So I record the left side with the chorus on, and then the right side and each side of the chorus will waver differently so it will add to the stereo effect as well as my human timing inconsistencies. Pans at 75/75.

Same eq curve but on this I remove -3dB of 320, boost 6k to +3dB so these really sizzle. Compression the same but this time we remove -6dB of gain so these are super tight and consistent. I want them even with no dynamics like a synth would be if it were in there. The volume difference between the main rhythm guitars and the octave guitars is -2.5 dB. The main guitars are at -5.5 dB the octaves are -7.5 dB. So they just layer with the main guitars without competing with them. You're left with a little sizzle that almost sounds like keys playing due to the octaves I'm doing there. Because they aren't dominant, they mix in so well, it barely sounds like there are 2 more guitars...but when you listen close or you hear the verse come back...you can notice something is missing. So in this situation, the octave guitars where my orchestration pieces.

From there all 4 guitars are sent to a bus. On the bus you can use the 4k bus compressor or in my case, I use a UAD Precision bus comp that I absolutely adore because it just shines for stuff like this unlike anything else I've ever heard for layering. 2:1 ratio, not sure what attack I used...release was on auto.

This may sound a little tricky. Forgive me if I confuse you here...but I'll do the best I can to explain this part. I create an effects bus and put a small room impulse on it using Pristine Space. After PS is either an 1176 comp or an LA2A to squash this really good. The good thing about the impulse here is we can pan it using the send pans on each track it's sent to. If we had a verb here instead, it doesn't allow us to pan on the send pan. 

Ok, so we have the main guitar panned at like say 85 left. I send this squashed impulse to that track and set the pan on the send on the track to 60% and mix it in via the send level just until I start to hear the sound of the impulse which is feeding off of the guitar panned at 85L. When I start to hear it work it's way right into the 60% pan field, I stop. This makes the sound appear larger than it is.

I do the same to the guitar on the other side so it too grows a bit in size. So in theory, we have two guitar sounds that simulate like they are the size of 85 L to 60 L on one side, 85 R and 60 R on the other. Take the impulse away and the guitar sounds like it is sitting dead on 85 instead of having a size from 85 to 60, understand?

Once I have that in place, I either use the PC eq or drop a Sonitus on that effects bus that has the impulse and compressor and I eq it to fit the sound of the guitars. I'll high pass until it removes the blanket part of the room and sounds more natural. I'll mess with mids and some high end to get the best sound I can get because this little eq is going to taylor how this effect presents itself.

After all this is done, I'll go back to the main guitar bus and check on the Precision bus comp that's on there and may tweak things a bit further to tighten it up or maybe even open it up a bit if it's sounding restricted. Then, I may play around with another eq on this main guitar bus to eq the 4 sounds as an entity. You know...sort of like mastering them to really shine...and that's it.

Hope you can make sense of that...if not, just ask me and I'll try to confuse help you the best that I can. :)
 
-Danny

Bristol_Jonesey


Wow Danny - nice & detailed, and I can follow it all, no problemo.

I guess, and this should have been a forethought rather than an afterthought, but it reinforces just how imperative it is to get your guitar (strings/tone/setup) > Amp/sim/cab > Mic(?) fairly close to this type of sound before even hitting 'R'

And do these guys use drop tuning?

I bet they're not using sims - probably 5150's miked up or similar yes?

Danny Danzi

Bristol_Jonesey


Wow Danny - nice & detailed, and I can follow it all, no problemo.

I guess, and this should have been a forethought rather than an afterthought, but it reinforces just how imperative it is to get your guitar (strings/tone/setup) > Amp/sim/cab > Mic(?) fairly close to this type of sound before even hitting 'R'

And do these guys use drop tuning?

I bet they're not using sims - probably 5150's miked up or similar yes?

Whew...glad you understood that. :)
 
Yes, you must have a sound that is close coming out of the gate or you will either waste loads of time trying to cop it or just fall short. Yeah, strings, tone, set-up amps, mic cab, sim...whatever you got, you gotta work it. As for mic vs sim...with my rig, I can't tell the difference between mic'n it or sim'n it...the core of my tone is always the same. The only time I hear a difference is if I use two mics on my rig. Like maybe a 57 on one speaker and a 421 on another or some sort of mutli-mic thing. But to be honest, my speaker sim sound (supplied with my tube pre-amp) is what I like to use because it's consistent and really does sound nearly the same as when I throw a single 57 on my cab.
 
They could be using amp sims....they are so good today, it's tough to tell. I can tell you this much...if you search Youtube for that band doing that song live, their live amp tones suck compared to the recoring. Very high endy and abrasive where the album has a lot more good mid range. The tone is way different too. So you never know.
 
Yes on the tuning. They are down to C on that song and so was I. That's how I tune all the time, so I'm stuck there anyway. LOL!
 
-Danny